Round 14: Melbourne v West Coast

[Doggo 32]

'Doggo', we'll be trying to compete with them in September in 3 - 4 years time & they Are ahead of us with their list quality now.

What's your point? Speculating finals in 3-4 years time is a pointless task as so much can happen between now and then- with regards to the list, injury, form etc etc. Obviously having WCE miss out on a PP would be beneficial to us in the long run, but if they are really fair dinkum about winning less than 5, they'll make it happen somehow.

For MFC, the difference between picks 1 & 2 (WCE win more than 4 and miss PP), 1 & 3 (WCE win less than 5 and get PP - the most likely scenario), and picks 2 & 4 (we finish 15th above WCE) in the grand scheme of things is minimal really. My point is that i'll be happy with 2 picks in the top 5. Period.

In all likeliness, even if we do beat the Eagles, we will still probably finish below them (given their run of home games late in the season, and the fact they already have 3 wins and far superior percentage), and have picks 1 & 2 or 1 & 3 intact (dependant on whether they win less than 5). But if we somehow manage to be "out-tanked" and finish 15th instead of 16th, it's not the end of the world by any means. We'll still have picks 2 & 4. Can't complain about having picks 2 and 4, seriously?!

This is stating the bleeding obvious, but the only worst case scenario in my mind is to win 5 games. We MUST NOT win 5 games, pure and simple. I honestly can't see us winning 5, even if we come away from the WCE clash with a win.

I couldn't care less about what WCE choose to do, to be completely honest.

[Spirit of the Demon 252]

The problem with most people around here is that they lack even the most rudimentary knowledge of what football is all about.

FCS stop talking about a game we're not due to play for almost 2 weeks.

We play the Brisbane Lions this week and everybody knows that in our game the correct approach is to tank it one week at a time.

[Bruce Almighty 0]

West Coast - Won 3 Lost 9

Melbourne - Won 1 Lost 11

As much as nearly everyone wants a win here on Demonland asap, this game in two weeks time will go a long way to determining the following....

1/ If Melbourne lose

a) Almost confirms Melbourne receives the wooden spoon and picks 1 & 2 in the National draft

b Puts West Coast in doubt for Priority Pick for Draft (no room to move - 1 more win and it's all gone)

2/ If Melbourne win

a) Wooden Spoon up for grabs

b Puts Doubt of obtaining Picks 1 & 2 - more likely 1 and 3

c) West Coast favoured to get a priority pick at end of year.

Who do you want to win this game?

play some debutants

[deanox 9,931]

I hope we lose to WCE. I will yell for us the whole time, I will be excited and happy if we win, but I hope we lose. There is no benefit in us winning that game. end of story.

[dee-luded 2,959]

HaHa that's the attitude of the past 45 years. We need Class Players to win against the TOP TEAMS. To get those top players we need to get the Best Draft Picks Before teams like West Coke Get them.

Please everybody understand this before one of us DIES!!

I don't want to win 10 -12 Games a year. I want Melbourne to win 20 a year. NO PAIN NO GAIN......

Yes your right 'why you little'.

We need Class Players to win against the TOP TEAMS.

And not just those Class players before the other teams, but we also need to deny them the extra picks.

They are maintaining the gap on us if we allow them the extra pick.

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

...West coast. Ask yourself why are they going so bad this year having won the flag only 2.5 years ago?

No Judd, no Cousins and Kerr getting the no1 tag each week. I also suspect losing Judd and Cousins the way that they did gutted the side.

[old55 23,613]

The point that Rojik and IWS have been making is that an additional high draft pick will not make one iota of difference to a team that has a losing culture. Instilling the current team with some confidence will achieve better results in the future, rather than pinning your hopes on 1 draft pick.

OK fine.

It's on record that mo, iva and rojik reckon that Tom Scully wont make any difference to our club.

Anyone else want to jump on board their bandwagon.

I'm tipping it's going to end up a lonely 12 year ride and they'll be denying they were ever on it in 2 years from now.

Let's see.

BTW I think youi'll find Rhino has the memory of an elephant ...

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Assuming Bailey and Co. are list managing, (ie tanking) so we are able to gain access to these priority picks, how do you think the middle age players feel?

If I was playing footy for the dees and I was a Davey, Green, Bruce, Rivers or Miller I certainly wouldn't be happy with the way thing's are going at Melbourne. In fact I would be ready to move clubs because the mentality on this site seems to be that we won't be pushing for a flag until 2012. So ask yourself Rhino....

Do you think the middle to late aged players are happy at Melbourne at the moment? Do you think they are excited by the fact that we are trying to gain draft picks so we can "build for the future", whilst knowing that there will be a very slim chance they will be around then?

It's a tough one isn't it? While I am content with sitting out the year in one way, knowing we will have picks 1 and 2 or 1 and 3. I am also very worried about the morale of some of our senior players and I wonder how much longer they can cope with this losing culture.

I just bloody hope that we will win a grand final from this "re-building" phase, because if we don't. I will be one fiery hot little potato.

Go Dee's.

Its called life in a sporting club in a competitive competition.

So would you be happy to be a bottom half dweller eeking out a win here and there with no prospect of actually making a tilt for the flag?

As for the middle to late player which players are actually commanding their position in the side? Green..yes. Bruce...maybe. I think some of the player you worry about need to justify themselves as footballers today.

The game and club is bigger than them and they either play to become part of the future or prepare to be part of the past.

[old55 23,613]

Assuming Bailey and Co. are list managing, (ie tanking) so we are able to gain access to these priority picks, how do you think the middle age players feel?

If I was playing footy for the dees and I was a Davey, Green, Bruce, Rivers or Miller I certainly wouldn't be happy with the way thing's are going at Melbourne. In fact I would be ready to move clubs because the mentality on this site seems to be that we won't be pushing for a flag until 2012. So ask yourself Rhino....

Do you think the middle to late aged players are happy at Melbourne at the moment? Do you think they are excited by the fact that we are trying to gain draft picks so we can "build for the future", whilst knowing that there will be a very slim chance they will be around then?

It's a tough one isn't it? While I am content with sitting out the year in one way, knowing we will have picks 1 and 2 or 1 and 3. I am also very worried about the morale of some of our senior players and I wonder how much longer they can cope with this losing culture.

I just bloody hope that we will win a grand final from this "re-building" phase, because if we don't. I will be one fiery hot little potato.

Go Dee's.

It's not tough at all - there's an excellent chance that Miiller, Davey and Rivers will be around to enjoy the fruits - if they're good enough.

Green and Bruce will be gone but can enjoy being part of a team on the rise - they had their time in the sun under Daniher but couldn't pull it off.

There's no guarantee of a flag from this rebuilding because we're up against it in so many ways - fixture, resources etc. But there's an iron-clad water-proof dead-set-certain guarantee of NO flag if we don't do it.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

No Judd, no Cousins and Kerr getting the no1 tag each week. I also suspect losing Judd and Cousins the way that they did gutted the side.

While this is partially the reason for their collapse in performance doesn't this just mildly ring a bell and suggest the importance of getting access to recruiting star players and their importance within the team. Judd was pick 3 in 2001 and Cousins was heavily sort after by 3 Clubs under the F/S rule.

Pick smick.

[H_T 3,049]

OK fine.

It's on record that mo, iva and rojik reckon that Tom Scully wont make any difference to our club.

Anyone else want to jump on board their bandwagon.

I'm tipping it's going to end up a lonely 12 year ride and they'll be denying they were ever on it in 2 years from now.

Let's see.

BTW I think youi'll find Rhino has the memory of an elephant ...

If that is correct, if they think that Scully will make not one iota of a difference to our club, then their lack of football knowledge has deserted them. I'm also tipping if and where we finish the season, they'll do a backflip and will open their arms and welcome the first two (or 2 of first 3) draft picks for the club. So that the club can take the cream of the crop in the Draft.

Quality players (the blue chip variety) are what makes a team 'great'. They help lead by example. Who do we currently have that has been leading by example for the last two years and will be leading by example for the next 8-10 years? No one. Our club yearns for these picks, let's grab 'em while we can.

[45HG 1,539]

Their lack of football knowledge has deserted them?

[H_T 3,049]

Their lack of football knowledge has deserted them?

Yeah! Of what little they had left... (kidding guys...)

[45HG 1,539]

I'll go on record as saying I can't wait until this God forsaken priority pick no longer exists.

[Hannabal 4]

These are the views of a Hawthorn supporter on another site. I'm posting them because I completely agree with his sentiments.

"Are you going to tell me that the picks Carlton have snagged in the last few years will not know a winning culture because the club tanked a few extra games to make sure they dipped into the top end of the draft just one more time? Just look at them now. Their talent and competitiveness will come to the fore and they'll create their own 'winning culture'. Coming thru the hard times and remembering just how hard you had it when you started and how you don't want to go back there.

This winning culture talk is crap. AFL footballers are competitive beasts. They don't need to be involved in wins when they are 18-20 to want to do it when they are 23-25. They've wanted to win ever since they were in the under 12's. Every kid does."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some posters don't believe that one player will make one iota of difference to the MFC. I couldn't disagree more. Does anyone understand the impact that Chris Judd is having on Carlton ? And I don't just mean on the field. He has changed the way the players train, the way they eat, the way they conduct themselves (except Fev), etc. His impact on the psyche of the group is enormous.

Does anyone think that Hawthorn would have won a flag without Franklin ? Maybe some of you don't crave a flag, or accept that the possibility is extremely remote. A flag is the only thing that keeps me going. This club has to do all in its power to press for a flag. Its soul will wither and die if a flag isn't the sole objective.

I'm led to believe that with the talent this year it's Scully then daylight. And that's not to say that there won't be other very good players on offer. So Doggo, I don't want pick 2 because it means we won't get Scully. Scully lives his whole life making decisions that are best for his football. He doesn't drink because of his football. Jason McArtney stated that he'd be playing seniors all ready for half the AFL competition he's that good. When he plays for Vic Metro it looks like an AFL player coming back to junior footy. Does anyone remember how Trent Cotchin couldn't handle a tag in his State carnival year ? Scully copped a "heavy tag" and was best for Vic Metro racking up 30 disposals. Paul Connors told me that if we picked up Scully he'd unquestionably captain Melbourne. His former junior coach said that he has a huge appetite for the ball. He plays inside and out. He has good pace and good kicking skills off both feet. He reckons he'll be elite amongst elites. So I say that a player of Scully's talents will make a difference to the MFC.

There's a very good chance that the Saints and Carlton will win flags in the next 2-3 years. Somehow I think the old chestnut of "how many no. 1's have played in premierships" question will quickly disappear. The sytsem is in place for a reason. And Melbourne needs a pp for a reason. The top picks coming through together will make us better. It's not the only thing, nobody says it is, but talented, committed players have success. How many greats of the game don't play in premierships ? There's not many. And the best chance to get stars is with the best picks. Of course it's not the only way, but I'd rather have the odds in our favour and have the best picks possible. A [censored] coach can win a flag with great players, but a great coach won't win a flag with [censored] players.

[H_T 3,049]

I'll go on record as saying I can't wait until this God forsaken priority pick no longer exists.

I propose the AFL reviews the 'Priority Pick' on Monday, August 31st, 2009..for the changes to be made prior to the start of the 2010 season for the 2010 season.

I also propose that the AFL review the picks that have been granted to the 17th AFL franchise, Gold Coast.

Should be 1 (GCFC), 2 (GCFC), 3(MFC), 4, 5(GCFC),..,..,.. :D

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

OK fine.

It's on record that mo, iva and rojik reckon that Tom Scully wont make any difference to our club.

Anyone else want to jump on board their bandwagon.

I'm tipping it's going to end up a lonely 12 year ride and they'll be denying they were ever on it in 2 years from now.

Let's see.

BTW I think youi'll find Rhino has the memory of an elephant ...

That's putting words in my mouth. Of course some players are more valuable than others, and he might well be one of them, but if it means cheering losses to get him then I don't want him. I want us to win everytime we go out on the ground and if that happens to cost us a pick so be it. Fwiw I don't see us having a hope in hell of winning five games this year so this whole discussion is probably a moot point.

[Nasher 33,616]

That's putting words in my mouth...

It's actually what mo said, almost verbatim. And he claims to be representing your argument.

[H_T 3,049]

That's putting words in my mouth. Of course some players are more valuable than others, and he might well be one of them, but if it means cheering losses to get him then I don't want him. I want us to win everytime we go out on the ground and if that happens to cost us a pick so be it.

I understand about the winning side of things. But I can't fathom why on earth when an opportunity presents itself (such as Scully who is a standout) as in this case, you'd think otherwise. I can't persuade you and I don't wish to, but I'll finish with this: -

Ask youself: -

Do I want my team to make the finals?

Would I like to see a Premiership for the MFC, the first time since 1964?

Do I want to see it as soon as possible so I can enjoy it?

Or do I want to see my team continual to struggle on and off the field within the AFL with cause for concern my team may fold?

It's a dog eat dog world out there among the sides. Soon there will be 17, then 18 sides. One team finishes on top each year. One team wins a flag each year. We've played in two grand finals since 1964. We've lost those two convincingly with what we thought were pretty good sides. That's in the space of 45 years.

By the way, my answer to the first three questions above is............"BLOODY OATH I DO!!"

Fair dinkum some Melbourne supporters need a fire cracker shoved up their coite so they can wake up and smell the roses.

so they can wake up and smell the roses.

Translation: - so they can see what is needed to improve the team.....as other clubs have done in the past.

ie. Answer: Scully

[titan_uranus 25,020]

These are the views of a Hawthorn supporter on another site. I'm posting them because I completely agree with his sentiments.

"Are you going to tell me that the picks Carlton have snagged in the last few years will not know a winning culture because the club tanked a few extra games to make sure they dipped into the top end of the draft just one more time? Just look at them now. Their talent and competitiveness will come to the fore and they'll create their own 'winning culture'. Coming thru the hard times and remembering just how hard you had it when you started and how you don't want to go back there.

This winning culture talk is crap. AFL footballers are competitive beasts. They don't need to be involved in wins when they are 18-20 to want to do it when they are 23-25. They've wanted to win ever since they were in the under 12's. Every kid does."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some posters don't believe that one player will make one iota of difference to the MFC. I couldn't disagree more. Does anyone understand the impact that Chris Judd is having on Carlton ? And I don't just mean on the field. He has changed the way the players train, the way they eat, the way they conduct themselves (except Fev), etc. His impact on the psyche of the group is enormous.

Does anyone think that Hawthorn would have won a flag without Franklin ? Maybe some of you don't crave a flag, or accept that the possibility is extremely remote. A flag is the only thing that keeps me going. This club has to do all in its power to press for a flag. Its soul will wither and die if a flag isn't the sole objective.

I'm led to believe that with the talent this year it's Scully then daylight. And that's not to say that there won't be other very good players on offer. So Doggo, I don't want pick 2 because it means we won't get Scully. Scully lives his whole life making decisions that are best for his football. He doesn't drink because of his football. Jason McArtney stated that he'd be playing seniors all ready for half the AFL competition he's that good. When he plays for Vic Metro it looks like an AFL player coming back to junior footy. Does anyone remember how Trent Cotchin couldn't handle a tag in his State carnival year ? Scully copped a "heavy tag" and was best for Vic Metro racking up 30 disposals. Paul Connors told me that if we picked up Scully he'd unquestionably captain Melbourne. His former junior coach said that he has a huge appetite for the ball. He plays inside and out. He has good pace and good kicking skills off both feet. He reckons he'll be elite amongst elites. So I say that a player of Scully's talents will make a difference to the MFC.

There's a very good chance that the Saints and Carlton will win flags in the next 2-3 years. Somehow I think the old chestnut of "how many no. 1's have played in premierships" question will quickly disappear. The sytsem is in place for a reason. And Melbourne needs a pp for a reason. The top picks coming through together will make us better. It's not the only thing, nobody says it is, but talented, committed players have success. How many greats of the game don't play in premierships ? There's not many. And the best chance to get stars is with the best picks. Of course it's not the only way, but I'd rather have the odds in our favour and have the best picks possible. A [censored] coach can win a flag with great players, but a great coach won't win a flag with [censored] players.

Good post.

I'm looking forward to mo's response to this.

[dee-luded 2,959]

These are the views of a Hawthorn supporter on another site. I'm posting them because I completely agree with his sentiments.

"Are you going to tell me that the picks Carlton have snagged in the last few years will not know a winning culture because the club tanked a few extra games to make sure they dipped into the top end of the draft just one more time? Just look at them now. Their talent and competitiveness will come to the fore and they'll create their own 'winning culture'. Coming thru the hard times and remembering just how hard you had it when you started and how you don't want to go back there.

This winning culture talk is crap. AFL footballers are competitive beasts. They don't need to be involved in wins when they are 18-20 to want to do it when they are 23-25. They've wanted to win ever since they were in the under 12's. Every kid does."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some posters don't believe that one player will make one iota of difference to the MFC. I couldn't disagree more. Does anyone understand the impact that Chris Judd is having on Carlton ? And I don't just mean on the field. He has changed the way the players train, the way they eat, the way they conduct themselves (except Fev), etc. His impact on the psyche of the group is enormous.

Does anyone think that Hawthorn would have won a flag without Franklin ? Maybe some of you don't crave a flag, or accept that the possibility is extremely remote. A flag is the only thing that keeps me going. This club has to do all in its power to press for a flag. Its soul will wither and die if a flag isn't the sole objective.

I'm led to believe that with the talent this year it's Scully then daylight. And that's not to say that there won't be other very good players on offer. So Doggo, I don't want pick 2 because it means we won't get Scully. Scully lives his whole life making decisions that are best for his football. He doesn't drink because of his football. Jason McArtney stated that he'd be playing seniors all ready for half the AFL competition he's that good. When he plays for Vic Metro it looks like an AFL player coming back to junior footy. Does anyone remember how Trent Cotchin couldn't handle a tag in his State carnival year ? Scully copped a "heavy tag" and was best for Vic Metro racking up 30 disposals. Paul Connors told me that if we picked up Scully he'd unquestionably captain Melbourne. His former junior coach said that he has a huge appetite for the ball. He plays inside and out. He has good pace and good kicking skills off both feet. He reckons he'll be elite amongst elites. So I say that a player of Scully's talents will make a difference to the MFC.

There's a very good chance that the Saints and Carlton will win flags in the next 2-3 years. Somehow I think the old chestnut of "how many no. 1's have played in premierships" question will quickly disappear. The sytsem is in place for a reason. And Melbourne needs a pp for a reason. The top picks coming through together will make us better. It's not the only thing, nobody says it is, but talented, committed players have success. How many greats of the game don't play in premierships ? There's not many. And the best chance to get stars is with the best picks. Of course it's not the only way, but I'd rather have the odds in our favour and have the best picks possible. A [censored] coach can win a flag with great players, but a great coach won't win a flag with [censored] players.

Thanks 'Hannabal', thats a very well put sentiment.

It could be said that the further back in the draft you go, the more players with less desire to Win at all costs.

[H_T 3,049]

Good post.

I'm looking forward to mo's response to this.

I'm tipping a Robbie Flower side-step.

PS. Well articulated post Hannabal.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I think some people here are More concerned with avoiding the Wooden spoon,,, than being prepared to do what it takes to get the best available to Win a flag.

This way of thinking is what was starting to appear in the mid 60's.

[Doggo 32]

Some posters don't believe that one player will make one iota of difference to the MFC. I couldn't disagree more. Does anyone understand the impact that Chris Judd is having on Carlton ? And I don't just mean on the field. He has changed the way the players train, the way they eat, the way they conduct themselves (except Fev), etc. His impact on the psyche of the group is enormous.

Does anyone think that Hawthorn would have won a flag without Franklin ? Maybe some of you don't crave a flag, or accept that the possibility is extremely remote. A flag is the only thing that keeps me going. This club has to do all in its power to press for a flag. Its soul will wither and die if a flag isn't the sole objective.

I'm led to believe that with the talent this year it's Scully then daylight. And that's not to say that there won't be other very good players on offer. So Doggo, I don't want pick 2 because it means we won't get Scully. Scully lives his whole life making decisions that are best for his football. He doesn't drink because of his football. Jason McArtney stated that he'd be playing seniors all ready for half the AFL competition he's that good. When he plays for Vic Metro it looks like an AFL player coming back to junior footy. Does anyone remember how Trent Cotchin couldn't handle a tag in his State carnival year ? Scully copped a "heavy tag" and was best for Vic Metro racking up 30 disposals. Paul Connors told me that if we picked up Scully he'd unquestionably captain Melbourne. His former junior coach said that he has a huge appetite for the ball. He plays inside and out. He has good pace and good kicking skills off both feet. He reckons he'll be elite amongst elites. So I say that a player of Scully's talents will make a difference to the MFC.

There's a very good chance that the Saints and Carlton will win flags in the next 2-3 years. Somehow I think the old chestnut of "how many no. 1's have played in premierships" question will quickly disappear. The sytsem is in place for a reason. And Melbourne needs a pp for a reason. The top picks coming through together will make us better. It's not the only thing, nobody says it is, but talented, committed players have success. How many greats of the game don't play in premierships ? There's not many. And the best chance to get stars is with the best picks. Of course it's not the only way, but I'd rather have the odds in our favour and have the best picks possible. A [censored] coach can win a flag with great players, but a great coach won't win a flag with [censored] players.

I actually agree with you. I want pick 1 as well, but the point i was trying to make was that, should in the unlikely even that WCE finish below us, it's not the end of the world as we'll still have 2 & 4. Maybe not Scully, but two of the best 4 youngsters in the country. There's a lot of hype around Scully, and from all reports it's completely justified. But he's just one player, and as i said in my earlier post, speculating what could happen in 3-5 years time is pointless really because of the unknown factor of injury, and improvement/drops in form, etc. What if Scully is injured for majority of the next 5 years, and the players that went at 2 or 4 are ripping it up? Drafting and list development is an imprecise art, even when the best player is streets ahead of the next.

But back to my original point, a win against the Eagles. Even if we do beat them, it's extremely unlikely that they will beat us to the spoon, even if winning does help open that possibility up.

Make no mistake, i'm on the same page as you re: Scully, will be a gun, and i want him in red and blue! But there is still light (and hope) without him.

[Melbourne_777 0]

Johnson against his old side, haha! Wonder if he gets a game...