Fat Tony's Best 22

[Fat Tony 5,262]

B Garland Martin Whelan

HB Bruce Rivers Bartram

C Wheatley McLean Green

HF Buckley Miller Davey

F Bate Robertson Sylvia

Fol Johnson Dunn McDonald

Int Jones Morton Warnock Watts

Emg Moloney Maric Wonaeamirri

Commentary

Garland – Ideally I would like to see Garland played as mostly as a third tall defender this season and I think he needs to develop physically if we want him to take the power forwards in the future. Garland also adds great flexibility to our defence as he is quick enough to run with small forwards. While many would like to see him tried up forward I would like to see him settle in defence to build his confidence at AFL level.

Martin – I have been impressed with Martin’s athleticism, skill and courage to play in front. I would like to see him start on the opposition’s tallest forward, but as I have not picked Jamar in my 22 I think he also should be used to relieve Johnson in the ruck. While Martin may not have the size and leap of most ruckman, I think he probably has the strength to match them. Furthermore, he might be able to become a weapon around the ground as his running ability and athleticism is superior to that of most ruckmen. This may not be possible and will depend on his matchup at full back.

Whelan – Still our best small defender and one of the key leaders of the backline. Preferably he should be played on the slower of the small forwards (with Bartram taking the other).

Bruce – His endurance makes him ideal for a half back role as he is able to act as a stopper and a counter attacker. His games on Steve Johnson last year were both excellent and are evidence of how I would like him to play. He is well suited to a half back role as most teams are now pushing forwards up the ground into the midfield. Bruce would provide great versatility to the defence.

Rivers – When fit Rivers is still our best key defender and I think he should generally be used on the opposition’s second best key forward and preferably not at full back. I have never subscribed to the theory that he is not big enough for the key forwards. Most supporters believe he is our best defender and he has always played on the key forwards. Moreover, I don’t think he is quick enough for many of the third or forth tallest forwards of most sides. (i.e. Brett Burton, Steve Johnson types)

Bartram – While his disposal is definitely a liability I think his pace, accountability, discipline and tenacity are very important ingredients. He is probably our best defensive stopper and all AFL teams have a number of onballers/small forwards that we need to put the brakes on.

Wheatley – One of our best users of the ball, Wheatley is ideally suited to the wing. Many other posters have excluded him from their teams but he was consistently one of our better players last year and our highest total kick getter. He is also well disciplined and accountable.

McLean – One of our best ball winners and probably our first player tagged. He also has very good endurance and is good at getting boot to ball in the stoppages. Sometimes he needs to make decisions quicker when he has the ball as he too often gets run down from behind. Certainly future captaincy material, I would like McLean to show a bit more discipline on and off the field.

Green – Green is a very courageous and significantly underrated player by opposition supporters. Green can be used all over the ground and I would use him by Bailey as a stop gap solution depending on the opposition. (i.e. There will be times when he should be used as a loose man in defence and times when he should play at full forward.)

Buckley – Although his disposal and decision making let him down at times, I see great value in Buckley’s athleticism and ability to break lines. He needs to become more accountable and I would like him to lay more tackles given his speed (only 1.4 per match in 2008). I also think he should be used in the centre square more often, as I think acceleration and size are underrated qualities when considering in stoppage winning ability. (I think we would be better off with Buckley in the centre stoppages than either Jones or Moloney.) While I have picked him on the forward line I see Buckley playing really as an extra midfielder.

Miller – One of our most improved players and best leaders, Miller needs to continue to improve. I was not really a Miller fan before 2008, but 26 goals was a reasonable return considering the limited opportunities and poor delivery we gave him. I think he played much better when Neitz retired and he felt was able to push closer to goal. He and Robertson should be played as our only forwards always staying in the attacking half.

Davey – I see Davey’s best position either on the wing or as a forward pushing into the midfield. I would not like to see our best match winner sitting in the forward pocket starving for opportunities.

Bate – While I think Bate is in our best 22 I think he needs to keep improving to stay there. While he should be versatile given his size and athleticism, I really only see him as a one position player (lead up forward). He is not really quick enough to play in the backline or as a defensive midfielder and not skilled enough or good enough at getting the ball to play as an offensive midfielder. I would actually like to see him slim down a bit and get a touch quicker. While many posters believe Bate has good ‘sticky’ hands I am not convinced of this. In 2008 he averaged only 6 marks a game and with only 6 contested marks for the season. While I think he would be best utilised in a lead up centre half forward role, Bate should be encouraged to get up the ground and push into the midfield and defence. This would help keep our forward line open.

Robertson – Hopefully Robertson can recover as I think Robertson and Miller are easily our best key forward options. I would give them both lots of space in the forward 50, with Robertson played mostly out of the square and with Miller higher up the ground.

Sylvia – I really see Sylvia’s best position being the forward pocket. He does not have the engine and is not really good enough at reading the play to become a permanent midfielder. Like Bate, he should be encouraged to push up the ground into the midfield and defence on occasion, although I would like him to play deeper than in most cases. Given he has had a good preseason so far I see this as a really important year for Sylvia

Johnson – While many supporters lament at Johnson’s ruckwork, I am someone who believes this aspect of the game is increasingly irrelevant for the following reasons: 1) Stoppages around the ground now attract masses of players reducing the effectiveness of hit outs; 2) Very few goals are scored directly from the centre bounce. Even so, this can be somewhat combated by sending an extra man in defence at the centre bounce if need be; 3) With four boundary umpires the rucks are getting to the boundary throw in contest less, so I think athleticism in the ruck is now even more important than it was; 4) Moreover, using the third man up at stoppages has become quite popular (particularly with Bailey) which further decreases the need for a good tap ruckman. While it would be nice to have a ruckman like Sandilands or Cox, I think it is important for us to think outside the square and optimise what we have. Another potential option with the ruck would be to use Johnson for the centre bounces and then Martin around the ground (with Johnson going forward). We should experiment with various scenarios before going back to using Jamar, because I don’t think he is capable of taking us to a premiership.

Dunn – I think Dunn showed a bit as a tagger through the middle of last year and I think it is worth persisting. He is tall, athletic with good endurance and well skilled yet many supporters do not think he has a future. While he does not win enough of the ball around the ground, we really should look at his performances on a net possession basis. One thing I think he should be instructed not to do is push the limits of the umpire too early in the game (as he tends to give away too many free kicks).

McDonald – I would like to see McDonald also used in a run with role in the midfield. While many will say I am too negative with two defensive midfielders, I think that the good teams will kill us if we are not accountable at the stoppages.

Jones – I think Jones is our next best midfielder and is definitely in our best 22. He wins a spot over Moloney because I think he is slightly cleaner and has better decision making skills. His role in the midfield rotation will depend on who he is on and he should be able to be used as a tagger if he replaces Dunn, McDonald or Bartram (if he is on a midfielder). I would generally prefer to see midfielders like McLean, McDonald, Dunn and Buckley over Jones or Moloney at the centre bounce.

Morton – Cale should be used in the midfield rotation. I do not think he has the capability to do a defensive job at this stage in his career, so he really needs to be played as an attacking midfielder. I see him developing into a similar player as Cameron Bruce.

Warnock – It was a difficult decision to leave him out of the back six. While he may be a better player than Martin at this stage, I think Martin has greater upside for us. (Although maybe he should be at full back and Martin used as a second ruckman.) I am firm that Rivers best position is generally on the second best tall forward and I think Garland should be played on the third tall at this stage of his career. It therefore means that only one of Martin or Warnock really fits into the back six. Of all our key defenders, I see Warnock as the most likely to be able to go to the forward line in 2009. As such he would be quite a versatile player to have on the bench. Also it would also be good to have the ability to give Rivers a rest from time to time given his recent injuries.

Watts – While it is difficult to make a judgement on whether Watts is in our best 22 without seeing too much of him I would expect him to play AFL next year given his reported speed, endurance and skill. And after all, the number one pick generally comes in to AFL footy and makes some impact in the first year. I think he could fit into the midfield rotation (on a wing) or as a lead up forward. Given the lack of competition for key forward spots I think he will probably play more than not next year.

Moloney –Moloney was pretty stiff to miss out on my best 22, but I think a midfield including McLean, Jones and Moloney might be a bit too slow. I don’t think he is quick enough to play in defence. Moreover, it could be argued that we would be better playing Moloney than Morton if we were in premiership contention. Generally I think he needs to be told to look to take the shorter option more often when kicking, particularly when under pressure and when going inside 50. Hopefully he can get fit and prove to be a good AFL footballer.

Maric – While probably not in our best 22 yet I think he has great potential and I can see him developing into a Matty Lappin type with the ability to play all over the ground. Obviously he needs to get much bigger and stronger.

Wonaeamirri – Wonaeamirri is another who would be close to being in our best side. I see him really only as a forward, although he has played in defence in the SANFL. I am not sure he would be quick enough/read the play well enough to play in defence in the AFL. I would say Sylvia and Bate are only just ahead of him at the moment.

Jamar – Leaving out our best tap ruckman is probably my most controversial decision in my 22. I think the game has gone past players of his type. In 2008, which was probably his best year, he averaged only 8 disposals and 18 hit outs a game. I would like to see us experiment in the ruck.

Newton – I am amazed how much support he gets from supporters given his lack of effort and poor concentration. I think we made a mistake in re-signing him as I cannot see him making it as an AFL footballer for two reasons: 1) he is too slow; 2) he is hopeless when the ball hits the ground. Key forwards these days are required to get their goals largely from marks on the lead and from roving off the deck. Contested marking is no longer a highly valuable commodity. Look how many goals Franklin and Fevola kicked by roving the ball off the deck last year. In my view, the future of key forwards at AFL level is Brett Burton/Russell Robertson types with the main criteria being: excellent pace, very good in the air for their size, good on the deck and high skill level. Obviously the taller they are the better, but height is certainly now much less important than pace.

Petterd – I am not convinced Petterd will make it (but I hope I am proven wrong). His kicking/skill level is very overrated by Melbourne supporters and he is not exceptionally quick. I also think he lacks a bit of desperation when chasing/tackling. If he is going to make it I think it will be more likely in a midfield role, as he reads the game quite well.

Frawley – The jury is still out on Frawley. He could become a very good key defender or another wasted first round pick. His kicking is just ordinary at AFL level and I doubt he will ever be a good AFL kick. He needs to develop his defensive game to a level where he can shut down the best forwards in the game. Unfortunately for him he we now have good depth in the key backs role, which is the only role I can see him making it.

Bell – Bell will be 24 at the start of the year and has played 63 AFL games. Yet I don’t think he has developed the decision making skills required to be a good AFL footballer. I would initially give younger players preference at the selection table. I think he needs to be extremely fit to play at AFL level.

Valenti – While I love his heart I am not convinced Valenti has enough ingredients to make it at AFL level. Specifically I think he is not big enough, not a good enough kick and too slow. While many watchers compare him to Sam Mitchell, which is quite a good comparison, I think Mitchell has a number of key advantages – 1) he is bigger/heavier; 2) he is a better kick on both sides of the body; 3) he is the best in the AFL at reading the play at stoppages.

I have not seen enough of the others on our list to make comment but hopefully one or two can push for a senior spot over the preseason competition.

[Gorgoroth 13,016]

Id have maric in the FP, Sylvia on the HFF for buckley

[Demonator 93]

Wouldn't have thought Aussie would miss out?!

I'd at least have him on the bench instead of Warnock!

[LeBron James 41]

I think that is a very good summary of all our players. Although i don't think Newton gets support on this site. He is pretty underrated in that regard.

He's played 16 career games and kicked 23 goals, not a bad return at all considering how poorly we deliver it to the forward line.

Not to mention he is only 21. I think he has a future.

He also averaged 1.5 goals a game this year, kicking at least 1 goal in every match he played in.

[timD 994]

G'day Fat Tony - nice first post!

Here's my go at the same best 22.

B Garland Martin Whelan

HB Bruce Rivers Buckley

C Wheatley McLean Green

HF Sylvia Miller Davey

F Bate Robertson Wonaeamirri

Fol Johnson Jones McDonald

Int Jamar Morton Frawley Moloney

Emg Maric Bell

I've put Buckley into HB over Bartrum because of my perception of superior run - a quality we need desperately. I absolutely agree about Bruce off half-back. I've included Frawley as a possible replacement defender - Warnock is unlucky but we need toknow if Frawley can develop beyond Warnock. Frawley can also take small or tall and could be rotated with Bruce if we wanted to paly him through the middle or forward.

No Dunn for me. In fact, I'm not getting a 'defensive' midfielder at all. Having a defensive side to your game is important and if you don't I'm not picking you. Mclean and Jones better have learnt the lessons of last year- if not I'll drop them for Maric or Grimes or even Belly until they do.

Wonna is in for me - he earnt a place on last year's performance. Jamar takes his place on the bench becasue we need more than one ruckman. Morton stays on the bench to rotate through centre and half-forward.

Robbo, Sylvia, Bate and Miller provide marking targets through the forward line; davey and wonna provide run and sparkle.

[Devoted Demon 0]

I think that is a very good summary of all our players. Although i don't think Newton gets support on this site. He is pretty underrated in that regard.

He's played 16 career games and kicked 23 goals, not a bad return at all considering how poorly we deliver it to the forward line.

Not to mention he is only 21. I think he has a future.

He also averaged 1.5 goals a game this year, kicking at least 1 goal in every match he played in.

I didnt know those states on Newton. I am not a big fan of his but 23goals from 16 games isnt to bad intresting to see what bailey does with him this year I might pay more attention then make up my mind.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,233]

B Garland Martin Wheatley

HB Rivers Frawley Green

C Buckley McLean Morton

HF Sylvia Miller Davey

F Watts Newton Wonaeamirri

Fol Jamar Bruce McDonald

Int Johnson Jones Dunn Grimes

Emg: Maric, Petterd, Whelan

This is the line up I would like to see round 1. Just some clarifications prior to being chastised:

I do not rate Bate, Bartram, Bell and Moloney and believe other players should be played in their place if we are to improve our ladder position. Yes they will have good days but their decision making and disposal will let us down more often than not. The same could be said for players such as Buckley or Bruce but the positives with both players outweigh the negatives for mine.

I rate Whelan as a footballer but believe he is very limited in his role as a back pocket and would prefer to see more versatile players such as Garland or Wheatley fill that role where required. His body is also a risk and I would prefer to see other players advance ahead of him this season.

I doubt Robertson will be available for round 1 and am doubtful he will get even close to his best until mid season if it all. We need to push games into Newton and see if he has the attitude to make it. I am confident that we will play Watts early on as well if he shows anything during the preseason matches.

I am sure at least one of the first or second year players will stand out in the NAB matches and obviously this will change once players are seen in match conditions.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,233]

I think that is a very good summary of all our players. Although i don't think Newton gets support on this site. He is pretty underrated in that regard.

He's played 16 career games and kicked 23 goals, not a bad return at all considering how poorly we deliver it to the forward line.

Not to mention he is only 21. I think he has a future.

He also averaged 1.5 goals a game this year, kicking at least 1 goal in every match he played in.

M2W I agree with you regarding Newton. Newtons laconic manner, reported immaturity and supporter impatience at not having a key position forward has seen him harshly marked. The only forwards to kick more than 40 goals (the top 21 forwards) in 2008 that were 21 or younger were Franklin, Roughy, McKinley and Cloke. Not many forwards make a mark before 22. Newton should be coming into his own this year and I would expect him to be given every opportunity early in the year to cement his spot in the starting 18.

[jacey 333]

Tough on Warnock by most MFC supporters. I think everyone's overlooking him for Martin cause of his age but he's 24-25.

Steph's exciting and young and has a future but Warnock was sensational last year in a backline constantly under pressure. He would be my first pick in the back 6.

[dee-tox 4,835]

Big Red, I think your backline is a bit tall! You gotta have Wheels there. He is hard, disposal excellent and rarely beaten one-on-one. Apart from that he can run and carry and leads by example. Other than that only three key defenders are necessary so one of Garland, Frawley, Martin or Rivers misses out. Other than that is looks good!

B Garland Martin Wheatley

HB Rivers Frawley Green

C Buckley McLean Morton

HF Sylvia Miller Davey

F Watts Newton Wonaeamirri

Fol Jamar Bruce McDonald

Int Johnson Jones Dunn Grimes

Emg: Maric, Petterd, Whelan

This is the line up I would like to see round 1. Just some clarifications prior to being chastised:

I do not rate Bate, Bartram, Bell and Moloney and believe other players should be played in their place if we are to improve our ladder position. Yes they will have good days but their decision making and disposal will let us down more often than not. The same could be said for players such as Buckley or Bruce but the positives with both players outweigh the negatives for mine.

I rate Whelan as a footballer but believe he is very limited in his role as a back pocket and would prefer to see more versatile players such as Garland or Wheatley fill that role where required. His body is also a risk and I would prefer to see other players advance ahead of him this season.

I doubt Robertson will be available for round 1 and am doubtful he will get even close to his best until mid season if it all. We need to push games into Newton and see if he has the attitude to make it. I am confident that we will play Watts early on as well if he shows anything during the preseason matches.

I am sure at least one of the first or second year players will stand out in the NAB matches and obviously this will change once players are seen in match conditions.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,233]

Big Red, I think your backline is a bit tall! You gotta have Wheels there. He is hard, disposal excellent and rarely beaten one-on-one. Apart from that he can run and carry and leads by example. Other than that only three key defenders are necessary so one of Garland, Frawley, Martin or Rivers misses out. Other than that is looks good!

Whelan is good on a true small ie: Milne but struggles against smaller players that play above there head ie: Medhurst, Nathan Brown etc. He also does not have the versatility to play anywhere else. If this team was just for round 1 then I would expect Whelan to play on Lindsay or Campbell as he specifically suits but I prefer the versatility of the other line up when not matching it against a specific side. For mine I did not class Garland as a tall as he can play on players of varying heights.

I do not have stats to back it up but my feeling is that Whelans disposal has decreased in quality in the last 2 years. This may be injury related but his disposal definitely has not appeared as good to me in the last two than previous.

[45HG 1,559]

I do not have stats to back it up but my feeling is that Whelans disposal has decreased in quality in the last 2 years. This may be injury related but his disposal definitely has not appeared as good to me in the last two than previous.

You don't have stats to back that up, because the stats would show that to be wrong.

This year he had the second best disposal efficiency in the team (the top was Grimes who had 221 less touches than Wrecker, 8 in total).

Indeed, the best DE for someone who had more touches than him over the season had a % 7.5 lower than Wheels.

Now, that next player is Daniel Bell who is much maligned around here and whilst I am one to defend him against pretty much most attacks, his disposal does let him down more than it should, so I do not believe these stats to be a completely accurate guide

I agree Wheels' kicking has deteriorated and the DE stat is (this year in the Brissie game he had 31 touches at 91% yet I counted at least 5 of his kicks which didn't hit a target directly, but were to the advantage of a teammate, hence they were not listed as "ineffective")

I'm pretty sure a few years ago he was in the top 10 for DE, and his 86.9% efficiency this year certainly underlines how useful he is with the footy.

Indeed this year, for players with at least 229 possessions (his amount) he ranks 8th in the AFL

[montasaurus 0]

Our best 22 has to include a dedicated 2nd ruckman. You can't expect a full back to fulfil these backup duties. Be it jamar,Spencer, meesen or martin one of these have to be either FP or int as the backup ruck. This puts garland to FB and Warnock to a pocket where they played great footy last year.

Wheatley v Morton is an interesting one for the wing, both had good years last year but I would tend to go with the younger moving forward. Otherwise great post

[Bring Back Rod Grinter 0]

Fat Tony,

Clearly you have been too busy eating pies during Demons games and have not been watching much of the footy. A couple of comments in reply if I may:

Bruce - what a cop out to have this bloke on the half back flank. That is the easiest position on the ground, and he simply has to give more. Bruce must play in the guts, and must go head to head with the opposition's big guns.

Aussie - how can you possibly leave him out? He is about the only bloke we have that shows some passion and spirit, qualities so clearly lacking in the rest of the playing group.

Miller - you are kidding yourself. He was virtually the only key forward in a league team last year and all he could muster was 26 goals. Has been and always will be a fake tough guy pretender.

Robbo - more concerned about his next shocking goatie or his below par media work than getting a kick. Cant understand why he is still on the list. Not the future.

It really worries me that we have supporters like you that are so soft on the team. The lack of "killer instinct" at our club, which includes supporters, is what has consistently held us back.

In the words of the great R.D.Barassi, it is time "to get a little bit of dirt on your hands".

If only we still had the great Rodney Grinter on our list ...

[Vipercrunch 2,827]

lol at BBRG.

It's your fault Fat Tony! If only you were harder in you comments about our players. We would be so much better if you were harder!!

Seriously though, very good post FT. It is pretty hard to put together a best 22 I reckon for our club. So many players have under performed or been injured long term. Plenty of young players also which we all have different opinions on about who will improve enough to make good to excellent AFL players. So much "potential" being digested by all the supporters.

My more significant differences are that I would love Garland to move forward if and only if we get Rivers up and going again. I think Garland would be a potent forward and that Martin and Warnock have what it takes to take the two best defenders. I also think we need a second ruckman in the team. PJ is more value playing <40% in the ruck and causing match up problems up forward the rest of the time. That means I have to place alot of hope in Jamar or someone else (Meeson, Spencer...??) becoming the number 1 ruck.

I am very interested to see what our best 22 looks like at the end of the season as we learn more about our younger players and as some of our older players get one season closer to retiremnt (Whelan and Jr in particluar).

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,935]

Anyone who finishes 4th in the B & F (Warnock) deserves a spot in the 22.