Demons lack a core

[e25 5]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/demons-lack-a-core-worries-brad-green/story-e6frf9jf-1225846674466

Green is exaclty right; more than poor coaching or gameplans, our biggest problem is our middle tier senior players.

This is partly due to substandard recruiting during the Daniher era (keeping in mind Daniher was not the recruiter, but our ladder position did affect this at times) and partly due to the ones we retained that have shown promise, just haven't come on like we'd expect. We've been very very unfortunate in having a consistently terrible 'list composition' which I think has harmed development. The only way to counter this is with bonafide superstars that write their own ticket.

I also think a few players were underdone qnd some other older senior players have never been what they are made out to be, but the middle tier is killing us and it shouldn't be a surprise. They're the whole reason we bad to go through a rebuild, we already know this, so why is anyone up in arms?

We are years away from being consistently good. In the meantime we have to be content with patches, and like Bailey says, work on making hose patches more frequent until it is a consistent performance.

Boom.

[Craig Drinker 179]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/demons-lack-a-core-worries-brad-green/story-e6frf9jf-1225846674466

Green is exaclty right; more than poor coaching or gameplans, our biggest problem is our middle tier senior players.

This is partly due to substandard recruiting during the Daniher era (keeping in mind Daniher was not the recruiter, but our ladder position did affect this at times) and partly due to the ones we retained that have shown promise, just haven't come on like we'd expect. We've been very very unfortunate in having a consistently terrible 'list composition' which I think has harmed development. The only way to counter this is with bonafide superstars that write their own ticket.

I also think a few players were underdone qnd some other older senior players have never been what they are made out to be, but the middle tier is killing us and it shouldn't be a surprise. They're the whole reason we bad to go through a rebuild, we already know this, so why is anyone up in arms?

We are years away from being consistently good. In the meantime we have to be content with patches, and like Bailey says, work on making hose patches more frequent until it is a consistent performance.

Boom.

Which players in particular do you believe Green would be referring to?

[Nasher 33,617]

Which players in particular do you believe Green would be referring to?

These are the players I'd put in the "middle aged core" of the side that played:

1. Matthew Warnock

7. Brad Miller

22. Brent Moloney

27. Jared Rivers

28. Joel Macdonald

36. Aaron Davey

40. Mark Jamar

Anyone disagree that these are the players that we need more from?

The issue is that the amount of raw talent in that list of players is pretty ordinary. Davey is the only one with any potential to be a match winner, and he's not able to consistently influence the outcomes of matches. The rest are all just components of the team at best, and filler at worst. As long as this list of players remains the 'core' of the side, our side is going to be garbage. It's not until the talent we've got that are currently babies (Grimes, Morton in the first instance, Scully, Trengove, Watts in the second instance) and these blokes become the 'old' that our side is going to be consistently good. In short, Green is absolutely right in that our core stinks, but I don't think it's as simple as them 'standing up'.

The other thing of note is that that appears to be a very small group. I'd love to see how that compares to sides that are currently 'up' like Geelong, St. Kilda, Collingwood etc.

Just as a footnote, I'd include Green, Bruce and McDonald in the "old blokes" category rather than "core". Even including them as "core" doesn't raise the talent quota all that much.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Which players in particular do you believe Green would be referring to?

The same players that "demonland" posters talk up time and time again.

Bate, Warnock, Macdonald, Dunn, Miller.

Bruce was deplorable on the weekend too.

[Nasher 33,617]

The same players that "demonland" posters talk up time and time again.

Bate, Warnock, Macdonald, Dunn, Miller.

Bruce was deplorable on the weekend too.

Nobody in their right mind would include Dunn when talking about the core of the team. And those players are not the players I'd say get talked up in general on Demonland.

[JACKATTACK 17]

Which players in particular do you believe Green would be referring to?

Some of our earlier picks from the offending years.

2006 Frawley 12, Petterd 30

2005 Jones 12

2004 Bate 13 , Dunn 15

2003 Sylvia 3 , Mclean 5

2002 Bell 14, Smith 15

2001 Molan 9, Armstrong 25, Rogers 26

2000 S.Thompson 16 (traded for Moloney)

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

27. Jared Rivers

Sorry Nash,

But I really would like to know peoples thoughts on Rivers game?

I thought he was easily our best in the first half. He went on to make some mistakes but

he was spoiling everything. Our only accountable running backman. He showed some aggression

when it got tough and he was using the ball well most of the time.

What are people's thoughts on his game?

[Guest Thomo]

"The younger and older players seem to be going all right, but I think it is the second-tier players who need to come good,"

The younger and older players have not had a large part of their development under the current coach. Green, McDonald Bruce and Davey are too old to change. Scully, Trengrove, Grimes, Strauss have not had three years of confusion. Give them a couple of years and that might change.

How many players have met or exceeded development expectations under Dean Bailey? The players that have improved are Sylvia, Frawley, Morton - All high draft picks, we should expect quite a bit from them, they have not exceeded my expectations. Players that have not met my expectations over the last three years - Dunn, Miller, Newton, Bate, Bartram, Bell, Johnson, Maric, Martin, Rivers, Warnock, Bell, Meeson, Jamar.

It’s easy to say that that they are no good and never will be. But I want to know why they are no good. Why does Newton have no clue on the field? Why are Maric, Miller, Newton, Rivers, Frawley terrible kicks? Why has Rivers or Bate not impoved since their first years? (after watching Bate in his first season I thought he would be a superstar by this age). Why has Jamar only played about 3 good games by the age of 26? Why do Johnson and Dunn not know how to use their size?

If these questions are not answered, I do not hold much hope for the next generation of players delivering a premiership. Most supporters assume that Scully, Trengove, Strauss, Blease, Gysberts, Tapscott, Jurrah, Watts will be stars. But if Melbourne has not been able to develop players over the past few years, why do we assume that this will change?

Has the problem been the training facilities? The clubs with the best facilities seem to be at the top of the tree, and the gap right now between Melbourne and the rest of the comp has never been better. The club is talking up the new facilities, but is there any other club in the AFL that will have to share its training facilities with three other sporting teams for 6 months of the year, and then travel an hour to train for the other six months? Would it be a greater benefit to move full time to Casey, and develop first class facilities and local support? I don’t believe the community of Casey will embrace a part time team. I also know if my Employer asked me to split my time between two workplaces an hour apart I would be looking to change employers.

It’s easy to say that we need more out of the second –tier players, but I want to know why we are not getting the most out of them and what is going to change that.

[Bay Riffin 1,480]

I wish Brad Green would just keep his mouth shut in the press. same goes for Cam Bruce.

Why talk up Trengove and Scully in the press? Just let them get some momentum early.

when blokes like James McDonald don't make the distance from 30 metres in the clear, and Bruce is floating hospital hanpasses, I wouldn't suggest the senior blokes are doing ok, no matter how hard they try.

Just perform first, and even then don't talk it up.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Nobody in their right mind would include Dunn when talking about the core of the team. And those players are not the players I'd say get talked up in general on Demonland.

Correct. I was alluding more to Bate and Warnock for players that demonlanders rate.

Dunn is part of our core if you are talking about players that have been in the system long enough

to start showing something. He is part of our core in terms of age and experience.

Edited March 28, 2010 by stevethemanjordan

[Mono 455]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/demons-lack-a-core-worries-brad-green/story-e6frf9jf-1225846674466

Green is exaclty right; .......

Green is far too easy on the senior players. Quote: The younger and older players seem to be going all right.

Green excepted, the older players are not going alright. They are not leading, setting an example, taking the game on, etc (read Connolly's article). These are the blokes getting the bulk of the $s, and they are not earning it. (Deja vu - I was saying this back in 2008.) The middle tier players will be better if the senior players are standing up.

If they, the players, think the problem is just the middle tier, then we are in for the mother of all floggings against the filth this week.

Connolly made comparisons with Fitzroy in its death throws - we may have a few better players, but I doubt we have better leadership.

Sigh.

[Jarka 767]

Once a player is into his 4th season at a club then the expectations should increase, these are the guys that need to step up and take more responsibility. From our perspective that means from Frawley's draft backwards. Obviously some take a little longer than others, but we can't afford to be sitting on a dozen players 'hoping' that they'll eventually come good.

Injuries have killed as though. Last year we should have had more development into Watts, Blease and Strauss, the result is that we have two years of draft choices who are effectively playing in their first year. That's going to hurt us as we try and get game time into all of these kids.

A similar thing happened the previous year with Grimes & Maric, the end result is their development has been slower than we liked. I don't believe the club could have done anything to prevent these injuries as alot of them have been impact types, it just makes it bloody hard.

[45HG 1,559]

Players with 150+ games (3): Mcdonald, Bruce, Green. Mcdonald is past his best, Bruce puts in and Green is quality. 2 best 22.

Players with 100-150 games (2) : Miller and Davey. Miller probably isn't up to it and Davey is a quality player who, I think, still needs to find a damaging role in the team. 1 best 22.

Players with 50-100 games (11): Rivers, Moloney, Macdonald, Sylvia, Jamar, Jones, Bate, Bell, Johnson, Bartram and Dunn. Rivers is overrated (in my view), Moloney puts in, Macdonald has had one game with us, Sylvia has become very important as had Jamar, Jones is very similar to Moloney, Bate has had two very good seasons in the past 3, Bell, Johndon, Bartram and Dunn aren't up to it unfortunately. Possibly 7 best 22.

Players with 20-50 games (6): Frawley, Morton, Warnock, Petterd, Martin and Garland. Frawley, Morton and Garland have all become very important to the team, Warnock plays his position pretty well, I rate Petterd but just can't find a place in the team where he would be critical and Martin is a bit of a bit player. Possibly 5 best 22.

Players with 0-20 games (20): Wonaeamirri, Bennell, Jetta, Grimes, Cheney, Maric, Jurrah, Watts, Mcnamara, Trengove, Strauss, Scully, Bail, Tapscott, Gysberts, Gawn, Fitzpatrick, Blease, Mckenzie and Spencer. Possibly where our best 3 players lie in Grimes, Scully and Trengove - whilst Jurrah and Mckenzie are also best 22. 5-6 best 22.

The older brigade: Bruce, Mcdonald, Green, Davey.

The middle brigade: Rivers, Moloney, Macdonald, Sylvia, Jamar, Jones, Bate, Frawley, Morton, Warnock, Petterd, Martin and Garland. Garland, Morton and Sylvia will be big ins - but Rivers, Moloney, Jones really do have to step up. Jamar will need some time to get back into it. Warnock probably plays near to the top of his ability each week.

The young brigade: Grimes, Scully, Trengove, Jurrah, Mckenzie, Strauss, Bennell. Agree with Green here, our quality is in our youth and they put in well.

If, by older players, Green includes those with over 50 games (Mcdonald, Bruce, Green, Davey, Miller, Rivers, Moloney, Macdonald, Jamar, Jones, Bate, Dunn) I'd say only one of them had a good game on the weekend. Of the younger kids (Strauss, Scully, Trengove, Grimes, Frawley, Mckenzie, Warnock, Petterd, Bennell and Spencer) I'd say 4 had good games.

The problem I have (equal to our forward setup) is that we don't move the ball well enough. We need to attack the game, take risks and back the other players. But before we do this, we need to play a settled 22 that can learn from each other's games. Missing Garland, Sylvia, Jurrah and Morton really hurt on the weekend.

Basically, I say that there are only 10 players on our list with over 50 games experience who are best 22 and of those 10, 4 need to step up and 1 we haven't seen a lot of. That's really only 5 players on our list with over 50 games that I feel confident in leading the team.

Edited March 29, 2010 by 45HG16

[Craig Drinker 179]

I wish Brad Green would just keep his mouth shut in the press. same goes for Cam Bruce.

Why talk up Trengove and Scully in the press? Just let them get some momentum early.

when blokes like James McDonald don't make the distance from 30 metres in the clear, and Bruce is floating hospital hanpasses, I wouldn't suggest the senior blokes are doing ok, no matter how hard they try.

Just perform first, and even then don't talk it up.

Totally disagree! I believe and have for a little while that Green is starting to really stand up as a leader at the club and if the Club Captaincy was up for grabs , Green would be the player I would be looking at to lead.

[pitmaster 3,581]

Sorry Nash,

But I really would like to know peoples thoughts on Rivers game?

I had Rivers as our best defender.

Nash does tend to go off and to have even Macdonald as well as Rivers and Jamar in the same list as Miller shows how upset he is.

Jamar disappointed in the ruck but gave us some aerial strength both ends.

Those bagging Bate need to have another look. Underdone but still integral to our most positive attacking moves in the second quarter (along with Dunn). Neither got enough however.

[Nasher 33,617]

Nash does tend to go off and to have even Macdonald as well as Rivers and Jamar in the same list as Miller shows how upset he is.

You realise I was just essentially categorising them by age, right? Someone asked who they thought the "core" of the side was. I listed my "core" which is pretty much just the regular players in the 25-29 age bracket, with how they played in the recent match contributing exactly zero. There's not a lot of opinion there. I'm actually not upset at all.

And relative to the reaction of so many posters on Demonland to the recent match, I think my level of "going off" has been extremely low. I try my absolute best to post with my head, not my heart, so I'm not quite sure why there's a perception of me "going off".

[Pates 9,660]

Perhaps i'm out of line saying this but i also think that because we've been down for so long, mediocre performances have been more acceptable and tolerated by players in that middle bracket. Where the likes of Jones, Moloney, Rivers, Davey, Bate, and Sylvia are at is where they should be hitting their straps and becoming top line players. Thus far only Davey and Sylvia have really shown us that. We definitely need more out of this group, i believe that Moloney, Rivers, and Bate can certainly take the next step becoming our A-graders, Jones i like but i have this suspicion that he will never be anything more than a handy work-horse player (probably to take over from Junior).

One of the most concerning things i found watching what i saw (and i didn't see the whole game) was that we got smashed in the midfield and we didn't get enough ball inside 50. Now we know our forward line is pathetic, suddenly giving a 1 year contract to Robbo doesn't seem so silly, but it doesn't matter how good your forwards are, if you're not winning the ball in the midfield then there is no chance of us having enough inside 50s.

I missed out on seeing the game this week (live), so despite the terrible performance and the fact that Collingwood beat the crap out of the Bulldogs, i'm still looking forward to see the Dees this weekend!

[The Big Ticket 94]

Reminds of something Richo talked about on 3AW on Saturday. They were talking about clubs rebuilding and touched on Richmonds. He said something along of the lines of the senior and middle tier players Richmond had at the time weren't good enough to guide their young players through the rebuild.

I can't remember exactly what else he said. But it got me thinking. So much rides on the shoulders of Moloney, Sylvia, etc.

[Keyser Söze 0]

For a start, it's not just a problem for this one match. It is an ongoing problem.

Injuries have made a difference, but only slightly.

This is something we have been working to rectify for a few seasons and it may take a few more. Not many people recognize and fully appreciate the hole we were in, in terms of "list-composition".

It's not a case of our middle and senior players not being up to AFL standard.

It's a case of not having enough and in that group as a collective there is just not enough quality to carry a side full of kids.

Bruce is capable, but considering his standing in the team, for us to be successful he simply needs to be a better player.

And he isn't. Never will be.

Jones, Bate and Dunn are perfectly capable players if they have superstars around them. They don't. (Yet.)

Johnson, Newton, Bartram, Meesen, Bell are, in my opinion, not up to it.

With all the list cloggers we've unloaded over the last few years, we still have a fair few still.

It's going back to the notion I've seen raised on this board many times before, the one that we don't have enough "star power".

We have a team full of kids and role players and until we develop some Abletts and Judds and then some A-graders, we won't be able to compete with the top 8 teams.

[titan_uranus 25,045]

These are the players I'd put in the "middle aged core" of the side that played:

1. Matthew Warnock

7. Brad Miller

22. Brent Moloney

27. Jared Rivers

28. Joel Macdonald

36. Aaron Davey

40. Mark Jamar

Anyone disagree that these are the players that we need more from?

Yep, that's a good list there.

Warnock played the worst game he's played for 2 years. Last year he was reliable at FB. I'm going to hope it was an aberration, and that the Warnock of 2009 returns, but if that's what we're going to get from him this year then that's trouble.

Miller has been done to death.

Moloney and Davey were, and still are, two of our best players. Obviously not suprisingly, both played really poorly on Saturday. I couldn't work out where Davey was playing. He often started in the forward 50 but seemed to drift all over the ground. I'm not sure where he's best suited yet. Moloney I have confidence in, and I expect a much better showing this weekend.

Rivers is a weird one. Some groups over-rate him, others under-rate him. Personally I probably fall into the over-rate category, but I thought he was definitely one of our better players and is getting lambasted unfairly. Rivers has what a lot of other players in our team don't have, and that's the ability to read the play and act accordingly. His footskills aren't great, and that lets him down, but IMO he gives plenty to our defence.

Jamar was a big disappointment for mine. He should have dominated Renouf. He also didn't look comfortable when he went forward, which is odd given that he had such a good game in the forward line last year, kicking 5 vs Carlton.

As for MacDonald, that was the first time I'd ever seen him play live (or at least paid any attention to him), and I was less than impressed. However, I have no idea if that is the norm for him or if he has more to offer than that. But he was slow and his skills weren't great.