Teach forward stuff to candidates

[Summer Blease 0]

Love the site.. reader of it for a long time.

How do you teach someone how to kick? Obviously there are many more elements to it at the elite level- but why do we still have forwards who can’t kick accurately? Why does any club have forwards who can’t kick accurately for that matter?

Clubs have full time coaches who get paid good money to teach this stuff. And it is the footballers duty to learn it. In my job, if I can’t learn something I’m expected to, or can’t perform something I’m required to under pressure, I would be under serious review.

If it is the footballers job to kick goals, and that is what the club wants and expects of them, then why isn’t every resource directed into solely getting that player an efficient, reliable kicking action etc. Pardon my ignorance but doesn’t practice make perfect? Are the stakes not high enough? We need forwards, we have candidates (miller/martin/newton)... can they be turned into actual options through intense round the clock kicking sessions? Who cares how mundane it becomes for them.. they get paid well to serve us least they can do is work on a deficiency in their game as we would be required to in our jobs. Discuss

[Summer Blease 0]

Also, in my opinion, we have a guy capable of playing full forward already. Mr Brad Green. It perplexes me as to why he isn’t being played full forward. He’s done it before, and in my opinion, is by far the best option we have. I believe he will be of great use to us there, in so many ways. Bravery aside. Discuss.

[Carn dees 108]

Also, in my opinion, we have a guy capable of playing full forward already. Mr Brad Green. It perplexes me as to why he isn’t being played full forward. He’s done it before, and in my opinion, is by far the best option we have. I believe he will be of great use to us there, in so many ways. Bravery aside. Discuss.

I agree, something definitely has to be done.

I think Brad Green has to be our man, we cant go into the home and away season with out a forward line.

Watching the dees down at casey seeing Ricky Petterd and Adam Maric deep in our forward line was a massive worry for going ahead.

Eventually id like to see Garland or Green along side Watts deep in our forward line, if we go into the year with out a solid full forward it maybe another long year.

[jayceebee31 761]

Love the site.. reader of it for a long time.

How do you teach someone how to kick? Obviously there are many more elements to it at the elite level- but why do we still have forwards who can’t kick accurately? Why does any club have forwards who can’t kick accurately for that matter?

Clubs have full time coaches who get paid good money to teach this stuff. And it is the footballers duty to learn it. In my job, if I can’t learn something I’m expected to, or can’t perform something I’m required to under pressure, I would be under serious review.

If it is the footballers job to kick goals, and that is what the club wants and expects of them, then why isn’t every resource directed into solely getting that player an efficient, reliable kicking action etc. Pardon my ignorance but doesn’t practice make perfect? Are the stakes not high enough? We need forwards, we have candidates (miller/martin/newton)... can they be turned into actual options through intense round the clock kicking sessions? Who cares how mundane it becomes for them.. they get paid well to serve us least they can do is work on a deficiency in their game as we would be required to in our jobs. Discuss

Concur- I have bee arguing your sentiments for a long time now! and OR--it maybe the coaches are not capable to develop/teach?

[H_T 3,047]

All my current thoughts on goal kicking and others from September 2009 onwards can be found in this thread of mine from late last season: -Goal Kicking Identification & Analysis

It gives a breakdown of last years goals & averages and discusses them, but it doesn't highlight inaccurate kicking for goal.

[Keyser Söze 0]

Love the site.. reader of it for a long time.

How do you teach someone how to kick? Obviously there are many more elements to it at the elite level- but why do we still have forwards who can’t kick accurately? Why does any club have forwards who can’t kick accurately for that matter?

Clubs have full time coaches who get paid good money to teach this stuff. And it is the footballers duty to learn it. In my job, if I can’t learn something I’m expected to, or can’t perform something I’m required to under pressure, I would be under serious review.

If it is the footballers job to kick goals, and that is what the club wants and expects of them, then why isn’t every resource directed into solely getting that player an efficient, reliable kicking action etc. Pardon my ignorance but doesn’t practice make perfect? Are the stakes not high enough? We need forwards, we have candidates (miller/martin/newton)... can they be turned into actual options through intense round the clock kicking sessions? Who cares how mundane it becomes for them.. they get paid well to serve us least they can do is work on a deficiency in their game as we would be required to in our jobs. Discuss

Surely you are given a reasonable timeframe in which to prove you can perform such duties.

I'd say that the timeframe you personally are giving to see these results is far too short.

Also, surely some of the responsibility for learning falls upon the student, not merely the teacher.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Love the site.. reader of it for a long time.

How do you teach someone how to kick? Obviously there are many more elements to it at the elite level- but why do we still have forwards who can’t kick accurately? Why does any club have forwards who can’t kick accurately for that matter?

Clubs have full time coaches who get paid good money to teach this stuff. And it is the footballers duty to learn it. In my job, if I can’t learn something I’m expected to, or can’t perform something I’m required to under pressure, I would be under serious review.

If it is the footballers job to kick goals, and that is what the club wants and expects of them, then why isn’t every resource directed into solely getting that player an efficient, reliable kicking action etc. Pardon my ignorance but doesn’t practice make perfect? Are the stakes not high enough? We need forwards, we have candidates (miller/martin/newton)... can they be turned into actual options through intense round the clock kicking sessions? Who cares how mundane it becomes for them.. they get paid well to serve us least they can do is work on a deficiency in their game as we would be required to in our jobs. Discuss

Also, in my opinion, we have a guy capable of playing full forward already. Mr Brad Green. It perplexes me as to why he isn’t being played full forward. He’s done it before, and in my opinion, is by far the best option we have. I believe he will be of great use to us there, in so many ways. Bravery aside. Discuss.

Can't disagree with you on either of the points you have made nostradeemus.

One would hope that there would be a full and effective goal kicking program down at training for our forwards but I agree that we are

not seeing the improvement. Although, in Millers defence, I believe his goal kicking has improved a lot over the years. Another complexity

to take into consideration is that these guys are highly under pressure and are expected to kick goals in front of thousands of die hard Melbourne

supporters. I'm sure that plays on their minds a little. Especially for people like Miller who hasn't got a natural instinct and technique for kicking goals.

I believe it's a waste of time throwing Martin in the forward line. He has been a project player of the last couple of years and every time he becomes settled in

one position it seems we take him out and throw him to the deep end again...(forward and ruck these days).

In my opinion, we are not solving anything by playing Martin forward except maybe to take a big defender out of the game which may or may not have more upside..

Depends on the game and who is playing etc....

Newton is of no value. I think we have kept him because we still have Watts and Jurrah who are developing and this is really his last chance. Just doesn't seem like

he has the desire to play at AFL level.

I agree that Brad green would be great for full forward. If we left him one out in the square and Miller could push up the ground like he used to with Neitz I feel we

could have a far more effective forward line then what we have been experimenting with lately... But this is just my view.

The only problem you would have with this is that our midfield would have to have their kicking boots on. Would like to see this strategy

implemented at some stage this season.

Go Dees.

Edited March 17, 2010 by stevethemanjordan

[Keyser Söze 0]

Also, in my opinion, we have a guy capable of playing full forward already. Mr Brad Green. It perplexes me as to why he isn’t being played full forward. He’s done it before, and in my opinion, is by far the best option we have. I believe he will be of great use to us there, in so many ways. Bravery aside. Discuss.

Brad Green is our current best option to play FF, but it is akin to the Doggies playing Brad Johnson at FF.

I am sure we will see this in coming years as Green gets older, but for now, due to a lack of sufficient support, he is more valuable around the ground.

If he was bigger I'd agree, but a guy his size would drown at FF with the support we can give him.

[Inner Demon 1]

I'm really, really sick of this ludicrous argument of "in my job if I couldn't perform my nominated task I'd be fired/under review" being applied to elite level, professional sport.

Sport is all about executing inherently difficult skills that are impossible to master at 100% efficiency. If it was nothing more than a matter of training up and then just performing the skill then it wouldn't be a sport. This is why your desk job is not watched by thousands of people.

Apply this ridiculous thought process to other sports:

Every golfer should hit every fairway & green and sink every putt. After all, they're paid enormous money and have professional full-time coaches teaching them to do it.

Tennis players should never make double faults or make unforced errors.

Aerial skiers shouldn't fall on landing.

I could go on all day.

[jayceebee31 761]

Brad Green is our current best option to play FF, but it is akin to the Doggies playing Brad Johnson at FF.

I am sure we will see this in coming years as Green gets older, but for now, due to a lack of sufficient support, he is more valuable around the ground.

If he was bigger I'd agree, but a guy his size would drown at FF with the support we can give him.

So therefore who would you put there...Spencer?????.I would go for the resting ruckman with Green in the pocket.

Edited March 17, 2010 by jayceebee31

[Keyser Söze 0]

So therefore who would you put there...Spencer?????.I would go for the resting ruckman with Green in the pocket.

I'm happy to persevere with Martin.

Spencer at times. Even a small forward line at times, but I don't see the point of having Green as a permanent FF because it would be too easily foiled.

[furious d 464]

So therefore who would you put there...Spencer?????.I would go for the resting ruckman with Green in the pocket.

I hope they persist with Martin. This Martin isn't a forward talk is a nonsense imo. Truth be told he's not a footballer, didn't take it up until a few years ago. Jimma wasn't a ruckman when he turned up either, he was a gaelic footballer. Hence the term "project" being applied to these guys.

Martin is around 200cm's, he's very quick, he's agile, does ok below his knees and he's one of our better contested marks. As far as I'm aware he's played maybe a few hours of football in the forward line, and people are making judgements already. Hardly fair to a project player.

If the coaches can turn Martin into a servicable KPF and Watts comes on as we hope, we could have a very good forward line in a few years.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

I hope they persist with Martin. This Martin isn't a forward talk is a nonsense imo. Truth be told he's not a footballer, didn't take it up until a few years ago. Jimma wasn't a ruckman when he turned up either, he was a gaelic footballer. Hence the term "project" being applied to these guys.

Martin is around 200cm's, he's very quick, he's agile, does ok below his knees and he's one of our better contested marks. As far as I'm aware he's played maybe a few hours of football in the forward line, and people are making judgements already. Hardly fair to a project player.

If the coaches can turn Martin into a servicable KPF and Watts comes on as we hope, we could have a very good forward line in a few years.

That's a funny joke right?

Melbourne supporters optimism...

Almost laughable.

[Keyser Söze 0]

That's a funny joke right?

Melbourne supporters optimism...

Almost laughable.

He's done alright in this area (contested marking) when played in the backline... any reason why you think he couldn't translate that to the forward line??

Some Melbourne supporters' pessimism...

Entirely laughable.

[Summer Blease 0]

I'm really, really sick of this ludicrous argument of "in my job if I couldn't perform my nominated task I'd be fired/under review" being applied to elite level, professional sport.

Sport is all about executing inherently difficult skills that are impossible to master at 100% efficiency. If it was nothing more than a matter of training up and then just performing the skill then it wouldn't be a sport. This is why your desk job is not watched by thousands of people.

Apply this ridiculous thought process to other sports:

Every golfer should hit every fairway & green and sink every putt. After all, they're paid enormous money and have professional full-time coaches teaching them to do it.

Tennis players should never make double faults or make unforced errors.

Aerial skiers shouldn't fall on landing.

I could go on all day.

Looking at it that way, you definately have a point. Life isn't black and white, and I understand 100% efficency isn't realistic as we are not robots.. and I agree, Miller has gotten a little better lately.. but can anyone truely say they have confidence in his set shots? Hell even he doesnt.. confidence is another thing.. Is his confidence interfering with his technique? Do we need a psychologist teaching our forward line players?

On Martin- I see him as someone worth persisting with also Keyser. He is tall, strong, young, quick, and he brings a presence about him... if only he could kick straight!! Kind of the definition of frustrating is it not?

My thoughts on Brad Green being forward and what it will give and may take from our structures..... It will give someone who we at least know has played there efectively in the past another go.... and, more importantly, who else is going to do it? I'm wracking my brain and I just can't think of anyone else who can do it. Our injury crisis aside, who is ready to give it a crack? One man. Green.

Or maybe petterd. Not just because of his recent good form, I have always admired his courage. Loosing an apendige aside also- hes courage running back, forward, sideways with the ball is commendable. If the kid develops body size wise we could have an unexpected main man right there. Either way, my point is, I struggle to pinpoint our main man right now. God I wish Neita was still around!! Met him at my mates bar once, which was cool because it is kind of an underground, not too mainstream kind of place. He boogied. We took photos. Twas Fun.

[furious d 464]

That's a funny joke right?

Melbourne supporters optimism...

Almost laughable.

He was equal third for contested marks on our list last year and Robbo was one of the players ahead of him. Jurrah had less but more per game.

I never said he was a great contested mark, just one of our best. Unfortunately that's not too difficult atm.

[Summer Blease 0]

I hope they persist with Martin. This Martin isn't a forward talk is a nonsense imo. Truth be told he's not a footballer, didn't take it up until a few years ago. Jimma wasn't a ruckman when he turned up either, he was a gaelic footballer. Hence the term "project" being applied to these guys.

Martin is around 200cm's, he's very quick, he's agile, does ok below his knees and he's one of our better contested marks. As far as I'm aware he's played maybe a few hours of football in the forward line, and people are making judgements already. Hardly fair to a project player.

If the coaches can turn Martin into a servicable KPF and Watts comes on as we hope, we could have a very good forward line in a few years.

Point proven. Martin is quick, agile, does well below knees is a good mark. He maybe considered a "project" player and he hasn't played all that much time in the forward half. All the more reason to persist. It seems, even by your own analasys that the only thing big ol Martin is missing is an accurate and dependable shot for goal.

Why do the coaches have to turn Martin into a servicable KPF? Why pin all your "hopes" on Watts coming through.. where is your plan B there?

Diplomacy is dead! Just really wanted to say that!

[furious d 464]

Point proven. Martin is quick, agile, does well below knees is a good mark. He maybe considered a "project" player and he hasn't played all that much time in the forward half. All the more reason to persist. It seems, even by your own analasys that the only thing big ol Martin is missing is an accurate and dependable shot for goal.

Why do the coaches have to turn Martin into a servicable KPF? Why pin all your "hopes" on Watts coming through.. where is your plan B there?

Diplomacy is dead! Just really wanted to say that!

Agree his kicking is poor, even by our standards. For the record I don't think that's the only thing he lacks. His reading of the play and positioning in the contest isn't great, but these are area's that can be improved, as is his kicking. You can't teach Brad Green to be a few inches taller, you can't teach Spencer to be agile but Martins flaws are fixable imo.

I said in another thread he should be handcuffed to Neita for several hours a day doing video reviews and getting instruction on how to play FF and spend the rest of the day practicing set shots.

[H_T 3,047]

Was watching the '88 Prlim Final the other night. We had Sean Wight and big Jimmy on occassions down forward providing targets with Lyon and Spalding floating in and out.

Sometimes you've got to make do with what you've got. At the moment, we have what appears limited options. Jurrah is out injured (LTI), Watts is still young and under developed and coming back from an interrupted pre-season, these two looking forward are the ones giving us most hope up forward in terms of KPF prospects. They are both very good kicks too.

As previously mentioned, Brad Green, Matthew Bate, Brad Miller & Ricky Petterd are definite options with Green in no doubt the best kick of the lot - one would assume. Apart from Miller there's no apparent significant size about them, like other opposition KP forwards.

Other options that have already been trialled in the Challenge matches are S.Martin and at times M.Jamar. Martin could well be the one to fill the void for the interim and change with Jamar in the ruck. If one of them gets injured, we could not only find ourselves even shorter up forward, but left crippled in the ruck.

Then there is Dunn, Fitzpatrick ( a major work in progress ), Gawn (LTI) and Newton (rookie) as our other options.

Colin Garland has played forward before and can kick, perhaps another option to be explored once on the park. One or two have mentioned Rivers and even Frawley as optional targets at CHF. Not sure on either, but it's definitely not too late to try given we're striving to climb out of 16th.

I'm not sure any of the above mentioned will become something we all desire for the club up forward. ie. Another Neita or Reiwoldt equivalent at FF.

Fingers crossed we get KOTD eventually.

[Summer Blease 0]

I said in another thread he should be handcuffed to Neita for several hours a day doing video reviews and getting instruction on how to play FF and spend the rest of the day practicing set shots.

Hahahah... as ridiculous as that sounds.... why the hell not. Well obviously not that exact scenario.. but intense coaching, training, tips, kicking sessions and the likes.... I don't see why not! Even if he only focuses on forward line duties ONLY at the expence of every other facet of his game (basicaly trying to say lets make this kid eat breath and live set shots/forward line set ups/plays karate kid style)... talk of him not fitting in anywhere to our structure and therefore not being able to hold a spot on our list by some posters around here(not you) is utterly FOOLISH. Just teach the kid to kick! Ahh I want to shout in his face!! Kick straight!! Learn it!!

I think confidence has alot to do with it also! Do we have sports psychologists down at the MFC? Can anyone in particular be blamed for our lack of viable options up forward (once again, injuries, as they always must be, aside) Is Millers' and Newtons' problem in their head? Because at the end of the day, i'm pretty sure they do get taught these things at training and may be able to do them at training, but what happens out on the paddock? I just feel someone isn't doing their job re our forward hopefuls.

[Summer Blease 0]

Was watching the '88 Prlim Final the other night. We had Sean Wight and big Jimmy on occassions down forward providing targets with Lyon and Spalding floating in and out.

Sometimes you've got to make do with what you've got. At the moment, we have what appears limited options. Jurrah is out injured (LTI), Watts is still young and under developed and coming back from an interrupted pre-season, these two looking forward are the ones giving us most hope up forward in terms of KPF prospects. They are both very good kicks too.

As previously mentioned, Brad Green, Matthew Bate, Brad Miller & Ricky Petterd are definite options with Green in no doubt the best kick of the lot - one would assume. Apart from Miller there's no apparent significant size about them, like other opposition KP forwards.

Other options that have already been trialled in the Challenge matches are S.Martin and at times M.Jamar. Martin could well be the one to fill the void for the interim and change with Jamar in the ruck. If one of them gets injured, we could not only find ourselves even shorter up forward, but left crippled in the ruck.

Then there is Dunn, Fitzpatrick ( a major work in progress ), Gawn (LTI) and Newton (rookie) as our other options.

Colin Garland has played forward before and can kick, perhaps another option to be explored once on the park. One or two have mentioned Rivers and even Frawley as optional targets at CHF. Not sure on either, but it's definitely not too late to try given we're striving to climb out of 16th.

I'm not sure any of the above mentioned will become something we all desire for the club up forward. ie. Another Neita or Reiwoldt equivalent at FF.

Fingers crossed we get KOTD eventually.

We could try anyone there. Well within reason. I don't think the host of ready steady cook would do well FF @ MFC.. but just like Peter Everit should stick to his cheesy mid afternoon groping/cooking show, I think Frawley should stick to his shutting down best defenders with swagger show.

Experimenting with some players may leave holes and water leaking into the boat. Why not try with the nomads. The ones with no homes. If Martin succedes in the forward line what a bonus that would be! Im not worried about the future (well i can't be.. how much worrying can one do) with the tall timber we are yet to experiment with waiting under the tree.. i think our backup ruckman issues can sort themselves out... I want a strapping young quick man at FF. Make it happen MFC. Make it happen!

[Lost Highway 31]

Love the site.. reader of it for a long time.

How do you teach someone how to kick? Obviously there are many more elements to it at the elite level- but why do we still have forwards who can’t kick accurately? Why does any club have forwards who can’t kick accurately for that matter?

Nostra, I'm pretty new around here too! Like you, I've been a lurker for quite a while.

Clearly, if you look at blokes like Miller and Newton, it's simply too late to teach them how to kick; Miller has been getting under his kicks since he arrived at the club. I can't believe no one has ever tried to correct that in his technique. He has a maximum range of about 40 metres, and with any accuracy it's no more than 25m. He can't deliver the ball to a player over any distance because the ball hangs in the air too long. He'll have to be used in the forward line for height, strength and determination.

Several people have responded to your comment about kicking by suggesting Green for FF. I've suggested the same thing in two or three other threads. He can mark overhead, read the play, is courageous, and is the best kick in the side, one of the best in the AFL. He only has to get the ball 6 or 7 times within range - which for him is 50m - and he'll kick 3 or 4 goals. The coach could throw a spanner in the Hawthorn works by putting him at FF in match 1, using Davey, Petterd and Maric, maybe Jetta, as smalls around Miller or Dunn, with resting ruck in the pocket. With Sylvia, Wona and Jurrah out they're the obvious candidates. Green is the only player in the side with any credibility as the FF, smallish as he may seem.

On the other hand, those who think Martin could make a forward are having a lend of themselves. He's not a natural footballer and will never be able to win enough of his own ball in attack, where turning and gathering are as integral to the role as straight kicking. He's played well in defence, where the ball comes at the player differently and rebounding is more important; he's shown he can do that and has a bit of pace. The club will be wasting everyone's time if it experiments with him forward or in the ruck.

Edited March 17, 2010 by Lost Highway

[Summer Blease 0]

Nostra, I'm pretty new around here too! Like you, I've been a lurker for quite a while.

Clearly, if you look at blokes like Miller and Newton, it's simply too late to teach them how to kick; Miller has been getting under his kicks since he arrived at the club. I can't believe no one has ever tried to correct that in his technique. He has a maximum range of about 40 metres, and with any accuracy it's no more than 25m. He can't deliver the ball to a player over any distance because the ball hangs in the air too long. He'll have to be used in the forward line for height, strength and determination.

Several people have responded to your comment about kicking by suggesting Green for FF. I've suggested the same thing in two or three other threads. He can mark overhead, read the play, is courageous, and is the best kick in the side, one of the best in the AFL. He only has to get the ball 6 or 7 times within range - which for him is 50m - and he'll kick 3 or 4 goals. The coach could throw a spanner in the Hawthorn works by putting him at FF in match 1, using Davey, Petterd and Maric, maybe Jetta, as smalls around Miller or Dunn, with resting ruck in the pocket. With Sylvia, Wona and Jurrah out they're the obvious candidates. Green is the only player in the side with any credibility as the FF, smallish as he may seem.

On the other hand, those who think Martin could make a forward are having a lend of themselves. He's not a natural footballer and will never be able to win enough of his own ball in attack, where turning and gathering are as integral to the role as straight kicking. He's played well in defence, where the ball comes at the player differently and rebounding is more important; he's shown he can do that and has a bit of pace. The club will be wasting everyone's time if it experiments with him forward or in the ruck.

I also suggested in this very thread- green shoud be FF. Size is handy, but if you have some forward nounce about you it can also hold you in good stead (anyone remember mark williams killing it a few years ago) I, or I don't think anyone is expecting a coleman medalist in Green.. but can anyone not see him being able to get 2-3 (40-60 a year) goals a game? That is definately in the realms of reality!

Greens courage is a factor being overlooked also. I think a man in a focal position ie FF displaying countless acts of courage and bravery (which no AFL follower anywere could deny) could set an extrememly important example for all the young midfielders and fellow forwards around him- Go when it's your turn, no regrets, no hesitation. No retreat. No surrender. In terms of 'out there' thinking, this isn't exactly earth shattering. Surprised it hasn't been done yet to be honest.. it seems on the surface, the most logical thing to do.

[BAMF 4,353]

Green is still a much needed midfielder for mine. Should, and would no doubt rotate through the forward line this year. But I want to win some games this year, and he will be needed in the midfield if that is to happen. Next year when we have got Scully, Trengove, Grimes and the rest of the young guys some have some much needed experience in them is when we have the luxury of playing Green as a forward.

Martin should be learning the forward role at Casey. It's unfair of posters to write him off when he is being forced to learn with experienced defenders on him as well as delivery as shocking and infrequent as it currently is. Unfortunately Martin playing for Casey is another luxury we can not afford at the moment with the KPF and Ruck stocks in short supply.

Edited March 17, 2010 by Forge

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

In my job, if I can’t learn something I’m expected to, or can’t perform something I’m required to under pressure, I would be under serious review.

sure, if you were being asked to learn how to use Excel, but what if your boss asked you to paint a beautiful watercolour landscape worthy of exhibition? No matter how hard you practised you probably still wouldn't do a very good job because you just weren't born with the natural ability for that particular thing... maybe goalkicking is similar