We'll win ten games

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Yep.

We'll be stuffed by round 10, but still win ten games by the end of the year because Danners wants to keep his job, instead of playing the hard line and going for the picks by playing young 'uns.

9th in 2007...

Mediocrity thereafter...

[Jaded No More 57,803]

Pure and simple, if we don't get a top 4 draft pick out of this season, it will be a disaster.

[Madness 44]

Agreed, I was so angry after todays game because I was thinking just that Dappa.

[godees 647]

Pure and simple, if we don't get a top 4 draft pick out of this season, it will be a disaster.

Well you can consider it a disaster then because once when get Rivers, Whelan and McLean back then Robbo and whoever else we are going to be out of the bottom 4 in a flash and we won't be going back there.

Plenty of crap or just regularplayers have been picked in the top 4. We will finish 10 or 11 and get pick 6 or 7. I'd rather see us fight and see a few wins than fall over and lose every week like we have. Look at Fiora, and even players like Brennan, Goddard, Sylvia, Ray, etc who will play many games for their team, but none look like they will be superstars of the competition. Kerr was selected in the teens, S burgoyne was at about 8, Cox was a rookie, Dal Santo was at 13, etc etc A top 4 pick doesn't guarantee anything

[Doggo 32]

Plenty of crap or just regular players have been picked in the top 4. We will finish 10 or 11 and get pick 6 or 7. I'd rather see us fight and see a few wins than fall over and lose every week like we have. Look at Fiora, and even players like Brennan, Goddard, Sylvia, Ray, etc who will play many games for their team, but none look like they will be superstars of the competition. Kerr was selected in the teens, S Burgoyne was at about 8, Cox was a rookie, Dal Santo was at 13, etc etc.. A top 4 pick doesn't guarantee anything

Well said. Couldnt agree more.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Yep.

We'll be stuffed by round 10, but still win ten games by the end of the year because Danners wants to keep his job, instead of playing the hard line and going for the picks by playing young 'uns.

9th in 2007...

Mediocrity thereafter...

I think ND and MFC will part company on good terms in a professional manner.

However, I also think it is important that we focus not on the draft pick number but on improving the performance and delivery of talent from our existing list. We are only starting to do this.

We should be focussed on developing a consistently competitive unit that provides the best basis for established players to show their talents and for young players to develop their skills.

Otherwise you end like Richmond....they get the No 1 draft pick (Whoever he is an how good he is???) but at what cost.....How many of their young blokes are progressing and how many would being feeling crushed with the fear of not being good enough.

There is alot to be achieved this year with our list before we work out the queue positions for the lucky dip

[Gorgoroth 12,317]

agree with both rhino and godees

id rather 9th than 15th, i want us to win as many games as we can, i want the likes of dunn, bate, petterd etc get a winning mentality, i want them to hurt lika a [censored] right now and to finish the year strong and have confidence going into next year

[Jarka 767]

I disagree with the Richmond analogy, they're in the position where they are now because of poor recruiting over many years. The Bulldogs finished last a couple of years ago and picked up Cooney and Griffen, do you think how they played that season has any impact on how well they played on the weekend? Absolutely none at all.

The facts are that we have some major problems with out list but we've got an opportunity to fix some of them this year. We also have the chance to get some more game time into some of our developing kids, something that teams challenging for a flag don't have the luxury of.

Now is the time to be smart and play for the future, not for the now.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

Yep.

We'll be stuffed by round 10, but still win ten games by the end of the year because Danners wants to keep his job, instead of playing the hard line and going for the picks by playing young 'uns.

9th in 2007...

Mediocrity thereafter...

If we win Daniher is screwing us because he’s coaching for his career.

When we lose with half our side out it’s Danihers fault because he’s reactive not proactive or his game plans no good.

Win or lose there are people calling for Danihers blood.

A man who has been a great servant for our club over the last decade is getting a pretty rough deal at the moment.

[godees 647]

I think ND and MFC will part company on good terms in a professional manner.

However, I also think it is important that we focus not on the draft pick number but on improving the performance and delivery of talent from our existing list. We are only starting to do this.

We should be focussed on developing a consistently competitive unit that provides the best basis for established players to show their talents and for young players to develop their skills.

Otherwise you end like Richmond....they get the No 1 draft pick (Whoever he is an how good he is???) but at what cost.....How many of their young blokes are progressing and how many would being feeling crushed with the fear of not being good enough.

There is alot to be achieved this year with our list before we work out the queue positions for the lucky dip

I agree. We should be following what Port did last year. They played their young players, played to win (and did win quite a few games) and didn't worry about draft picks. And look at them now. Their young players are stepping up and they have a winning attitude and culture. And I'm confident ND will try to do this.

[DEES 0]

Plenty of crap or just regularplayers have been picked in the top 4. We will finish 10 or 11 and get pick 6 or 7. I'd rather see us fight and see a few wins than fall over and lose every week like we have. Look at Fiora, and even players like Brennan, Goddard, Sylvia, Ray, etc who will play many games for their team, but none look like they will be superstars of the competition. Kerr was selected in the teens, S burgoyne was at about 8, Cox was a rookie, Dal Santo was at 13, etc etc A top 4 pick doesn't guarantee anything

Well said. Couldnt agree more.

Disagee, the youngsters need to be played and yes we need to do what port did last year. Drafting can become a bit of a lottery, but if you have the right tools and know what you are doing than it probably won't have any effect. The great thing our club has is CAC, he is one of the best recruiters going around at the moment and knows what quality is when he sees it. In 2003 when we had a horror season, who did we pick up? Mclean and Sylvia, these two guys look like they will be taking us to a premiership if we can get our list right. If we have higher picks in this year draft it will give us a chance to find another star.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I disagree with the Richmond analogy, they're in the position where they are now because of poor recruiting over many years. The Bulldogs finished last a couple of years ago and picked up Cooney and Griffen, do you think how they played that season has any impact on how well they played on the weekend? Absolutely none at all.

The facts are that we have some major problems with out list but we've got an opportunity to fix some of them this year. We also have the chance to get some more game time into some of our developing kids, something that teams challenging for a flag don't have the luxury of.

Now is the time to be smart and play for the future, not for the now.

The Richmond analogy is not what got them there, its the way they have sort to get out of it. Clearly the Tigers formed a view early in the season. However they publicly "iced" a senior KPP player when they decided just to "play the kids". They sent a very strong message to people inside and outside the Club that where prepared to compromise our season to play for the future. They were wrong. Wallet flew the white flag in what he did and whatever resolve that was in the playing unit is dissolved. Richmond is no place for a young player at the moment. No leadership, no on field guidance or basic support in play. Players dont develop in those surroundings when your team is perpetually flogged.

Your last sentence is where we agree and I believe the way to do it is to be as competitive as possible given our injuries and judiciously introduce your young players through a stable environment where they actually have a chance to perform on their own terms not receive a baptism of fire as your team gets flogged.

And to the credit of ND, he is doing that.

[praha 10,270]

Whether we like it or not, this team still has its eyes on finals. I didnt think I'd ever see the day when fans said they'd rather finish lower than higher. I think we'll win 10-13 games.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Whether we like it or not, this team still has its eyes on finals. I didnt think I'd ever see the day when fans said they'd rather finish lower than higher. I think we'll win 10-13 games.

And so it should but it is also realistic to ensure that the season now is focussed on the development of other players. It is important that if the probability of finals disappears that performances dont dissolve and the season finishes as a rabble.

[Nasher 33,047]

Yep.

We'll be stuffed by round 10, but still win ten games by the end of the year because Danners wants to keep his job, instead of playing the hard line and going for the picks by playing young 'uns.

9th in 2007...

Mediocrity thereafter...

I just hope that if we do tank (which is what you're saying whether you mean to or not), you and everyone else who supports the idea of "kids at all costs" don't spend the next 10 years complaining that we have a losing culture at the club, and that we don't know how to win etc. That's all that is going to come out of Wallet and his "flying the white flag" as Rhino put it.

[45HG 1,539]

with the talent and enthusiasm our young players have, i couldn't see them playing as 'tanking' the season anyway. but yeah, if they are picked over players who have done it all before i suppose that would say where the club is at. best 22 should take the field

[demon magik 0]

DD i don't want to end up 9th like richmond di its the worst spot on the ladder!!! now that will eb even more a tradgety than not getting a draft pick at all.......

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Yeah yeah, righto you lot.

I get what you're saying, that you don't want to instill a "losing culture" into the squad. I have 2 things in mind when I start a thread like this. One, is that yes, good recruiting is more important than high draft picks. Just look at West Coast with Judd and Kerr. Both are of more value than their picks suggest. BUT, the club has a problem with a lack of genuine superstars. While this could change in the coming years with the young guys who are actually at the club NOW, it still will help if we get pick 1, 2, or 3 instead of picks 8, 9, or 10. Yes, getting a high pick is no guarantee, but it is a general rule that the class of the competition comes from higher up. There are always exceptions to the rule, but generally a first pick will do more than a pick ten.

And before you get a head of steam up, don't waste your time by quoting examples of ordinary top selections compared to excellent second-round selections. EVERYONE knows it's not an exact science.

My second point is this. Jase Dunstall the other day said on SEN that the recruiters had recognised surrounding the year Roughead and Franklin were recruited that there weren't any REALLY great KP players coming through. For those few years, forwards like Buddy were at a premium. Whether or not you agree with him is up to you, but it highlights a good point. According to many, a good small player will never be as valuable as a good BIG player. When players like Gumbleton, Leuenberger etc etc come up in the draft, generally they'll be snaffled up quicker because good talls that can make an immediate impact are like hens' teeth.

If we had pick 3 or better in last year's draft we may have recruited a genuinely good ruckman or future FF to replace Neita. BOTH of these positions will be spoken about a LOT in the coming years, since we already have good players playing in them that are nearing the end of their careers.

The same may be true of this year. A young 199cm ruckman/forward is killing them by the name of Matt Kreuzer. If the press about him stays the same, he'll be recruited in the top 3. If we're 13th or higher, we'll miss out and may end up with a different type of player.

Look, I ABSOLUTELY agree that bottoming out for long periods a la Hawthorn and Richmond is NOT the right way to go. There's been no proof that THIS is the way to win flags. St Kilda haven't won one using this model, and the Tiges seem to be going backwards. Brisbane, you could argue, have used it well, but they had 2 teams' worth of early pick to choose from, with a tried and true coach to coach them....

SO.... I reckon having great players there to show the young potentials how to do it is important. We have that now, at least with the likes of Neitz and JMac. ANY recruit will benefit from their example.

But I digress. Mostly I think to have impact you must get the most you can from the early picks you INEVITABLY will get at some stage in your club's life. Judd is an example here, as is Brock. If you want to know how we go without a single first round selection, you only need to look as far as the first 7 rounds of this year, then see the difference when Brock returns.

We are in the position where we KNOW certain ladder positions are out of our reach, even as early as round 7. Those positions are 1-8, if you're honest. With THAT in mind, I don't CARE which position we end up in, though I'd like to avoid the wooden spoon if possible.

I'll take another Brock over another Bate/Jones (and I LOVE those players) any day. And I'd like to see what CAC will do with an early pick, to redeem himself for Molan (which he's already done with Brock anyway). And for the record, Sylvia is still in the running to repay CAC's faith.

I like it.

[Jarka 767]

The Richmond analogy is not what got them there, its the way they have sort to get out of it. Clearly the Tigers formed a view early in the season. However they publicly "iced" a senior KPP player when they decided just to "play the kids". They sent a very strong message to people inside and outside the Club that where prepared to compromise our season to play for the future. They were wrong. Wallet flew the white flag in what he did and whatever resolve that was in the playing unit is dissolved. Richmond is no place for a young player at the moment. No leadership, no on field guidance or basic support in play. Players dont develop in those surroundings when your team is perpetually flogged.

Your last sentence is where we agree and I believe the way to do it is to be as competitive as possible given our injuries and judiciously introduce your young players through a stable environment where they actually have a chance to perform on their own terms not receive a baptism of fire as your team gets flogged.

And to the credit of ND, he is doing that.

There's 'playing your youngsters' and then there's 'playing your youngsters.' I'm not suggesting we rest Neitz, White, McDonald and Yze for the rest of the year, but I think playing some of the older guys who obviously aren't up to it is a waste, especially if they're taking up a spot of a promising kid. For example, having Ward and Brown in the same team when Chris Johnson has been overlooked is crazy in my eyes (perhaps I'm not an AFL coach for good reason....). Same goes for playing Holland.

I don't think the Richmond one is a good example because Gasper has been passed it for quite awhile, it's amazing that right up until he retired the rest of the footy world were calling him an over the hill hack. There current predicament has nothing to do with the decisions they've made this year.

Daniher is in for a hiding no matter what he does now, he can't win.

[Jaded No More 57,803]

There's 'playing your youngsters' and then there's 'playing your youngsters.' I'm not suggesting we rest Neitz, White, McDonald and Yze for the rest of the year, but I think playing some of the older guys who obviously aren't up to it is a waste, especially if they're taking up a spot of a promising kid. For example, having Ward and Brown in the same team when Chris Johnson has been overlooked is crazy in my eyes (perhaps I'm not an AFL coach for good reason....). Same goes for playing Holland.

Agree 1000%!

Playing youngsters is great if:

1) They are replacing old heads who are not best 22 material anymore

2) They are ready to play, be it mentally or physically

In my opinion, there are only 3 players left to debut this season, and all 3 will. The key though, is to debut them, and give them significant game time to prove themselves (like Petterd), not bring them in, play them for 10 minutes then dump them in favour of has-beens (like CJ).

The other thing about our position at the moment, is that we can afford to experiment. So we can afford to play Sylvia and Bate at CHF, and we can play Dunn on the wing, and PJ can be given time to work on his slightly disturbing rucking technique.

This probably won't win us as many games as playing the traditional Ward, Brown, Holland combo, with Ferguson and Bizzell as side-kicks. But what it will do, is set us up for the future, which is an absolute must.

If we finish 9th or 10th, and end up with a middle of the road pick, we risk more than just not landing one of the best kids available, we also risk being less of a chance to land someone like Judd! This year, more than ever, having a top 3 pick up your sleeve is absolutely crucial.

[grazman 6,427]

The same may be true of this year. A young 199cm ruckman/forward is killing them by the name of Matt Kreuzer. If the press about him stays the same, he'll be recruited in the top 3. If we're 13th or higher, we'll miss out and may end up with a different type of player.

Dan, many are predicting Kreuzer will go as first Pick. In which case he will go to Richmond, whose ruck situation is similar to ours. No one really knows, because so much of the draft is based around the national championships. That said it really doesn't matter whether you have pick 3 or 6 if you get to select the bloke you had pencilled in for your first pick, it matters a whole lot to the fabric of the team and player's attitudes if you give them any other message than being completely professional in their approach (which means winning).

If we finish 9th or 10th, and end up with a middle of the road pick, we risk more than just not landing one of the best kids available, we also risk being less of a chance to land someone like Judd! This year, more than ever, having a top 3 pick up your sleeve is absolutely crucial.

That would be all well and good if you knew that was happening in advance, you can plan for the future based on history, predictablility and the available intelligence. You can't plan for the future based on What if's.... Judd may come home, and Martians may land on the MCG as well. Its more prudent to plan around the knowns than the unknowns.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Dan, many are predicting Kreuzer will go as first Pick. In which case he will go to Richmond, whose ruck situation is similar to ours. No one really knows, because so much of the draft is based around the national championships. That said it really doesn't matter whether you have pick 3 or 6 if you get to select the bloke you had pencilled in for your first pick, it matters a whole lot to the fabric of the team and player's attitudes if you give them any other message than being completely professional in their approach (which means winning).

Yes. But what's your point? I'm not saying get the players to lose. I'm saying ND will play his oldies and get us to 11th when our better players return and do what they do best.

If Neale plays mostly kids and we get there, then that's ok, at least we would have gained 10-15 games experience in what is the future of the club.

I love how if someone expresses the desire to get a top pick he's accused of WANTING his club to fail. They're not the same thing. I watch all these other clubs recruit players I'd LIKE to have at the club. And to be honest, McLean is the only dead-set future superstar that I have ABSOLUTE confidence in. Any coincidence that he's a top 5 pick? And don't even think about quoting Sylvia as a good example of how it can go wrong. I think if we asked CAC he'd say he'd rather a top 3 pick if he's got his eye on a specific player.

Look. I never said I wanted the club to TANK to get top picks. All I said is that I wanted top picks. If the cost is playing kids, and not being SO disappointed that we lose more games than we win, then so be it.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

That would be all well and good if you knew that was happening in advance, you can plan for the future based on history, predictablility and the available intelligence. You can't plan for the future based on What if's.... Judd may come home, and Martians may land on the MCG as well. Its more prudent to plan around the knowns than the unknowns.

And what are the knowns exactly? That our list can't win a flag? That Daniher hasn't got what it takes? That we're just unlucky? What has playing the percentages got us so far? An ok list. But not one good enough to win a flag.

Besides, we all throw the dice trying to get a six. The Eagles rolled one dice, and rolled a seven, just about.

We've rolled a couple of dice, in some cases we've thrown a 1 (Molan), in others a 3 (Sylvia) and in another a 6 (McLean).

It may be more prudent to work the knowns. Here's what we know.

- We're not going to win the flag in 2007.

- The media, public, MFC fans in general and everyone else believe that the injuries we've sustained are to blame, and maybe a bit of Daniher as well. Axe Daniher and start next year with a fresh list and good pickups... what's the harm in that? The club won't be harmed by a bad season, at least no more than it already has.

With a good and expansive list we have a chance in the next 10 years IF, and I can't stress IF enough, we recruit 1-3 superstars SOMEHOW.

You think being nice, and coming 9th for a few seasons will get us there? No. We HAVE to roll the dice sometime if you're SERIOUS. ROLL THE DICE... NOT tank. Our season is shot.

What do we stand to gain by winning ten games? Pride? Instead, maybe ask yourself what do we stand to lose by winning them.

If it turns out Kreuzer is the next Franklin, or pick 3 is the next Judd, what will we think then? In 5 years, 2007 will be a long forgotten memory, and the club will still be here, and will more than likely be in DESPERATE need of a legend of the likes of Barrassi.

All of you can stick around hoping that our resident genius CAC will recruit him at pick 8 or more. I'm hoping he'll get the chance at the end of this year at pick 2, 3 or 4, because it's simple. The odds are, we'll do better with that early a pick.

Also, for those of you who are so keen he gets another Kerr/Petterd in the second round, consoder this. If we lose enough games we DO get a priority pick just before the second round. For example if we come 15th with 4 wins and the team that comes 14th gets more than 5, we get pick 2, 18 and 20. (Assuming the Blues don't win less than 5, as that will guarantee them a round one priority)

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

There's 'playing your youngsters' and then there's 'playing your youngsters.' I'm not suggesting we rest Neitz, White, McDonald and Yze for the rest of the year, but I think playing some of the older guys who obviously aren't up to it is a waste, especially if they're taking up a spot of a promising kid. For example, having Ward and Brown in the same team when Chris Johnson has been overlooked is crazy in my eyes (perhaps I'm not an AFL coach for good reason....). Same goes for playing Holland.

I don't think the Richmond one is a good example because Gasper has been passed it for quite awhile, it's amazing that right up until he retired the rest of the footy world were calling him an over the hill hack. There current predicament has nothing to do with the decisions they've made this year.

Daniher is in for a hiding no matter what he does now, he can't win.

Where did I or anyone suggest resting Neitz or the others. They play based on their form...period.

MFC are actually adopting that position now. They are giving young players that deserve the opportunity the chance to play on fair terms and broadening their opportuninties.

Brown for all his shortcomings was nearly BOG against Port. Why cant he be selected? I would have thought CJ would play based on the same criteria as other players...form. He has not shown any at AFL level to the disappointment of his supporters who can only limply blame the coach despite CJ playing a number of games where he has been looking all at sea. He has a confidence issue that wont be address until CJ believes he can make and throwing him back against the wolves when he does not believe he can is counter productive. And you can spare the coaching conspiracy issues.

Given Rivers was injured who was the young player to play on Darcy? Ferg????? No thanks. Holland was the right selection on a power forward player.

Once again I know why Richmond have got in their position. Its the message they sent about this year when as you rightly point out they sack an experienced player when he should have gone with some professionalism at the end of last year. There were a lot of negative and non competitive messages Wallet sent the playing group by this action which was already struggling with confidence and belief.

Its a small distance from focussing on winning to compromising that focus and once compromised any such team will be belted. Its not surprising Richmond have had some many 100 + point losses in a such a short time. The list is not good but the severe floods that Wallet has played has flown the white flag so often I am surprised that has not happened more often

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

.......

Graz is right DD. You dont know wat you are going to get at Pick 3 versus pick 6 and it is not necessarily a better player. You are punting at this point what sort of player you get from the barrel. Kreuser may or may not be the great white hope and we might not even get access to him. Richmond should come last this year and need good big players.

We have alot to gain this year by continuing to develop our U23 players within a competitive positive playing environment. There is little certainty to gain by tanking the season. If you are not out to win a game...you are tanking whatever spin you put on it. And I think that has a negative and unprodctive impact on your existing younger players.

I just dont see the sense in compromising your existing list of young players to get a player who you dont know who it is but you think because of the order of the queue that he is better than if you have a chioce a little later in the queue.

If you look at the AFL draft over the past 10 years there have been a number of 1 to 4 picks that have not delivered relative to picks 5 to 10 and there is no given that we would be better off given how little we know about who is available.