Good Ol' Boys

[Jaded No More 68,915]

Well if he is getting injections each week, you have to begin asking whether he should be playing, especially since this is a season that is long gone. If he doesn't hit his straps over the next few weeks, some 'list management' could see him sent off for surgery or rested or whatever. Better that then aggravating his injury.

I have no idea why they are playing him.

Maybe it's because rest is not something that could fix it? maybe he needs fitness more than anything else? or maybe he is just stubborn?

If I had to guess I'd say he'll have an early start to the off-season.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Why play him?

Because we have to get "games of experience" into our future leaders. Even if Brocky is down on effectiveness in some areas he is still learning heaps of valuable stuff that will help the Dees in our future. He's game is still growing, even from playing with injuries. He gives some hardness out there & helps ease the pressure of others while he's in the clearances.

All this will be beneficial to Brocky & the DEES when he gets back his fitness & a solid preseason in his tank.

[mo64 5,874]

I have continually said that CC and DB have a great plan for the club going forward. It particularly amuses me when I watch dean at his press conference every week field questions from the media with a smirk on his face with aplomb. He knows what he is doing mate, make you mistake about it.

Every club probably thinks that they have a great plan going forward. Do you think that CC didn't believe that he had a great plan at Freo?

DB can smirk all he likes at press conferences. The fact that he read the riot act to the players after the Collingwood game suggests that he's not happy with what we're producing. Results will determine whether he can coach, not body language at press conferences.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

I have no idea why they are playing him.

Maybe it's because rest is not something that could fix it? maybe he needs fitness more than anything else? or maybe he is just stubborn?

If I had to guess I'd say he'll have an early start to the off-season.

I reckon that's a part of it.

[DangerousDemon 3]

Would you like a gold star? A pat on the back?

It doesn't take a genius to use their eyes and work out that Brock's been carrying an injury all season. He can't run at pace and he's struggled to kick more than 35m.

I have no reason to doubt your claim that you have access to inside information - good get re: Moloney - and I thank you for sharing it.

But a long-winded, self-indulgent "I told you so" rant such as the one above endears you to no one. Share information by all means if you want, but don't expect to become a hero for doing so.

I'd actually rather not get the "inside scoop" if it means I'm subjected to the self-righteous twaddle you posted above.

Well the equation for you is simple isn't it mate if you dont like what I have to say then dont read it and more to the point dont comment on it. There are a number of posters on here who do like reading about this type of information. Why should they be moderated by you or anyone else who thinks they have the right of passage to comments on others behalf. I did tell you all about Mcleans injury and people responded with " If that is true" WTF. If you have nothing better to do than post demeaning comments when people attempt to provide useful information, picking out sections of peoples posts for potential critique I think you should join the bowls club or something mate you need something to occupy yourself. You would have no idea who posts on this site Dean Bailey could post under an alias and all you negative based posters would still criticize him. Truth is you dont know so why criticize those who do.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Every club probably thinks that they have a great plan going forward. Do you think that CC didn't believe that he had a great plan at Freo?

DB can smirk all he likes at press conferences. The fact that he read the riot act to the players after the Collingwood game suggests that he's not happy with what we're producing. Results will determine whether he can coach, not body language at press conferences.

The game plan, I think ypour referring to won't really take proper shape until we get a functioning talented team structure out on the ground.

We've seen hints & glimpses of it but through players being below health/fitness levels, some past their youthfull best, some just learning the caper after late starts in the game, & a few who probably aren't quite good enough.

This season isn't about jumping the rungs of the ladder 'cause were just not that good yet.

It's about teaching, learning & developing, & building on the list. This can't be done quicker than people can learn & mature, & we can recruit the talent we need.

You can't short cut this stuff unless your Carlton.

[Deeoldfart 8,033]

.................... DB can smirk all he likes at press conferences. The fact that he read the riot act to the players after the Collingwood game suggests that he's not happy with what we're producing. Results will determine whether he can coach, not body language at press conferences.

Small correction Mo. All it suggests is that he wasn't happy with what we produced against Collingwood. Your post suggests that Bails is not happy with what we are producing generally. You really are a master of generalisation!

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

When you are on the field you are 100%, and this applies to Brock too.

Having said that, I don't think that Brock has used his injuries as an excuse to not put in the effort, or get his hands on the ball. But a lack of pre-season and carrying injuries means that he is physically not able to exert himself anymore than he does, which makes him look slower.

Brock's endeavour, club spirit and on field atttude is not in question. He would not use injuries as an excuse for his performance. Many of his supporters have used it as a catch all excuse for his performance. Brock would be smart enough to realise the foolishness of that.

Firstly Brock is not quick or put another way he motors at the best of time. The injuries may be restricting him somewhat. However you should not blind yourself to the fact that the game has quicken up considerably over the past 3 to 4 years as a consequence of rule changes, umpiring interpretations, coaches use of the interchange and players being drafted. It means that players who were not quick before these evolutions are slower now. Brock has received a couple of lessons about that being pinged a number of times in recent years where his awareness was shown up.

It is therefore very harsh to suggest that we should get rid of him (our best young leader, multiple high-finisher in our B&F, leading clearance winner etc etc) because suddenly he has become too slow, or has lost his ability to kick.

It is harsh and I dont agree with that at all and have never proposed that. However, his plateau performances over the past three years are indeed concerning. And Jaded he has not suddenly become too slow or suddenly lost the ability to kick. Its been evidenced over the past 3 years. You choose not to see it. Either he not golden wonder in the midfield you think he will be (Shock horror) or if he is then he cant get his body right to play gruelling AFL footballer (that is a concern).

For a while now I thought that he must be getting injections in his foot, explaining why perhaps some of his kicks don't connect properly. This is not something he can physically change until he gets better. I remember Green having the same issue a couple of years ago and we all wondered what the hell happened to his ability to kick.

McLean has not lost his talent, and is certainly not out on the ground being lazy and using his injuries as an excuse. He is doing his best within the limitations of his body, which is a pretty brave effort. Then again, what do you expect from a guy who played, and dominated, half a match with a broken foot to help us win?!

This might be the case but you dont know and love to jump on excuses to defend your protected species. His kicking issues also reflect decision making choices he makes and some of those under pressure are questionable

I know that the talent that helped us win a final, at the ripe old age of 21, is still very much there. To judge him based on an injury-ravaged season, while ignoring all other facts, just seems like prematurely announcing time of death. The man can play, we all know that.

I am judging him on the past three years since he did so well in that final. You just look for excuses.

So much for the start of your post!

When you are on the field you are 100%, and this applies to Brock too.

[H_T 3,047]

To those of you bagging Jared Rivers of late, regarding trade bait at the end of this year. In particular Brockstars5.

"In 2012 our backline could be Martin, Frawley, Garland, Strauss, Grimes & Bennell, plus Rivers will still only be 27." - Connolly.

Whilst it doesn't confirm anything, it suggests that Rivers could well be part of the backline picture, come 2012.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Well the equation for you is simple isn't it mate if you dont like what I have to say then dont read it and more to the point dont comment on it. There are a number of posters on here who do like reading about this type of information. Why should they be moderated by you or anyone else who thinks they have the right of passage to comments on others behalf. I did tell you all about Mcleans injury and people responded with " If that is true" WTF. If you have nothing better to do than post demeaning comments when people attempt to provide useful information, picking out sections of peoples posts for potential critique I think you should join the bowls club or something mate you need something to occupy yourself. You would have no idea who posts on this site Dean Bailey could post under an alias and all you negative based posters would still criticize him. Truth is you dont know so why criticize those who do.

Your information was gratefully recieved, but the tone of contempt for the rank & file on here your post carried has upset nearly everyone here. This superiority is what we hate about the old MFC, the stuffiness & smell of moth balls around the clubs perception gives people a virtual dose of hayfever, it gets up our collective noses. This is constructive for your perusal & digestion.

These people are crying out for something to feel involved with about the club, as AFL footy becomes further removed from the people who make the game "the peoples game", don't slap the gift horse in the mouth.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Small correction Mo. All it suggests is that he wasn't happy with what we produced against Collingwood. Your post suggests that Bails is not happy with what we are producing generally. You really are a master of generalisation!

[DangerousDemon 3]

Two things, Genius.

1. Every club has players playing that are carrying/managing injuries.

2. Once you cross that white line I'll judge you accordingly.

Thanks

Oh wow how insightful great work hotshot

[Roost It 1,434]

Dean Bailey could post under an alias and all you negative based posters would still criticize him.

Well Mo certainly would

[Jaded No More 68,915]

I am judging him on the past three years since he did so well in that final. You just look for excuses.

So much for the start of your post!

Rubbish, how can you say that his apparent decline has been evident over the past 3 years?

He played 14 games in 2007 and was second in average tackles per game, and was in the top 10 for disposals.

More amazingly, he played just 14 games last year too and was 3rd in average disposals, 3rd in average tackles and came 2nd in the B&F despite missing half a season.

I didn't see you declare him too slow or a poor kick last year, or the year before that, but it's easy to jump on the bandwagon of popular opinion and just take off, isn't it?

Do I think he can become elite? No I don't. But I truly believe that when fit, and when he has some support around him, he can be a very important part of the team and a very good player to boot.

The issue at the moment is that, having lost TJ and with Bruce no longer worth tagging, McLean is copping all the attention. His lack of pace, particularly in light of his injuries, make it very hard for him to break a tag, and that is probably the biggest reason as to why IMO he can't be an elite player. However, put some quality around him, and watch him do what he does best, which is win the ball in contested situations and feed it out (which he still does very well, injured or not).

And again, when you step over the line you are fair game when it comes to contribution. McLean has not in any way used his injury as an excuse for a reduced workrate, and if other teams want to target him because he is struggling, that's fair game.

But you cannot judge his output this year in terms of pace and disposal, without the context of his injury. He missed two pre-seasons, is obviously in pain and struggling, and that is clearly impacting his pace (which yes, is not great to begin with, but has never stood in his way before) and his kicking.

Up until this year his kicking was always reliable, and his decision making good, but because he is lacking that penetration in his kicking, a lot of the time his ideas just don't come off.

If the club can acknowledge his injuries and lack of fitness, why can't the rest of us?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Rubbish, how can you say that his apparent decline has been evident over the past 3 years?

At least do yourself a favour and follow the argument before call "rubbish"

However, his plateau performances over the past three years are indeed concerning.

In my opinion he has stalled as a player. He has not declined

He played 14 games in 2007 and was second in average tackles per game, and was in the top 10 for disposals.

More amazingly, he played just 14 games last year too and was 3rd in average disposals, 3rd in average tackles and came 2nd in the B&F despite missing half a season.

Woop de do. In a midfield you admit is poor, his placing in the possession puts him at near top of an ordinary barrel of footballers.

I didn't see you declare him too slow or a poor kick last year, or the year before that, but it's easy to jump on the bandwagon of popular opinion and just take off, isn't it?

Check the posts I was making comments last year about this. I made comments observing him over the past three years in response that I was only judged him on this year. I didn't. Now you having a hissy fit that I did not raise the comments last year (I did) and then the year before that. FFS, I measuring it over the past three years. He has struggled to put in a full season and also a pre season in the past three years. That is enough to be a concern even before you look at his performance.

Do I think he can become elite? No I don't. But I truly believe that when fit, and when he has some support around him, he can be a very important part of the team and a very good player to boot.

The issue at the moment is that, having lost TJ and with Bruce no longer worth tagging, McLean is copping all the attention. His lack of pace, particularly in light of his injuries, make it very hard for him to break a tag, and that is probably the biggest reason as to why IMO he can't be an elite player. However, put some quality around him, and watch him do what he does best, which is win the ball in contested situations and feed it out (which he still does very well, injured or not).

The issue is not whether he will be elite. I have never stated that. McLean is a blue collar midfielder who does struggle with tags and has limitations. I dont think he has improved his performance over the past 3 years. Its a pity that his rise as a footballer depends on having better players or stars around. I think he is workmanlike midfielder who will be solid rather than very good. I hope I am wrong on that. For some time he has been struggling and if it is injuries that have restricted him over the past 3 years then I am worried if it extends to a 4th year. I have him as a keep for the 2012 team in the midfield rotation. I do rate him as a top 3 critical to the side like I did at the end of 2006.

And again, when you step over the line you are fair game when it comes to contribution. McLean has not in any way used his injury as an excuse for a reduced workrate, and if other teams want to target him because he is struggling, that's fair game.

But you cannot judge his output this year in terms of pace and disposal, without the context of his injury. He missed two pre-seasons, is obviously in pain and struggling, and that is clearly impacting his pace (which yes, is not great to begin with, but has never stood in his way before) and his kicking.

I have judged over three years not this year. You are like a scratched record of excuses and apologies. We have addressed that issue so rattle on about it

Up until this year his kicking was always reliable, and his decision making good, but because he is lacking that penetration in his kicking, a lot of the time his ideas just don't come off.

So its bad decision making to undertake disposal that you cant do. Thats my point. Aaargh!

His kicking issues also reflect decision making choices he makes and some of those under pressure are questionable

If the club can acknowledge his injuries and lack of fitness, why can't the rest of us?

The Club like Brock do not use the injuries as a crutch for refusing to see the obvious. You have said that yourself

I have acknowledged the injuries aspect. But I follow your dictum...

He is absolutely right.

When you are on the field you are 100%, and this applies to Brock too.

The rest is just contradiction. Ho Hum!!

[dee-luded 2,959]

Well Mo certainly would

Mo might be Bailey.

Roost it could be Healey.

OGDingo ould be Connolls.????????

????I'm sure that some of them post here under some alias time to time. Good fun.

[Jaded No More 68,915]

Interesting that according to you, the definition of plateauing involves improving in all critical aspects of your game from one season to the next.

McLean's averages in 2008 were better than in 2007, despite playing the same number of games. Improvement or not?

McLean's B&F position in 2008 was much better than in 2007, despite playing the same number of games. Improvement or not?

Is it a worry that he has been injured for 3 years and can't put a pre-season together? of course it is.

Is it a worry that McLean cannot accept his body's limitations, trying to do too much when he knows he physically cant? yes it is.

What is so obvious about McLean that I have not acknowledged? His pace is poor, but didn't stop him from being a very good player in 05, 06, 07 and 08. Agreed?

His disposal has been more than good in the past 4 seasons as well. Agreed?

His injuries are making him slower, limiting his ability to break a tackle, and impacting his kicking skills. Agreed?

So when we take all that on board, I think that we both agree that he is a very important part of the team going forward. The only difference here is that I think he can be a very good player, while you think he'll just be a workhorse. Nothing wrong with a difference of opinion, and I can understand why you don't rate him higher.

But don't tell me he is plateauing, when his stats prove otherwise, and when we both agree that injuries are hampering his physical abilities.

He was well on his way to being our best player last year, and in context, probably was. Injuries once again killed any momentum he had. Such a shame!

[H_T 3,047]

Interesting that according to you, the definition of plateauing involves improving in all critical aspects of your game from one season to the next.

McLean's averages in 2008 were better than in 2007, despite playing the same number of games. Improvement or not? Yes

McLean's B&F position in 2008 was much better than in 2007, despite playing the same number of games. Improvement or not? Yes

Is it a worry that he has been injured for 3 years and can't put a pre-season together? of course it is. Yes

Is it a worry that McLean cannot accept his body's limitations, trying to do too much when he knows he physically cant? yes it is. Maybe he is trying to push his body to a higher limit, but his body is failing him. I don't have an answer for that. Probably only Brock and the fitness staff and coach know that one

What is so obvious about McLean that I have not acknowledged? His pace is poor, but didn't stop him from being a very good player in 05, 06, 07 and 08. Agreed? Yes. - Maybe a good to very good player.

His disposal has been more than good in the past 4 seasons as well. Agreed? IMO his disposal if anything has been just ok this season. Not as good as last years

His injuries are making him slower, limiting his ability to break a tackle, and impacting his kicking skills. Agreed? It appears that way. If he's body isn't right and he's getting himself up because of stubbornness and the want to play and his disposal suffers further, maybe they should rest him.

So when we take all that on board, I think that we both agree that he is a very important part of the team going forward. The only difference here is that I think he can be a very good player, while you think he'll just be a workhorse. Nothing wrong with a difference of opinion, and I can understand why you don't rate him higher.

But don't tell me he is plateauing, when his stats prove otherwise, and when we both agree that injuries are hampering his physical abilities.

He was well on his way to being our best player last year, and in context, probably was. Injuries once again killed any momentum he had. Such a shame!

How does Brocks stats compare to last year Jaded? Have they improved on 2008?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Interesting that according to you, the definition of plateauing involves improving in all critical aspects of your game from one season to the next.

You have done it again. First you wrongly accuse me of saying he has declined when I said "plateaud". Now you are saying " plateaud" means improving in all critical aspect of your game"

You are not normally that dumb Jaded but you are plumbing low.

This is plateaud Jaded

---------------------------. A flat line

From dictionary.com

"to reach a state or level of little or no growth or decline, esp. to stop increasing or progressing; remain at a stable level of achievement; level off: After a period of uninterrupted growth, sales began to plateau. "

McLean's averages in 2008 were better than in 2007, despite playing the same number of games. Improvement or not?

McLean's B&F position in 2008 was much better than in 2007, despite playing the same number of games. Improvement or not?

He had little impact in a number of matches last year and at times looked terrible in 2008. I dont have to rely on statistics to tell me why I can easily observe.

And B&F is a relative measure not an absolute. We were a far worse team in 2008 than 2007 but McLean could still have plateaud and improve his position. It does not indicate improvement at all.

Is it a worry that McLean cannot accept his body's limitations, trying to do too much when he knows he physically cant? yes it is.

Mclean is no different to any other player who is trying hard. It does not mitigate the outcome.

What is so obvious about McLean that I have not acknowledged?

You make the big statement about be accountable when you cross the line then you go into an endless dribble of excuses why Brock cant be accountable for it. Its laughable really

So when we take all that on board, I think that we both agree that he is a very important part of the team going forward.

Its rubbish Jaded. At the end of 2006 he was on the cusp of making the next step and influencing games of football. I thought he could be the No 1 midfielder for us. He has not made that step and has base lined (sorry Jaded plateaud is too harder concept for some). In that time the game has got more demanding and is struggling with it and is still waiting to take that next step. I think he still needs to take the next step. I think he is part of the midfield rotation in 2012 but he is not the general in the midfield. That makes him necessary rather than very important.

The only difference here is that I think he can be a very good player, while you think he'll just be a workhorse. Nothing wrong with that.

You hope he will be a very good player resting partially on the fact we get better players in the midfield. Right. So there is nothing wrong with my belief that he will be a blue collar solid midfielder but....

But don't tell me he is plateauing, when his stats prove otherwise, and when we both agree that injuries are hampering his physical abilities.

You dont understand what plateauing is and your statistics dont camouflaged we you just dont want to see. And in this case its a lot.

Its also funny that you challenge Dappa Dan on his love of PJ. I dont agree with DD's view before you carry on about that.

Dappa Dan of PJ is no different to your of Brock. Its both based on a self blinded view that suits a purpose.

[Jaded No More 68,915]

How does Brocks stats compare to last year Jaded? Have they improved on 2008?

Well I can't find any 2008 clearance stats or first possession stats (both of which he leads this year), but overall game averages:

23.5 disposals in 2009 compared to 23.6 in 2008

4 marks in 2009 compared to 4.1 in 2008

4.9 tackles in 2009 compared to 3.9 in 2008

He seems to be getting his hands on the ball just as much, and his clearance stats this year would be the same if not better than last I would guess (maybe someone has a subscription to Pro-Stats and can find that out). The real issue this year is obviously how he uses the ball. Given he lacks fitness, he tires more and more as the game wears on (when normally endurance is his strength), which no doubt impacts his kicking ability. Some of his kicks also lack penetration this year and seem to not connect properly. He has certainly never been a bad user of the ball in the past, but this year that aspect of his game has been a problem.

In terms of pace, when he has the support of good outside finishers around him, the need for him to run and carry will be significantly reduced. His main role will be to get first hands on the ball and feed it out to someone like Blease or Strauss or Grimes or Morton, who have the pace to burn. And hopefully, with pre-season training and speed training under his belt, he might be able to actually improve some of his speed as well. I think Jones has done well this year in that respect.

[MikeyJ 60]

Well the equation for you is simple isn't it mate if you dont like what I have to say then dont read it and more to the point dont comment on it. There are a number of posters on here who do like reading about this type of information. Why should they be moderated by you or anyone else who thinks they have the right of passage to comments on others behalf. I did tell you all about Mcleans injury and people responded with " If that is true" WTF. If you have nothing better to do than post demeaning comments when people attempt to provide useful information, picking out sections of peoples posts for potential critique I think you should join the bowls club or something mate you need something to occupy yourself. You would have no idea who posts on this site Dean Bailey could post under an alias and all you negative based posters would still criticize him. Truth is you dont know so why criticize those who do.

I thanked you for your information, as have many others. People who provide snippets of inside information are one of the main reasons these sites thrive. I hope you continue to post such info when you are able.

And I understand very clearly why people refuse to reveal their sources. I'm all for them keeping confidences. I've never questioned a poster's sources when it is clear their information is on the money, or close to it.

However, I criticised you for being an obnoxious prat. You're still being an obnoxious prat and I don't know why. Do yourself and everyone else a favour and drop it.

[Jaded No More 68,915]

You have done it again. First you wrongly accuse me of saying he has declined when I said "plateaud". Now you are saying " plateaud" means improving in all critical aspect of your game"

So given that he has improved his output in 2008 coming off no pre-season and once again being injured, and when we were a much worse side than in 2007 (and in 2006 when we made finals and he had the support of a much stronger midfield around him), that to you is little to no improvement (i.e.- plateauing)?

Each to their own I guess

We can both put forward a point of view, I back mine up with stats to show you that he has not declined, and in fact has improved (as much as someone can improve playing half seasons and having no pre-season), but still I am apparently just a blind supporter of McLean. Does that make you a McLean basher then?

And again, he hasn't taken that next step to elevate him to the level that I had hoped he'll reach, but I guess I'm not allowed to mention that issue of having just 28 games in two seasons and spending the past two summers in rehab... oops no, that makes me a blind McLean lover, so I better not.

By the way, I enjoy disagreeing with you, but when you unsuccessfully try to insult me by calling me dumb, it really makes me wonder why I bother. Maybe I should follow your lead and find a warm place on the fence.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

So given that he has improved his output in 2008 coming off no pre-season and once again being injured, and when we were a much worse side than in 2007 (and in 2006 when we made finals and he had the support of a much stronger midfield around him), that to you is little to no improvement (i.e.- plateauing)?

Each to their own I guess

Even you not that ____ to just base your conclusion on the accumulation of stats. IMO he does not impact enough games. He does not hurt oppositions with the ball. Number of kicks, marks etc are the folly of those who cannot follow the game elsewhere.

And again, he hasn't taken that next step to elevate him to the level that I had hoped he'll reach, but I guess I'm not allowed to mention that issue of having just 28 games in two seasons and spending the past two summers in rehab... oops no, that makes me a blind McLean lover, so I better not.

But you have just convinced yourself he has improved. On one hand your saying he has improved but then again he hasn't because of injuries, poor midfield, climate change etc. Worst case of buttering both sides of the bread Jaded even for you.

By the way, I enjoy disagreeing with you, but when you unsuccessfully try to insult me by calling me dumb, it really makes me wonder why I bother. Maybe I should follow your lead and find a warm place on the fence.

It was not not meant to be an insult. Just an observation. Your bizarre efforts to misrepresent my position on McLean was dumb Jaded. And you did it twice. Even dumber. On that basis you could do worse than sit on a fence. And you are sounding more like Freak. Maybe thats the comparison. Thanks for that insight.

[Jaded No More 68,915]

It was not not meant to be an insult. Just an observation.

While I am apparently dumb, I'm smart enough to know the difference between an observation and an insult.

Unlucky for you, I don't buy into the bully demeanor that you seem to enjoy projecting around here, as if it actually intimidate anyone.

Was nice while it lasted, but to be honest I really really don't need you, of all people, to validate my opinion, just as you don't need me to prop you up on that fence of yours.

I guess we'll go on agreeing to disagree, and let Brock be the decider.

Regards,

Brock Lover

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

While I am apparently dumb, I'm smart enough to know the difference between an observation and an insult.

Bravo. I guess the word plateau was a difficult one wasn't it.

I guess your melodramatic posts are not a form of bullying in itself particularly when you seek to continually misrepresent the other persons point of view as your leading argument. Choice.