Our Rucks

[Nasher 33,133]

Maybe this is the perfect time to test a tactic I have thought about only briefly -- 4 midfielders at the bounce.

It goes against the traditional nature of the game and probably wouldn't work, but it'd be interesting to see.

- LET the opposition ruckman win the tap -- make him beat you by using & placing the ball exceptionally well.

- 3 midfielders play defensively man on man at the bounce to prevent the opposition getting a run on

- back the ONE free midfielder to win the ball most times and burst away with the clearance AND beat the opposing ruckman around the ground.

We don't have the midfield for it at the moment, but I can imagine leaving Davey as the free man and then in general play matching Cale Morton against the ruckman - good engine and has height.

I doubt this would work too well, but I'd love to see Bails innovate and try something new if we can't field a decent ruck setup.

Wouldn't it be great to see something this radical in today's game? I'd just prefer to see another club make this desperate move, risking embarrassment.

I thought about that once or twice too. Don't even bother contesting the ruck situation. However, I imagine you'd still have to 'nominate' a ruckman to line up in the circle, and he'd still not be allowed to just 'grab' the ball out of the ruck (or risk instant holding the ball if he did), making it a very risky proposition for using him. There'd also be nothing to stop the opposition ruckman from just punching the cover off the ball and knocking it forward 50 metres.

Entertaining notion at first, but totally impractical.

[Sir Why You Little 34,685]

This game just might sort out a few long term contracts. Who really wants to play.

At the moment we Like Fremantle expect to lose on the road. This must change drastically before any respect can be gained in the Football world.

[Jaded No More 58,584]

Things could be worse, we could be going into a final at Subiaco, against the tallest human being on the planet, with no second ruck option except one N.Smith

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

How many times in those 7 years has he rucked alone, or as the #1 ruck? I'd say once, maybe twice? Now i know your initial response will be "so what does that tell you?" in the negative, condescending prose you write so well in. My answer would simply be "that he's untried as a full-time ruckman".

FWIW I never rated Ryder as a ruckman until seeing him take the job on alone on Anzac day. In all his seasons at Essendon, playing many different roles, including pinch-hitting in the ruck, i never once saw him do anything that suggested to me that he would be capable of playing as a full-time ruckman. Too short, not strongly built enough, lacking physicalityand intensity, etc. However, when Hille went down, the extra responsibility of having to do the majority of the ruckwork on his own lifted him to a level i'd never before previously seen. He could easily have sank and no-one would really have thought anything of it. But he swam. This is what we need to do with Johnson while our other ruck options are not available. All it takes is one exceptional game...

I'm not saying PJ is Paddy Ryder, but they are similar types, and the situation is also similar. These next couple of weeks are huge in the context of PJ's career. It's sink or swim for him now. You're right (although a bit harsh in your assesment) that he has spent more of his career sinking than swimming, but i think you miss the point.

What monoccular is really saying is after this 'nightmare' of having no ruckman is over, we'll definitely know if PJ will be 'sinking' or 'swimming'. You may have made your mind up already, but who's to say your opinion is 'more correct' than his, or mine, or anyone elses? I think he'll come good, as do a few others on here. You don't. Great. Let's just wait and see.

Your complete lack of support for PJ is getting really old. He's in the side mate, wish him the best and get on with it. (God, i'm starting to sound like bobby mckenzie LOL ) If he doesn't make it, fine, you can 'tell us so' all you like, but if he does, be prepared for a slice of humble pie being forced down your throat .

PJ is not similar to Paddy Ryder. Ryder is a player has held down a KPB role and is already an established player. Ryder took the opportunity and work his clacker off and threw himself around physical against an established by marshmallow like ruckman in Fraser.

PJ has not nailed any position as his own and in particular rucking he has been dead useless. Its interesting that when he was the experienced ruck against Fraser, he was absolutely pantsed and when Fraser went forward and hurt MFC further PJ let him. Its an interesting comparison.

The gauntlet has been thrown down to PJ all year since Jamar went injured. He clearly hasn't taken the bait.

Its not a matter of not supporting a player it recognising where they are at. The lack of success has bred an attitude of eulogiseing very ordinary footballers in this Club and try to paint them as something they are not.

I think PJ has given more than enough evidence about his capabilities. Its just that many posters get carried away with one off individual feats of bravery or a tackle here or there and use it as a cover all for a footballer that cannot impact a game and do so regularly. He will have his work cut out on Cox and what will be asked of him will be what has been asked of him all year and has not delivered. I hope he does well I really do. MFC are screaming for a good bigman.

And if plays even a mediocre game it will be enough for his steadfast well wishers to claim he is a great asset/ruckman while blissfully ignoring all before.

C'est la vie.

[Sir Why You Little 34,685]

P.J's only chance is that he puts in a "Blinder" against his old club.

But sorry i just don't think it's gonna happen. Paul Johnson would not get a game at any other AFL club. Cruel i know but fair.

[Guest JACKtheRIPPER]

PJ is not similar to Paddy Ryder. Ryder is a player has held down a KPB role and is already an established player. Ryder took the opportunity and work his clacker off and threw himself around physical against an established by marshmallow like ruckman in Fraser.

PJ has not nailed any position as his own and in particular rucking he has been dead useless. Its interesting that when he was the experienced ruck against Fraser, he was absolutely pantsed and when Fraser went forward and hurt MFC further PJ let him. Its an interesting comparison.

The gauntlet has been thrown down to PJ all year since Jamar went injured. He clearly hasn't taken the bait.

Its not a matter of not supporting a player it recognising where they are at. The lack of success has bred an attitude of eulogiseing very ordinary footballers in this Club and try to paint them as something they are not.

I think PJ has given more than enough evidence about his capabilities. Its just that many posters get carried away with one off individual feats of bravery or a tackle here or there and use it as a cover all for a footballer that cannot impact a game and do so regularly. He will have his work cut out on Cox and what will be asked of him will be what has been asked of him all year and has not delivered. I hope he does well I really do. MFC are screaming for a good bigman.

And if plays even a mediocre game it will be enough for his steadfast well wishers to claim he is a great asset/ruckman while blissfully ignoring all before.

C'est la vie.

will that be 1 bottle of wine or 2 champ.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

P.J's only chance is that he puts in a "Blinder" against his old club.

But sorry i just don't think it's gonna happen. Paul Johnson would not get a game at any other AFL club. Cruel i know but fair.

I think he will need to play well all year and above the level he has given thus far.

With Meesen going down with a potential LT injury then I think some of the dynamics have changed. PJ once more has been given the opportunity of a lifetime for the rest of 2009.

[Sir Why You Little 34,685]

I think he will need to play well all year and above the level he has given thus far.

With Meesen going down with a potential LT injury then I think some of the dynamics have changed. PJ once more has been given the opportunity of a lifetime for the rest of 2009.

Absolutely & i wish him the Best, but to those who think we are going to see a Paddy Ryder scenario i doubt it.

All players on our list have this year to prove themselves. Next year the Heat is on for real.

[1858 223]

I think PJ has given more than enough evidence about his capabilities. Its just that many posters get carried away with one off individual feats of bravery or a tackle here or there and use it as a cover all for a footballer that cannot impact a game and do so regularly. He will have his work cut out on Cox and what will be asked of him will be what has been asked of him all year and has not delivered. I hope he does well I really do.

Another correct assessment.

The reality is that these occurences where PJ roams around doing a few things here or there can easily be performed by any other player. First and foremost PJ is in the team as a 2nd tall or ruck and we quite simply have not received the benefits from him that a tall player should deliver. In effect PJ has no niche or MO when he runs out on the field and it hurts us severely because he is taking up the place of a tall player who should be giving us the benefits of a tall player. PJ rarely takes a pack mark, his hitouts are poor, he doesn't use the other players effectively the way a tall player should and he plays heavy ie doesn't have an adequate leap or fluent movement apart from the odd straight line run.

I don't know whether it is poor coaching/guidance or if PJ is not playing smart football or if we just don't have enough system but PJ is in situations beyond his ability or role too often and he just seems to do his own thing. A tryer no doubt but we have other players who can do what he does if he isn't offering anything on top as a handy tall.

MFC are screaming for a good bigman.

PJ will never be a good bigman for the simple fact that he doesn't play as a bigman. He is a big man that now and again plays a half decent game as a utility with rare occurences of putting his height to actual use/advantage.

[45HG 1,539]

There is another option, is our mid field rove to the opporstion rucks!

Game, Set and Match.

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,321]

Is Jeff White available this weekend?

Oh that's right we all wanted him out of the side even though we all knew we had the worst ruck division in the AFL

[H_T 2,941]

I was checking stats to see if he had any hitouts, which he didn't but I was surprised to find the following stats on Stef: 2nd Contested Marks 3rd 1%ers 3rd in Percentage of Possessions that are contested 2nd in disposal efficiency 6th goal assists

Thanks for the interesting stats breakdown on Stef. 2nd in contested marks is interesting. Somewhat a quiet achiever.

[H_T 2,941]

Agree, the kid can't put a step wrong at the moment. Even if he doesn't win a 50/50 ball, you know he's trying his guts out. I'm growing fonder of him game by game.

I am really taken back at just how quick he is over the ground.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Seven years in AFL and you have not worked it out? Interesting.

No. Not really.

With Meesen going down with a potential LT injury then I think some of the dynamics have changed. PJ once more has been given the opportunity of a lifetime for the rest of 2009.

So we've lost 2 of our 3 listed ruckmen (Spencer was a rookie before this season), and the fact PJ is only now considered our first ruck surprises people? PJ was never in the side as a starting ruckman. Everyone knows this. His next few games will reflect this...

The important fact here is that, yes, he's had his few heroic passages, maybe even a stunning quarter or two. The reason he hasn;t put it together more than this is because up until recently he's never been given the opportunity to play in one position for whole games, or whole weeks. Miller, everyone's favourite at the moment (except Freaks), went through EXACTLY the same thing for years there. It's no different with PJ, I reckon.

What's more interesting is that we went into the season knowing that if we lost 2 ruckmen to injury (which we have now) we have one more listed and one more rookie. I don't knwo why everyone's so devastated? Obviously I feel for the big Meese, and that's potentially tragic for him, but in terms of the list as it is, this was a setback we had a contingency for.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the next few weeks, seeing what a Meesen/Spencer/Jamar free PJ can do. Unlike some of the depressing grandparents roaming demonland, I'm quite pumped for him.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Is Jeff White available this weekend?

Oh that's right we all wanted him out of the side even though we all knew we had the worst ruck division in the AFL

He would be ranked No 5 in our ordinary ruck line up. His performances in his final year make Josh Fraser look like Glenn Archer.

You clearly have been away from the game for a long time.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

No. Not really.

I know.

So we've lost 2 of our 3 listed ruckmen (Spencer was a rookie before this season), and the fact PJ is only now considered our first ruck surprises people? PJ was never in the side as a starting ruckman. Everyone knows this. His next few games will reflect this...

But he is one of the best 2nd rucks in the AFL. What is PJ in the side for and what position has he shown even the smallest capability of nailing?

The important fact here is that, yes, he's had his few heroic passages, maybe even a stunning quarter or two. The reason he hasn;t put it together more than this is because up until recently he's never been given the opportunity to play in one position for whole games, or whole weeks. Miller, everyone's favourite at the moment (except Freaks), went through EXACTLY the same thing for years there. It's no different with PJ, I reckon.

Seven years and around 60 games and we dont know what he can do. We certainly know he cant ruck. Miller is a limited footballer but provides a contest and from time to time does make an impact in a game. His work ethic and attack on the contest cant be challenged. But Miller is benchwarming for better options and his future is not assured.

What's more interesting is that we went into the season knowing that if we lost 2 ruckmen to injury (which we have now) we have one more listed and one more rookie. I don't knwo why everyone's so devastated? Obviously I feel for the big Meese, and that's potentially tragic for him, but in terms of the list as it is, this was a setback we had a contingency for.

We went into the season knowing that we had a problem in the big man stakes even with all our rucks fit. Its makes it more distressing when we are left with our No 4 ruck option who is not a ruck against the best ruck in the AFL.

Our list has had no contingency for this outcome and its not easily fixed.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the next few weeks, seeing what a Meesen/Spencer/Jamar free PJ can do. Unlike some of the depressing grandparents roaming demonland, I'm quite pumped for him.

Its amazing that you have been in heavy support for a player who you dont know what he can do and you dont believe he can ruck. I am equally pumped for you.

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,321]

He would be ranked No 5 in our ordinary ruck line up. His performances in his final year make Josh Fraser look like Glenn Archer.

You clearly have been away from the game for a long time.

I watch our games every week mate.

I'm not saying White would be our best ruckman (having said that, he'd be 150% better than PJ and Spencer), but look at the situation we're in. We don't have any ruck depth. We're fielding one NQR ruckman this weekend and that's it.

Bad luck or poor list management?

[beelzebub 22,256]

Poor list management.

is it ??

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,321]

is it ??

Good point

Who actually cares. Everytime I get worked up about injuries and team selections, it just makes us 1 game closer to Scully and Butcher.

[beelzebub 22,256]

in all seriousness we are now only really trying to fumble our way through the year in regard of rucking.

Spencer will get chances and expect him to really start showing some advances in the latter half of season.

We will simply have to shark the opposition and apply pressure to counter the lack of ruck depth.

I think PJ has disappointed many...myself included but he will at least provide a contest if not competition.

I sense Bailey is looking to Meesen and Spencer as our future now with another to be recruited and developed. If we were dead lucky maybe another rucking reject/frustrated may appear in the nutty "silly " week come seasons end.

Collingwood played quite successfully for many seasons without decent rucking ...we can do this to . Just need to rejig the plan a little.

[Melbourne_777 0]

Seven years in AFL and you have not worked it out? Interesting.

Maybe if you had, had 3 shoulder reconstructions, broken leg, stress fracture in your foot, ankle spurs, broken collorbone...you would have found the last 7 years a bit hard...BUT he hasn't been in AFL 7 years, it's 6...we are not through season 09 and he deubted in 2003....

[dee-luded 2,958]

Is Jeff White available this weekend?

Oh that's right we all wanted him out of the side even though we all knew we had the worst ruck division in the AFL

I wouldn't want him back if he was.

[The Jack of Grimes 0]

I am really taken back at just how quick he is over the ground.

Agree... he's deceptively fast for his height. Ruck or not think he's a very versatile player. Same mold as Paul Johnson, difference being PJ doesn't seem to assert himself in the same manner.

[Doggo 32]

Maybe if you had had 3 shoulder reconstructions, broken leg, stress fracture in your foot, ankle spurs, broken collorbone...you would have found the last 7 years a bit hard...BUT he hasn't been in AFL 7 years, it's 6...we are not through season 09 and he deubted in 2003....

Correct. Add to that hand and hip injuries from last season.

It's PJ's 50th match this weekend, and just off the top of my head, thats from around a possible 130 games. That's a horrible run with injuries. The only year i can remember him being able to play the majority of 22 games was in 2005, when he won the Liston at Sandy. Even the last two seasons he has missed 6 weeks both years.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the next few weeks, seeing what a Meesen/Spencer/Jamar free PJ can do. Unlike some of the depressing grandparents roaming demonland, I'm quite pumped for him.

I'm with you on this Dappa. It's no secret my bias towards PJ, as i've followed his career pretty much from juniors to now. I hope he plays an absolute blinder this week, in his 50th, and that his next however many weeks playing as the sole ruckman he returns to some good form. Last week was solid, lets hope he can build on that.

Good luck to the lad. RR is right in that he has the opportunity of a lifetime being the only fit ruckman (ironically) on our list. He needs to lift. I believe he can.

[olgreydingo 51]

I believe that Jeff White was told during the season his time was up at MFC last year early in the season. In the final weeks of 2008 season, he was asked if he would like to have a one year contract. He declined. The mood by some senior players and the coaching staff was very poor and the players lost respect, especially the ones who are not there. JW is now playing in QLD.

I wonder what mite have been?