Western Sydney an uphill battle

[beelzebub 23,376]

Insurmountable West Sydney

So much waffle ...so much spin ...so much wasted opportunity.

The AFL is all about the Australian in Australian Football League. Its all about representation throughout the States and Territories, all about it being the ALL Australian Game and yet that Apple Isle down south, that land of fanatical followers goes without true voice in a national competition. And I cant help but ask why ? The AFL wants some exposure in the biggest State...and it has one. Yet even that team struggles with all that it has to call upon. This all goes to the inability of the AFL to understand the different natures of the various outposts of Australiana. Has Demetrious & Co ever lived in the western suburbs of Sydney.. I have. I can tell you its not the West of Melbourne, its not the West of Perth or Adelaide. Its different. Its non descript and yet it has its own flavour. No sport rules but League would come closest with Soccer a slightly distant second. Aussie Rules..W...T...F..is that..!!! The AFL may drag out some footage of some aberations that pass as interest but it really only reinforces its ignorance of its target audience. The tail that wags the dog still doesnt get it. A secondary style of following is all you might muster there, the West of Sydney , but it will take years, many years.

Those folk down South must feel very stiff at not being heard. Their voice seemingly lost across the Strait does not reach the ivory tower of AFL house, the resonance of thousands wailing in disbelief goes without ackowledgement from the sports highest office.

The Game could be so much better catered to by people who actually understand the backyard it exists in. *sigh*

Open your eyes AFL !!!

[Axis of Bob 11,812]

Your argument is based upon the incorrect assumption that the AFL is running the game for all Australians.

The AFL Commission was not created to do what is best for the public, it was created to run the game on behalf of the clubs. Therefore the AFL will do what is best for the game and, by virtue, the member clubs of the AFL. If the AFL thinks that West Sydney will benefit the AFL and its member clubs more than a Tasmania team, then the AFL is right to ignore Tasmania.

Besides, adding a Tasmania side will do nothing to grow the game, which is the reason for adding a new side. It may even hurt the AFL's member clubs to bring in a new team since the market is very small and the population already follows AFL footy - by taking away those fans from the current clubs while not growing the game at all will actually hurt the clubs and go against the AFL Commission's whole reason to exist.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Your argument is based upon the incorrect assumption that the AFL is running the game for all Australians.

The AFL Commission was not created to do what is best for the public, it was created to run the game on behalf of the clubs. Therefore the AFL will do wat is best for the game and, by virtue, the member clubs of the AFL. If the AFL thinks that West Sydney will benefit the AFL and its member clubs more than a Tasmania team, then the AFL is right to ignore Tasmania.

Besides, adding a Tasmania side will do nothing to grow the game, which is the reason for ading a new side. It may even hurt the AFL's member clubs to bring in a new team since the market is very small and the population already follows AFL footy - by taking away those fans from the current clubs while not growing the game at all will actually hurt the clubs and go against the AFL Commission's whole reason to exist.

I make no such assumption, infact I dont believe it really has the interests of teh clubs it WORKS for..it cedes to its own ego alone.

To say thatthe inclusion of a Tasmanian team affords no growth is absurd.

The AFL is their to work for its constituent owners..i.e the current teams but it works to its own accord often ignoring and riding roughshod over them. You seem to ignore the fact that practically no one in the west of Sydney could care less about attending sport let alone AFL games.

You obviously dont know the lay of the land up there

[Axis of Bob 11,812]

Me:

Your argument is based upon the incorrect assumption that the AFL is running the game for all Australians.

You:

Its all about representation throughout the States and Territories, all about it being the ALL Australian Game

I make no such assumption

You said this. You made the assumption that the AFL is all about representing the states and territories. It's not - it's about representing the member clubs. A Tasmanian team does nothing to help AFL's member clubs, so it should not pursue placing a club in Tasmania.

I know very little about West Sydney so I have made, and will make, no argument about whether or not the AFL goes ahead with a West Sydney team. But I do know that it definitely should not introduce a Tasmanian side. It would hurt the Melbourne Football Club to do so.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Me:

You:

You said this. You made the assumption that the AFL is all about representing the states and territories. It's not - it's about representing the member clubs. A Tasmanian team does nothing to help AFL's member clubs, so it should not pursue placing a club in Tasmania.

I know very little about West Sydney so I have made, and will make, no argument about whether or not the AFL goes ahead with a West Sydney team. But I do know that it definitely should not introduce a Tasmanian side. It would hurt the Melbourne Football Club to do so.

yes you do...you say the AFL knows best.. despite many others.. arguing its lind endeavour is insane.

I have said all along that the AFL disregards its constituent clubs and works to its own ends..ie. the tail waging the dog.

The AFL..or more so certain executives of such have a view that it thinks is Nationalistic and in so is working for the clubs but its only lip service. It makes no sense spending money hand over fist in an inappropriate schedule towards an outcome that is manifestly before its time. Its a generation early in regards to any warranting of a second Sydney team at AFL level.

The only club that would hurt by the inclusion of a Tasmanaina team is surely Hawthorn.It must know that its on borrowed time

[Axis of Bob 11,812]

You:

yes you do (make an argument for West Sydney)...you say the AFL knows best

Me:

If the AFL thinks that West Sydney will benefit the AFL and its member clubs more than a Tasmania team, then the AFL is right to ignore Tasmania.

I did not make an argument for West Sydney. I made the argument that Tasmania should not happen. The above comment relates specifically to the thinking of the AFL Commission - it's their decision and if they decide that it will benefit the clubs more to go to West Sydney than not then that is their perogative and duty. I don't have an opinion of whether or not they are right to go, but they are right to make the decision in the best interests of the clubs not the people of Australia.

I don't know enough, so I don't have an opinion on whether West Sydney should go ahead or not. I do have the opinion that Tasmania shouldn't.

Every club will lose members from the inclusion of Tasmania, Hawthorn would be badly affected as would St Kilda. Melbourne would also lose members and supporters, even if it's not as many. I'm willing to take a small hit for a a risk that may have a huge payoff for Melbourne FC, but I am dead against taking a bigger hit for a team that will not add significantly to the wellbeing of the Melbourne Football Club.

Again - I'm not arguing West Sydney - I don't know enough about it.

I repeat that your argument is based on the wrong assumption that the AFL runs the game for the people of Australia - they don't. They run it on behalf of its member clubs and these member clubs will be hurt by the introduction of a Tasmanian team.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Im affraid ...you dont get it..the AFL runs the game despite the clubs. The money the AFL has is phenonemal whilst the clubs, essentially the owners of the AFL go begging.

How would exactly the MFC lose out or suffer by teh Inclusion of a Tasmanian team.. a pretty broad sweep of a brush there if I might say. Hawthorn wil simply by lack of sponsorship and lack of effective monopoly. I fail to see what real impact it has on others. I would argue that bringing that State up to the National level will only focus and emphasise the interest of that Apple Isle in the game

Again.. I DONT think the AFL runs the game for the benefit of all Australians.. Quite the contrary..just itself

[Little Goffy 14,546]

I was a concerned skeptic about West Sydney, with occassional dashes of mocking the idiocy of it all, but I was prepared to believe that there was a worthwhile project under it all, and would have pushed to make it work if it had gone ahead, I mean, those people NEED AFL.

But then they tried to suggest that West Sydney and Canberra could be portions of the same team support and culture, with a more general 'West Sydney/NSW character'.

It would be perhaps the first time in history supporters of the SAME TEAM would have to be seperated into different sections of a stadium to avoid crowd violence.

Definative evidence that the AFL have no idea, no idea, what they are doing.

[casey scorp 2]

Without wanting to debate the merits of the AFL's position, but taking it as a given, my theory is based on the following:

• the AFL sees no growth (read additional TV $) in Tassie as the people are already footy mad and watch as much footy on TV as they can

• the AFL’s view is that only a small % penetration in a huge market (ie Sydney) will generate large additional revenues

• the AFL is committed to Western Sydney and will not back away

• the AFL has received regular lobbying from the Tasmanian Government and population for a team to be established in Tassie instead of Western Sydney, but will not substitute Tassie for WS for the above reasons

• the AFL has been a bit embarrassed by the Senate Inquiry into the matter, and can only afford to thumb its nose at the Australian Parliament to some extent.

North Melbourne cannot survive in its current incarnation for more than a few years. Its white knights have disappeared, and its membership levels will flag once the temporary enthusiasm of non-North supporters wanes.

Solution – offer once again to North the prospect of a relocation, but this time to Tassie. It:

• is closer to its traditional supporters in Melbourne than the Gold Coast was

• gives Tassie a team

• gets rid of the political pressure

• neutralises the argument of those who say the AFL should be in Tassie rather than in WS

• retains an even number of teams at 18.

[Axis of Bob 11,812]

This is my last post on this because I can see this will get very tedious, very quickly. Plus I'm not really trying to present my argument to you, but rather those (few) people that my read this thread.

You original post, the second sentence in your main paragraph, stated that the AFL was about "representation throughout the States and Territories, all about it being the ALL Australian Game". That is clearly wrong, it is about its member clubs.

How would the MFC lose out?

- Tasmania is a mature market. It will not bring new people or new money to the competition. AFL is the biggest game in Tasmania, even without a team. You are simply trying to reward those people by giving them a team. However since those people already follow a team you are forcing them to change their allegiances in order to make this new Tasmanian team work. You are robbing from the current clubs' supporter bases to draw the supporter base for Tasmaina (since these people already follow AFL).

- The money the AFL spends on setting up a Tasmanian team will have no return to the current clubs because the market is not growing. The TV rights are not going to increase by having a Tasmanian team because they already watch the AFL. The TV advertisers won'thave access to any new viewers in order to pay more for TV. Nothing has changed, except an increase in the money spent by the AFL on Tasmania.

- Decreased financial distributions to current AFL clubs. The current distributions are split between 16 clubs - soon to be 17. If you increase the number of clubs without increasing total revenue then the revenue per club goes down. If revenue goes down then we lose out.

Basically it's not advantageous to us, or any of the AFL's member clubs so the AFL should not pursue it.

You state that "the AFL runs the game despite (sic) the clubs". Just because you don't understand it, it doesn't mean that their basic charter isn't to run the competition and do what is best for the competition. Where do you think the AFL spends its money? It either goes back into the clubs or it goes into growing the game which will ensure future dividends to the clubs. It continues to grow the market in order for the TV rights deal to increase which brings more money into the game which will help the clubs. It's aim is not to be popular, it's aim is to do what is best for the game and, as a result, the AFL's member clubs.

Oh, BTW, if the AFL only cares about itself and not its clubs then where does the money go? I'll tell you.

The AFL only spends money on:

- Running the games of footy so that the clubs can play

- Growing the game to benefit clubs in the future

- Distributing the excess funds to the clubs

If the AFL runs things to benefit itself, then it is only benefiting the clubs, either directly or indirectly. I would hope that the AFL runs the game to benefit itself because this then flows down to benefit each of the clubs, including the club that I love - Melbourne.

Anyway, it's been fun.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Without wanting to debate the merits of the AFL's position, but taking it as a given, my theory is based on the following:

• the AFL sees no growth (read additional TV $) in Tassie as the people are already footy mad and watch as much footy on TV as they can

• the AFL's view is that only a small % penetration in a huge market (ie Sydney) will generate large additional revenues

• the AFL is committed to Western Sydney and will not back away

• the AFL has received regular lobbying from the Tasmanian Government and population for a team to be established in Tassie instead of Western Sydney, but will not substitute Tassie for WS for the above reasons

• the AFL has been a bit embarrassed by the Senate Inquiry into the matter, and can only afford to thumb its nose at the Australian Parliament to some extent.

North Melbourne cannot survive in its current incarnation for more than a few years. Its white knights have disappeared, and its membership levels will flag once the temporary enthusiasm of non-North supporters wanes.

Solution – offer once again to North the prospect of a relocation, but this time to Tassie. It:

• is closer to its traditional supporters in Melbourne than the Gold Coast was

• gives Tassie a team

• gets rid of the political pressure

• neutralises the argument of those who say the AFL should be in Tassie rather than in WS

• retains an even number of teams at 18.

What about this, North Tassie Roos to play home games @ Launceston, & 1/2 of their away games in Canberra. The other 5 or so away games played interstate.

[beelzebub 23,376]

You original post, the second sentence in your main paragraph, stated that the AFL was about "representation throughout the States and Territories, all about it being the ALL Australian Game". That is clearly wrong, it is about its member clubs.

Bob..thats the whole point and youve miscontrued it.. It OUGHT to be about the clubs but thats NOT how teh AFL goes about things. It goes about its OWN agenda..and thats to be the biggest behemoth of a business it can..and to hell with the real issues.

edit

P.S>

a lot of the money remains with the AFL...its not like a Co-op where al lis distributed.. It acts as a defacto trustee... Lots of Overheads you see !!

[Strawbsodwyer 0]

this whole plan is garbage, it is based purely on TV money they believe they want to increase the TV audience of AFL and they are going to do that by putting a team in West Sydney.

West Sydney is going to be a bottomless fund of wasted money. If they thought getting people from sydney to watch AFL was hard then they better be braced for something much harder. League and soccer are entrenched in Western Sydney, there is little growth in AFL out there despite what reports say. The AFL should ensure the survival of clubs that make this game great (Melbourne) rather than some team no one cares about. Further, no one is going to want to play there, at least with the gold coast there are some players that originally lived there. West Sydney are going to be the competition whipping boys for many many years.

[QueenC 74]

this whole plan is garbage, it is based purely on TV money they believe they want to increase the TV audience of AFL and they are going to do that by putting a team in West Sydney.

West Sydney is going to be a bottomless fund of wasted money. If they thought getting people from sydney to watch AFL was hard then they better be braced for something much harder. League and soccer are entrenched in Western Sydney, there is little growth in AFL out there despite what reports say. The AFL should ensure the survival of clubs that make this game great (Melbourne) rather than some team no one cares about. Further, no one is going to want to play there, at least with the gold coast there are some players that originally lived there. West Sydney are going to be the competition whipping boys for many many years.

I live in Sydney, and again IT WILL NOT WORK.......

There is this assumption, seemingly held by the AFL in all their arrogance, that because we are as big a city as we are then we should and will automatically support another team. This is complete and utter crap. There is little to no real or substantial support for the code up here at the best of times (just ask the Swans, who had to win a Premiership to get any attention even after years in the finals) let alone in the part of the city where kids grow up with either a league footy or a soccer ball under their pillows.

And as for TV money, well that comes down to ratings, and who the hell really wants to see Sydney v West Sydney? No-one up here I can assure you.

I understand that this franchise is a long term investment, and any benefits to it will probably not be seen for upwards of twenty-five years, and that given the massive levels of growth in the Western demographic of Sydney the AFL don't want to miss out on plundering it, but at what expense along the way? The ratings up here for AFL games are abysmal and decreasing (Channel 10 must be kicking themselves that they are committed to broadcasting all Saturday night Swans games, while Channel 7 has never bothered broadcasting live into the city on Friday nights given the ratings black hole), as are attendances and that is for a side that is actually well loved, developed, well established and by and large pretty damn successful.

[beelzebub 23,376]

Ive said it before ..and here goes again. If they must have a West Sydney team, use it as the magoos for the Swans and have it play in whatever league ( Canberra probably ) or...or.. the VFL. If it grows genuine legs, if it garners a true following out there ....then it will be abundantly apparent for all to see and it might get to enter the AFL at a much later date in much the same way as Port and Freo. But to just plonk down some posts, throw bottomless cheques at the abyss all in hopes of something is just plain idiocy. Everyone seems to know it but Vlad

[QueenC 74]

Ive said it before ..and here goes again. If they must have a West Sydney team, use it as the magoos for the Swans and have it play in whatever league ( Canberra probably ) or...or.. the VFL. If it grows genuine legs, if it garners a true following out there ....then it will be abundantly apparent for all to see and it might get to enter the AFL at a much later date in much the same way as Port and Freo. But to just plonk down some posts, throw bottomless cheques at the abyss all in hopes of something is just plain idiocy. Everyone seems to know it but Vlad

I like that idea Bub, there really isn't much of a second tier system currently for the Swans to work with up here.........

And as for Vlad he seems to have ordained himself as the man to bring AFL to the poor uneducated masses out West, either that or it is just his ego doing the talking.

[sideshowbob 0]

Ive said it before ..and here goes again. If they must have a West Sydney team, use it as the magoos for the Swans and have it play in whatever league ( Canberra probably ) or...or.. the VFL.

I think that would be even more disastrous. Why would anyone in Sydney follow a second division team?

The West Sydney move is all about creating new fans - not quite "build it and they will come" but more of a "they will never come if nothing is built there". The AFL already has captured the Tassie market and they do not need a team there to maintain that dominance. If other codes think national league teams can be set up in Tassie, let them have it. I bet the NRL, ARU and FFA don't even think about touching the place.

[beelzebub 23,376]

I think that would be even more disastrous. Why would anyone in Sydney follow a second division team?

The West Sydney move is all about creating new fans - not quite "build it and they will come" but more of a "they will never come if nothing is built there". The AFL already has captured the Tassie market and they do not need a team there to maintain that dominance. If other codes think national league teams can be set up in Tassie, let them have it. I bet the NRL, ARU and FFA don't even think about touching the place.

Thats kinda the whole point. No one probably will much but it will have the synergy of the Swans going for it. It would be more ground roots in nature , a whole lot cheaper to operate and If there is any genuine following of the code its there for the offing. .

The real question is....why would anyone in Sydney follow a second Syudney team ? The answer is probably not. Thats the whole argument. A least a West Sydney playing under the guise of th eSwans 2nds already has some following. In this way you are still only expecting the NSW consituents to follow ONE team. Just two opportunities to watch them etc.

[52k2 0]

With all the arguments for or against a AFL team in Tassie, please remember no matter what vlad proclaims

the AFL is NOT I repeat NOT a national comp. without a state of Tassie team.

Paul Roos is already worried about the swans future if they arnt sucessful. How would they handle a second

[censored] team? The AFL cant build a new stadium by itself, they need state money. Look at the last NSW budget

no money there and in the current financial position I cant see them getting any for a very long time.

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

The AFL Commission was not created to do what is best for the public, it was created to run the game on behalf of the clubs. Therefore the AFL will do wat is best for the game and, by virtue, the member clubs of the AFL. If the AFL thinks that West Sydney will benefit the AFL and its member clubs more than a Tasmania team, then the AFL is right to ignore Tasmania.

I would like to know how Ploughing Millions of $$$ into a Club Franchise that is Doomed to fail is a Benefit to the Melbourne Football Club, which at the Moment is in Debt?? How do we benefit.....

[H_T 3,047]

I would like to know how Ploughing Millions of $$$ into a Club Franchise that is Doomed to fail is a Benefit to the Melbourne Football Club, which at the Moment is in Debt?? How do we benefit.....

Good question. How do we benefit...Umm, expansion on TV rights dollars, perhaps to over $1 Billion. As Axis of Bob said, Isn't that more money to clubs then?

By the way the AFL Commission has given the go ahead for expansion into West Sydney. Vlad as CEO, is probably the puppet.

I agree with Axis of Bob here: -

The AFL Commission was not created to do what is best for the public, it was created to run the game on behalf of the clubs. Therefore the AFL will do what is best for the game and, by virtue, the member clubs of the AFL. If the AFL thinks that West Sydney will benefit the AFL and its member clubs more than a Tasmania team, then the AFL is right to ignore Tasmania.

Whilst I am cautious about the West Sydney move, the AFL will move on decisions on what is best for the game which is the current clubs and the expansion of the AFL competition. Establishing a presence in West Sydney would be a committment to the continued growth of the game against the threat of foreign codes. Tassie won't be neglected, they'll just have to wait their turn.

[QueenC 74]

Good question. How do we benefit...Umm, expansion on TV rights dollars, perhaps to over $1 Billion. As Axis of Bob said, Isn't that more money to clubs then?

While this is good in theory there is no guarantee, especially now, that the TV rights will increase at all........

Nor is there any guarantee than the market (biggest in the country) the AFL wants to conquer actually wants to watch what it is selling. This will absolutely effect the next broadcast deal, and not to the better I would have thought, as there will be a huge pull on the AFL finances, without the means to sell it to the very people it is there for. Ratings lead to advertising revenue and networks aren't stupid.

Whilst I am cautious about the West Sydney move, the AFL will move on decisions on what is best for the game which is the current clubs and the expansion of the AFL competition. Establishing a presence in West Sydney would be a committment to the continued growth of the game against the threat of foreign codes. Tassie won't be neglected, they'll just have to wait their turn.

True, this is the theme (reason for) of expansion no matter how unbelievably arrogant it is......

But the thing that everyone seems to be forgetting here is that in Sydney, particularly out west AFL is the foreign code.

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

Good question. How do we benefit...Umm, expansion on TV rights dollars, perhaps to over $1 Billion. As Axis of Bob said, Isn't that more money to clubs then?

By the way the AFL Commission has given the go ahead for expansion into West Sydney. Vlad as CEO, is probably the puppet.

I agree with Axis of Bob here: -

Whilst I am cautious about the West Sydney move, the AFL will move on decisions on what is best for the game which is the current clubs and the expansion of the AFL competition. Establishing a presence in West Sydney would be a committment to the continued growth of the game against the threat of foreign codes. Tassie won't be neglected, they'll just have to wait their turn.

I can still not see how The Melbourne Football Club will Benefit from this Venture-Your answers are the same spin the AFL tells me. The Sydney Franchises will both be economic Basket Cases Long after i am dead.

How is that a benefit.

The Last Round of Broadcast Right were $780 Mill & 5 clubs are still on Drip feed-The whole thing is Bull sh#$%^&t

[Whispering_Jack 30,136]

I love the politics behind this because, for once, it's not the AFL dictating terms but rather, the Senate Committee telling the AFL about the facts of life. Bob is right about the AFL's mandate being to look after itself and its own interests but government has other priorities and, in this instance, the priorites lean in favour of fairness to an established football state and against the concept of trying to muscle in on an already crowded market in Sydney's west. Given that we live in what some would describe as a free market society the AFL could say that it can please itself and do what it wants. However, government funding of sport is also an important issue so the AFL would be well advised to take heed of what the Senators are telling them.

[casey scorp 2]

Given that we live in what some would describe as a free market society the AFL could say that it can please itself and do what it wants. However, government funding of sport is also an important issue so the AFL would be well advised to take heed of what the Senators are telling them.

And that is why I believe that North Melbourne will end up in Tassie - to meet the political imperatives of Government, while still allowing the establishment of an 18th team in WS.