The reason we invested in our midfield!

[sylvinator 96]

OK, the most obvious and legitimate reason is that when BP made his list of potential draftees, from 1- ?, he had only 1 KPP in the top 20 (Butcher, gone at pick 8.) BP had also been quoted that youngsters that have been rated by 'Bigfooty groupthink' as top20- Tahlia, Black, Panos- are NOT key position players. They are more versatile 192cm flankers. Thus, even if we did pick these players on a 'needs basis', they would NOT have fulfilled our need for KPP.

But here is my reason why we invested in midfield and not KPP. Look forward to 2012/13...

KP DEFENDERS=

- Warnock: 2 top 5 b&f results confirm him as our rock in defence. Will continue to play for another 5 years

- Frawley: probably the best young KP defender in the league for the next 10 years

- Garland: if he can get his body right, will join Frawley as a top quality backman for 10 years

- Rivers: Body might only last another 3-4 years but remains an important key backman

- McNamara: Still only 19 y/o could be a player. Worth persevering with

Conclusion............... that's 4 very strong options. McNamara could make 5 options. Considering you only really need 2-3 options, we are strong in this area. I think most would agree with me on that!

KP forwards=

- Watts: to quote Josh Mahoney "Watts will be so good he'll be like 2 KP forwards". Our coaching staff are looking into the future and see him being a superstar of the AFL

- Jurrah: Is an absolute freak. May not be true KP forward, but is 190cm and plays very tall in terms of marking ability.

- Bate: I agree with Gary Lyon when he says he would be a top50 afl player if he played for Geelong. I am huge fan of Bate, think he will be a great player and become more recognised when our midfield make life easier for our forwards

- Morton: himself quoted as having aspiration for CHF. If he continues to bulk up as expected, WOW! Aim should be 95kg.

- Martin: Mahoney says he's being developed as a mobile 198cm strong marking key forward. Also take the rucking in the forward line

- Fitzpatrick: drafted and being developed as a strong marking mobile KP forard

Conclusion.......... Unlike our defence, almost every option up forward is based on potential. This is what gets people worried. But if you look at those players, Watts was pick1, Morton pick 4, Bate pick 12, Jurrah a freak of nature... We have some seriously quality talented kidz to rely on. So while it is based on potential, past data tells us top picks are much more likely to succeed. We only really need 3 of these guyz to 'make it' and we'll be absolutely gunning it.

Ultimately, the midfield is where premierships are won. With a super midfield, our defence and forward line will look much stronger. Investing in our midfield was correctly our number 1 priority, and investing in midfielders that are all different and will complement each other. We have 5 options for KP backs and 6 for KP forwards. Sure, not all of them will make it... but a few of them look like being great players already, we have a lot of high draft picks and I trust at least 2-3 KP backs and 2-3 KP forwards will become guns.

Most importantly, now our midfield for the future looks super strong... with 8 gun midfielders we'd be pushing for a premiership. I can count at least 8 from this list.

Scully, Trengove, Davey, Sylvia, Grimes, Moloney, Jones, Blease, Gysberts, McKenzie (Tapscott, Maric, Strauss, Jetta to be flankers with stings in the midfield).

When you analyse our list, i think our KP stocks aren't really that thin, and I think the coaching staff was wise to invest in the midfield.

Does anyone agree?

[deanox 9,989]

- Frawley: probably the best young KP defender in the league for the next 10 years

i dont disagree, but i will be surprised if frawley can hold the mantle of 'best young KP defender in the league for the next 10 years'. Don't get me wrong, I rate him highly, but he will age like everyone else.

[Keyser Söze 0]

Yep, I'm pretty happy with that appraisal.

[MrReims 322]

Absolutely, me too.

Although I have been meaning to post re: Miller for quite a while and was waiting for a time i felt was right.

He is continually left out of best 22's, seen as leaving at the end of next year and in this OP (which i otherwise completely agree with) he has been left out all together.

Where does this mass hatred/dislike/disdain for such a great clubman come from? Being overseas I have wonderful access to the last two seasons, every from every round. Like many of us, I'm going through my off season withdrawals so have been randomly watching those 44 melbourne matches to the point where I think i've seen all of them at least twice. A little sad? Definitely, however keep in mind it is dark at 4.45pm and only 3-13 degrees at the moment here in Germany. However, i'll tell you one thing, when Miller is firing, Melbourne is firing. Sometimes that is only for a quarter, sometimes weeks not at all. But when he is dominating, AND HE DOES DOMINATE NO MATTER WHICH DEFENDER IS ON HIM ONCE HE'S GOING we look the goods. A C grade midfield looks amazing when he is leading up the ground.

Now, lets get a little serious for a moment though. Is he shaky in front of goal? Yes, but he is not alone there. Mooney, Kosi even Hall can look pretty ordinary at times. But at the old fashioned CHF he wouldn't need to be lining up for goals that often. A give and got to Davey, Sylvia, Moloney and hopefully Tapscott is more than acceptable.

Plus, the man is a confidence player. I think we can all agree on that. When our other KPF are kicking more goals and the pressure to score personally comes off him a bit I'm going to put my house on his consistency improving. He can then become the 'nail in the coffin' kind of player we need.

Can we please, as passionate supporters, keep an open mind on him this year. Not every player has the ability to turn or win a match of their own work. He is actually one of them.

If by years end it is the same old story, fine, i agree it is too little too late. C'mon Miller and C'ARN THE DEES!!!!

[timD 994]

My faith in Miller as anything more than a meat and potatoes tall is gone. However, the service to him has been awful for years. THe number of times passes go nowhere naer him must be dispiriting.

[Craig Drinker 179]

Got to agree! Miller as a rule always gives 100% ,competes well ,leads strongly ,wants the football and does all the team things.

Obviously his kicking for goal lets him down and I think it is a confidence thing.He needs to be given a set routine when kicking for goal which will calm him down a bit. At present he flips the ball around too much when he comes in to kick for goal and that is a nervous habit in my opinion.

The constant Miller bashing on these boards is just a mob mentality really. At the end of the day it's what the coaching staff think of Miller that is important.

[Bonkers 994]

Got to agree! Miller as a rule always gives 100% ,competes well ,leads strongly ,wants the football and does all the team things.

Obviously his kicking for goal lets him down and I think it is a confidence thing.He needs to be given a set routine when kicking for goal which will calm him down a bit. At present he flips the ball around too much when he comes in to kick for goal and that is a nervous habit in my opinion.

The constant Miller bashing on these boards is just a mob mentality really. At the end of the day it's what the coaching staff think of Miller that is important.

Hence the one year contract offer he has just received.

[Craig Drinker 179]

Hence the one year contract offer he has just received.

I think if he can start coverting a few more chances in front of goal he will be sticking around for a while longer.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,234]

Excellent post Sylvinator. I think the concern is that our forwardline Bate aside is all based on potential. The concern is whether that potential will be realised. I think adding another potential KPF increases the likelihood that this will meet expectations. In saying this if our recruiting staff did not rate one at the relevant picks they made the correct decisions.

[H_T 3,049]

Can't help but feel your enthusiasm via your post. Agree. The midfield is oh so important for the club's goal's.

As others have already mentioned, you probably could have included Miller within the KP forwards, for the time being (short to medium term). Looking forward though, I can understand why you might not have included him.

[jayceebee31 761]

The true reason we invested so heavily in this years draft on midfielders is--Scott West. He is now full time- not part time as last year. Able to oput everything into it. Great teacher. Think of the year Ratten was at the Dees,he really brouht them on & quickly. Therefore a great chance Westy will do the same

[Bonkers 994]

I think if he can start coverting a few more chances in front of goal he will be sticking around for a while longer.

I don't want to turn this into a Miller thread, but if you have a look at him when he plays he has got no idea what to do with the footy when he's got the ball. He is a back to goal lead up forward and that is about all he will ever be. His ability as an AFL forward is pretty much limited as he doesn't have much of an idea when he is facing his own goal or when he is trying to bring his team mates into the game. He's almost as one dimensional as Ben Holland.

[torpedo 33]

I agree with the gist of your post but I think you've sugar coated the depth our KPP stocks to try and prove your point.

Bate is not a key position player. When this was tried earlier in the year it did not work, that is the coaches assessment, not mine. I find it strange that when Bate's best football is played as a 3rd tall / flanker everyone wants to move him, generally people are reluctant to move players around if they are successful in their current role, whats different with Bate?

I think you're also clutching at straws with the likes of McNamara and Jurrah.

I agree that Morton & Martin may develop into KPP yet though.

Strange that you've left out Miller, who has done 10x more as a key forward target than Bate has.

[MrReims 322]

I don't want to turn this into a Miller thread, but if you have a look at him when he plays he has got no idea what to do with the footy when he's got the ball. He is a back to goal lead up forward and that is about all he will ever be. His ability as an AFL forward is pretty much limited as he doesn't have much of an idea when he is facing his own goal or when he is trying to bring his team mates into the game. He's almost as one dimensional as Ben Holland.

Oh come on! I don't want to change the topic of the thread either, but comparisons to Holland? I mean damn!

Even Rnd 22 2009 was not a totally poor performance despite the obvious role changes after half time. His work off the ball is also second to none at the club which we desperately need with so many small and/or lightly built forwards!

Great teams aren't teams that have stars in them, great teams are teams that have stars with the right kind of support.

[Redleg 41,469]

I also think Miller cops unfair criticism. He was a late draft pick and was taken as a half back flanker. We have tried to make him our CHF only because we had no one else.

He is a solid contributor doing the 1% things and while no star he would be better with better delivery of the ball. Maybe more class in the midfield will help his game. He does work hard and lead up all of the time and is as we all know very happy to give it off, to his detriment sometimes. His kicking has improved and he has added a few metres to his kicks.

He will never be a star but as others have said not every player in the team is. He has a big body and is prepared to use it.

Until someone better comes along he will maintain his position and give his best.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Redleg

[Bonkers 994]

Oh come on! I don't want to change the topic of the thread either, but comparisons to Holland? I mean damn!

Even Rnd 22 2009 was not a totally poor performance despite the obvious role changes after half time. His work off the ball is also second to none at the club which we desperately need with so many small and/or lightly built forwards!

Great teams aren't teams that have stars in them, great teams are teams that have stars with the right kind of support.

Great teams are teams that are full of footballing ability as well as having members in them that are willing to sacrifice a part of their game & sometimes their body for the greater good of the team. Selfless acts etc.

If Miller was so essential to the teams well being they would have offered him a more secure contract than a one year extension. I think we all know he has a spot on the list until a better option arises, that's the nature of professional sport.

[Fat Tony 5,272]

I don’t think we can read into the decision to go for midfielders with the first four picks as strong evidence that the coaches have great confidence in our key forward stocks. I think the decision was solely made because our recruiting staff considered the best available player at each pick to be a midfielder.

While our backline looks set for key position players, our forward stocks still remain very uncertain. The future really depends on how Watts and Jurrah develop. If they become Nick Reiwoldt and Daniel Motlop we will be laughing. However, if they turn out like Scott Stevens and Charlie Gardner we will be crying.

Also I am not convinced that Martin is a forward and I think the experiment is hindering his development. He is not a natural footballer and would be better suited to either the ruck or the backline. In fact I would like to see him play around 40 minutes per game in the backline rotation and around 40 minutes in the ruck to relieve Jamar. While certainly not a traditional role, the game has changed and I think this type of role would suit both him and the team well.

[Keyser Söze 0]

The true reason we invested so heavily in this years draft on midfielders is--Scott West. He is now full time- not part time as last year. Able to oput everything into it. Great teacher. Think of the year Ratten was at the Dees,he really brouht them on & quickly. Therefore a great chance Westy will do the same

Scott West has absolutely nothing to do with what players we selected in the draft.

No bearing whatsoever.

[Keyser Söze 0]

I don't want to turn this into a Miller thread, but if you have a look at him when he plays he has got no idea what to do with the footy when he's got the ball. He is a back to goal lead up forward and that is about all he will ever be. His ability as an AFL forward is pretty much limited as he doesn't have much of an idea when he is facing his own goal or when he is trying to bring his team mates into the game. He's almost as one dimensional as Ben Holland.

I'd agree with that to an extent.

Miller is a fantastic lead up forward, can get the ball and take a strong grab, but using the footy is definitely his achilles heel.

Kicking for goal is suspect and confidence driven, but in terms of using the footy he is only really effective when the best option is very obvious.

If nothing jumps out at him he becomes indecisive and lacks the vision to find a more obscure option that the great players can find.

He plays better when he plays on directly after taking a mark and with an open forward line so the options present themselves to him in an obvious manner.

Hence he sometimes plays on at inopportune moments.

Not an uncommon problem, but I think he struggles with this more than most with this aspect.

Either way, he will be more of an asset with a better midfield. Not sure they'll develop quick enough to save his skin, or maybe Watts will develop too quickly.

[rpfc 28,779]

I learnt something today - AFL clubs recruit based on who is their most readily identifiable assistant coach. We have Scott West so we recruit midfielders.

Did not know that...

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Scott West has absolutely nothing to do with what players we selected in the draft.

No bearing whatsoever.

Spot on.

And Ratten looked good in 2004 because Thompson was outstanding up to Rd 18 as the first dibs midfielder when he was injured. And White was AA. However from Rd 18 onwards when White tired and Thompson injured our midfield was pedestrian. Ratten had the two quality footballers in that year in the midfield which we did not have in the surrounding years.

Unless you are on the inside of the footy operations, I cant see how the average supporter can make an informed assessment of the performance of the assistant coaches.

[Axis of Bob 11,853]

I don't think Miller is part of any premiership plans, but he will certainly fill a role while the kids develop. But his performance is neither here nor there.

If you look at our key forwards and assume that Watts will make it as a key forward (which, for a pick 1, is not an unrealistic assumption) then we really only need one extra tall forward, if any. If Martin becomes that player that chips in with 2 goals a game and provides an secondary target then there's no problem. And this is assuming that Jurrah is simply a third tall forward.

But you can set up a forward line in so many ways that I really don't see it as a particularly pressing issue. Sure we could go down then Buddy/Roughy, Riewoldt/Kosi route, or we could go down the multi-pronged Geelong/Port Adelaide option (which, by the way, have won two of the last 3 flags) or even the small WestCoast/Bulldogs option (who were a kick off a Grand Final). As long as you can control the middle of the ground then then you can set up your forwards to suit the cattle you have.

either way, it's been shown that you can be a dominant team without a dominant key forward (Geelong/West Coast), but it very hard to be a dominant team with a stock standard midfield. The midfield is somewhere where we need to be more than just good, we need to be very close to the best.

[jacey 333]

OK, the most obvious and legitimate reason is that when BP made his list of potential draftees, from 1- ?, he had only 1 KPP in the top 20 (Butcher, gone at pick 8.) BP had also been quoted that youngsters that have been rated by 'Bigfooty groupthink' as top20- Tahlia, Black, Panos- are NOT key position players. They are more versatile 192cm flankers. Thus, even if we did pick these players on a 'needs basis', they would NOT have fulfilled our need for KPP.

KP forwards=

- Watts: to quote Josh Mahoney "Watts will be so good he'll be like 2 KP forwards". Our coaching staff are looking into the future and see him being a superstar of the AFL

- Jurrah: Is an absolute freak. May not be true KP forward, but is 190cm and plays very tall in terms of marking ability.

- Bate: I agree with Gary Lyon when he says he would be a top50 afl player if he played for Geelong. I am huge fan of Bate, think he will be a great player and become more recognised when our midfield make life easier for our forwards

- Morton: himself quoted as having aspiration for CHF. If he continues to bulk up as expected, WOW! Aim should be 95kg.

That's pretty much why we went for best available ie midfielders.

Jurrah, Bate and Morton are in the 191-194 range and Talia, Black and Panos are in the 191-194 range.

The FD rated the midfielders higher then them but the kicker is Talia, Black and Panos were rated as that athletic 191 types whom we've already got. They aren't that KPP we are looking for.

Butcher was one. Griiffths was the other type but Griffiths has a paper body. Anyone complain about Luke Molan over Dal Santo much?

We need to find a couple of studs in the midfield and build a strong midfield around those guys.

Edited December 1, 2009 by jacey

[Don24 103]

Great post and agree with it completely. Very exciting times.

Miller, miller is left out as he has peaked as a footballer and not improved int he last 3 seasons except maybe his kicking for goal. He is not a great footballer, in fact he is pretty poor. A great club man, good leader, ultimate professional and i wish he was a better player as he is the type of person you want at your club. But he simply is not a good player and as soon as the likes of Watts Jurrah Fitzpatrick cement a spot he is gone. Simple truth.

[Tony Tea 2,809]

And Ratten looked good in 2004 because Thompson was outstanding up to Rd 18 as the first dibs midfielder when he was injured. And White was AA. However from Rd 18 onwards when White tired and Thompson injured our midfield was pedestrian. Ratten had the two quality footballers in that year in the midfield which we did not have in the surrounding years.

Absolutely agree about Scott Thompson.

Out of the 12 games he played in 2004 before he injured his foot against Essendon in Round 13 we won 10. After his injury we were flogged by Adelaide at AAMI in round 14 (Craig's first game in charge); beat StKilda in round 15; battled past the cellar-dweller Bulldogs, Hawks and Tigers in rounds 16, 17 and 18; and finally lost the last 5 including the first week of the finals.

Thompson's loss to Melbourne was massive; we've barely played good clearance footy since he left.

And, naturally, since he's been at the Crows, he's hardly missed a game.