Rhys Palmer

[old55 22,775]

Liked Lamb over Nicho back then but that's more of an indication of how bad Nicho was.

Lamb was never gonna be a running back. He got slaughtered and unfairly roasted by ND.

boom ... tish!

[warren dean 193]

Unlike you, Warren, I like to use my eyes when making a judgement call on players and if I'm proven to be wrong so be it. There's no doubt already that Bate and Jones are successful draft picks. My eyes tell me this. They also tell me that Bartram is a success. His disappearance from the team this year affected us greatly. You can 'keep the jury out' on these players while I enjoy their burgeoning talent.

We're still paying for the 2001 draft and in isolation it was terrible. But I also recognise that CAC's recruiting in the last 4 years is almost without peer. And yes, I want success, and I doubt anyone on here has ever called me "easily pleased", but perhaps I have the ability to balance my thoughts with expectations. He's had 2 dud drafts in 9 (1998 and 2001) - last year is too early to call. Two of those drafts were in his first five years. Like many of us, Craig, I suspect, is better at his craft now than 6-10 years ago. Now I could keep beating him over the head for those early drafts, and CAC and I have shared some interesting interludes over the years (perhaps you're a little too much of a Johnny come lately to have read them) but it would be unfair to keep dragging him over the coals without recognising the considerable success he's had recently.

You mention Derek Hine as being a success. How long has he been Collingwood's recruiter ? As you say, under Noel Judkins the fith had a horrible recruiting record. You want to disregard the last 2 drafts but I've a suspicion that they're the only 2 drafts Hine has participated in. Judkins was in charge during the McLean/Sylvia draft and that's where you start your analysis.

I look forward to revisiting this discussion in 12 months.

1997 - c

1998 - d

1999 - a+

2000 - b+

2001 - f

2002 - c

2003 - a

2004 - b+

2005 - b+ (could become an a)

I respect your opinion, Hannabal - don't agree with it, but respect it none the less. The Johnny come lately line is a bit rich though- I don't know of, nor care about, your history with CAC, but I have been a MFC member for the best part of 20 years except for a brief period of time when I worked as a spotter at another club. (which, by the way is not particularly relevant to my opinions on MFC's recruiting as my job was to profile a range of players from suburban leagues, so I was nothing particularly important in terms of recruitment, just suggesting and writing reports on blokes worth looking at). I would say I would be as knowledgable about the factual history of trading and drafting as anyone else on this site, and I use these facts to form opinions. You may or may not agree with them and that is fine- My point is that CAC has not been the salvation of the Club that many people make him out to be. Recruiting is an inexact science and he has made mistakes and in 10 years he is yet to land the really big fish! These are the facts - you know them and I know them and we choose to form different views based on these. As always, I have enjoyed the intellectual stimulation! Oh, and I am more than happy in 12 months to come back to this topic and say I was wrong and CAC is the greatest recruiter of them all - if it can be justified!! Cheers

[Jarka 767]

I respect your opinion, Hannabal - don't agree with it, but respect it none the less. The Johnny come lately line is a bit rich though- I don't know of, nor care about, your history with CAC, but I have been a MFC member for the best part of 20 years except for a brief period of time when I worked as a spotter at another club. (which, by the way is not particularly relevant to my opinions on MFC's recruiting as my job was to profile a range of players from suburban leagues, so I was nothing particularly important in terms of recruitment, just suggesting and writing reports on blokes worth looking at). I would say I would be as knowledgable about the factual history of trading and drafting as anyone else on this site, and I use these facts to form opinions. You may or may not agree with them and that is fine- My point is that CAC has not been the salvation of the Club that many people make him out to be. Recruiting is an inexact science and he has made mistakes and in 10 years he is yet to land the really big fish! These are the facts - you know them and I know them and we choose to form different views based on these. As always, I have enjoyed the intellectual stimulation! Oh, and I am more than happy in 12 months to come back to this topic and say I was wrong and CAC is the greatest recruiter of them all - if it can be justified!! Cheers

wd, I am of the opinion that the club has failed with picking KPP talent over the last ten years. What's your opinion with that?

Also, what areas did you work with?

[old55 22,775]

I would say I would be as knowledgable about the factual history of trading and drafting as anyone else on this site, and I use these facts to form opinions.

That's fine if you get them right. Your analysis of the 2000 draft didn't support this statement. You were wrong about that year - Thompson was a very good selection at 16 and draft penalties ruined our chance after that - it's a pretty fundamental error. Similar for 1998, Lamb was an ordinary pick but there wasn't much after him and our next pick was at 60. You're attributing Holland and Read to CAC but the coach's hands are all over trades and the PSD. Your dismissal of post 2003 years in MFC analysis but support for Hine based on those years is flawed logic.

The heavy hitters of draft analysis on this site are Fan, Hannabal and goodoil etc - keep working on your swing ...

Yes CAC hasn't selected a big star yet (depending on how McLean develops under Bailey and co), but apart from 2001 which was a shocking year and had the coach's fingerprints all over it with Molan, there haven't been too many stars taken after his picks. You will find a few ...

[old55 22,775]

wd, I am of the opinion that the club has failed with picking KPP talent over the last ten years. What's your opinion with that?

Also, what areas did you work with?

Again for you Jarka, a little homework - find the good KPPs taken after CAC's picks. A blind butcher can count them on one hand.

We are a relatively poor club with many deficits compared with other clubs - we've got to make every post a winner. I think CAC is one big winner for us. Now with the new development coaching structure in place to take advantage of his selctions I think we could see a big improvement.

[sylvinator 96]

Again for you Jarka, a little homework - find the good KPPs taken after CAC's picks. A blind butcher can count them on one hand.

We are a relatively poor club with many deficits compared with other clubs - we've got to make every post a winner. I think CAC is one big winner for us. Now with the new development coaching structure in place to take advantage of his selctions I think we could see a big improvement.

firstly, old55 u sound pretty patronizing...assigning homework...mmm

secondly, there are many quality KPP taken after our failed picks at KPP.

draft of 2002- we picked up Nick Smith at 15- this was well above his predicted worth! Smith is delisted having played like 1 game

KPP picked up after pick 15 include:

Stephen Gilham- pick 16- starting FullBack Hawthorn

Brent Staker- pick 37- starting 18 WCE

Tim Boyle- pick 51- starting CHF Hawthorn

Brad Fisher- pick 72- Key forward in Carlton's top 10 players

Daniel Merrett- pick 30- starting FullBack Brisbane

Will Minson- pick 20- Ruckman/KPP Bulldogs

non-key position players that were picked up after pick 15- Malceski ,Selwood (Bris), Kade Simpson, Selwood (WCE), Ebert, Cloke (fathersons)

draft of 2001- we picked up Luke Molna at 9- this was well above his predicted worth! pick 26 Aaron Rogers...another failed KP pospect that did nothing.

KPP picked up after pick 9 and 26:

Matt McGuire- pick 21- Starting CHB StKilda

Mark Seaby- pick 22- Ruck/KPP WestCoast

Ashley Hansen- pick 38- starting CHF WestCoast

Jarrod Waite- pick 46- starting CHF carlton

Brian Harris- pick 71- starting FB bulldogs

Lewis Robers Thompson- pick 29- solid KPP Sydney- premiership CHB

other non-KPP to be picked up after our blunders- Brent Reilly, DanSanto, Jason Gram, Campbell Brown, Rodan, Sam Mitchell, Montagna, Dane Swan

do you still think there were no KPP available after our blunders? there draft blunders (particularly NickSmith and Luke Molan as first rounders) have significantly set our club back. we still have no super reliable CHF or CHB.

our continous inability to draft key position players has not only meant we still have gaping holes at CHF and CHB, but we'v wasted so many picks on KPP well above their true value when we could be picking the best available.

maybe im wrong, but i speculate that James Frawley was the best available key backman at his pick, rather than the best available player. i could be wrong, but if this is the case, until we find great KPP in the draft, our drafting will continue to suffer

[Brocky 4]

KPP picked up after pick 15 include:

Stephen Gilham- pick 16- starting FullBack Hawthorn

Brent Staker- pick 37- starting 18 WCE

Tim Boyle- pick 51- starting CHF Hawthorn

Brad Fisher- pick 72- Key forward in Carlton's top 10 players

Daniel Merrett- pick 30- starting FullBack Brisbane

Will Minson- pick 20- Ruckman/KPP Bulldogs

KPP picked up after pick 9 and 26:

Matt McGuire- pick 21- Starting CHB StKilda

Mark Seaby- pick 22- Ruck/KPP WestCoast

Ashley Hansen- pick 38- starting CHF WestCoast

Jarrod Waite- pick 46- starting CHF carlton

Brian Harris- pick 71- starting FB bulldogs

Lewis Robers Thompson- pick 29- solid KPP Sydney- premiership CHB

Old said good KPP. Waite and Hanson aside, I don't see one.

Stephen Gilham- not that good.

Brent Staker- not a KPP.

Tim Boyle- he is a third tall, not KPP for mine.

Brad Fisher- not a KPP.

Daniel Merrett- average at best.

Will Minson- ruckman, hack.

Matt McGuire- average player

Mark Seaby- ruckman

Ashley Hansen- good player, see above.

Jarrod Waite- good player, see above.

Brian Harris- lasting to pick 71 says it all. No-one else wanted him either.

Lewis Robers Thompson- solid, but Rivers is better.

[warren dean 193]

That's fine if you get them right.

I assume you are talking about opinions here, Old. They are never right or wrong. They are people's views based on interpretation of data. I have given you mine. You disagree. That's the way of things. Whatever way you want to dress it up, there are currently no players still on our list from the national drafts of 1998, 2000, 2001 (except Miller). That is fact. Thompson is proving to be a good player at Adelaide - fact. In 4 years with us he played 39 games - he looked promising, but was always likely to go home. The club tried to change his mind - it couldn't. I assume those you name are heavy hitters because they present opinions you often agree with! That's great. This forum needs different opinions otherwise it just becomes the domain of sycophants. I have given you mine, you have given me yours- I take nothing personally.

Jarka, I think you are correct and I have posted this elsewhere. They are,however difficult to find, as Old points out. I have posted here before about a Saints spotter believing that Lachlan Henderson is the best KPP talent in this draft, not withstanding his issues with injury. He believes MFC will look at him and/or Masten assuming that Cotchin is gone by our first pick. Once again, just an opinion. As for your other question, I was asked in my role as a teacher to provide a report to a club on a prospective draftee some years ago. They didn't draft the kid, but obviously thought I knew a little about it because they asked me to to do some work in a few local competitions focusing mainly on kids who had played TAC in the previous year or two but hadn't been drafted. I was asked to follow up with them and report on their progress Basically a lot of watching local footy and giving written feedback. I did it for about 18 months - quite enjoyable but time consuming!!!

[Demons 32 235]

firstly, old55 u sound pretty patronizing...assigning homework...mmm

secondly, there are many quality KPP taken after our failed picks at KPP.

draft of 2002- we picked up Nick Smith at 15- this was well above his predicted worth! Smith is delisted having played like 1 game

KPP picked up after pick 15 include:

Stephen Gilham- pick 16- starting FullBack Hawthorn

Brent Staker- pick 37- starting 18 WCE

Tim Boyle- pick 51- starting CHF Hawthorn

Brad Fisher- pick 72- Key forward in Carlton's top 10 players

Daniel Merrett- pick 30- starting FullBack Brisbane

Will Minson- pick 20- Ruckman/KPP Bulldogs

non-key position players that were picked up after pick 15- Malceski ,Selwood (Bris), Kade Simpson, Selwood (WCE), Ebert, Cloke (fathersons)

draft of 2001- we picked up Luke Molna at 9- this was well above his predicted worth! pick 26 Aaron Rogers...another failed KP pospect that did nothing.

KPP picked up after pick 9 and 26:

Matt McGuire- pick 21- Starting CHB StKilda

Mark Seaby- pick 22- Ruck/KPP WestCoast

Ashley Hansen- pick 38- starting CHF WestCoast

Jarrod Waite- pick 46- starting CHF carlton

Brian Harris- pick 71- starting FB bulldogs

Lewis Robers Thompson- pick 29- solid KPP Sydney- premiership CHB

other non-KPP to be picked up after our blunders- Brent Reilly, DanSanto, Jason Gram, Campbell Brown, Rodan, Sam Mitchell, Montagna, Dane Swan

do you still think there were no KPP available after our blunders? there draft blunders (particularly NickSmith and Luke Molan as first rounders) have significantly set our club back. we still have no super reliable CHF or CHB.

our continous inability to draft key position players has not only meant we still have gaping holes at CHF and CHB, but we'v wasted so many picks on KPP well above their true value when we could be picking the best available.

maybe im wrong, but i speculate that James Frawley was the best available key backman at his pick, rather than the best available player. i could be wrong, but if this is the case, until we find great KPP in the draft, our drafting will continue to suffer

Terrific

[old55 22,775]

firstly, old55 u sound pretty patronizing...assigning homework...mmm

Jarrod Waite- pick 46- starting CHF carlton

Look I just don't think there's much to be gained by bald statements without doing the research - at least you've given it a go.

As Brocky says - Hansen and Waite but wait Waite was father-son .. that makes one so far.

I assume you are talking about opinions here, Old. ... I assume those you name are heavy hitters because they present opinions you often agree with! That's great.

No Warren I'm talking about the facts behind your opinions, there was very little behind Lamb in the 98 draft and our next selction was 60. Scott Thompson was a good selection in 2001 whichever way you want to slice it (Are you seriously advocating that we should never take a non-Victorian?) and our next selection was 62. The facts don't hang CAC in those years.

No I don't always agree with those posters, in fact quite often the opposite, but I respect their knowledge and research over a long period.

[Hannabal 4]

firstly, old55 u sound pretty patronizing...assigning homework...mmm

secondly, there are many quality KPP taken after our failed picks at KPP.

draft of 2002- we picked up Nick Smith at 15- this was well above his predicted worth! Smith is delisted having played like 1 game

KPP picked up after pick 15 include:

Stephen Gilham- pick 16- starting FullBack Hawthorn

Brent Staker- pick 37- starting 18 WCE

Tim Boyle- pick 51- starting CHF Hawthorn

Brad Fisher- pick 72- Key forward in Carlton's top 10 players

Daniel Merrett- pick 30- starting FullBack Brisbane

Will Minson- pick 20- Ruckman/KPP Bulldogs

non-key position players that were picked up after pick 15- Malceski ,Selwood (Bris), Kade Simpson, Selwood (WCE), Ebert, Cloke (fathersons)

draft of 2001- we picked up Luke Molna at 9- this was well above his predicted worth! pick 26 Aaron Rogers...another failed KP pospect that did nothing.

KPP picked up after pick 9 and 26:

Matt McGuire- pick 21- Starting CHB StKilda

Mark Seaby- pick 22- Ruck/KPP WestCoast

Ashley Hansen- pick 38- starting CHF WestCoast

Jarrod Waite- pick 46- starting CHF carlton

Brian Harris- pick 71- starting FB bulldogs

Lewis Robers Thompson- pick 29- solid KPP Sydney- premiership CHB

other non-KPP to be picked up after our blunders- Brent Reilly, DanSanto, Jason Gram, Campbell Brown, Rodan, Sam Mitchell, Montagna, Dane Swan

do you still think there were no KPP available after our blunders? there draft blunders (particularly NickSmith and Luke Molan as first rounders) have significantly set our club back. we still have no super reliable CHF or CHB.

our continous inability to draft key position players has not only meant we still have gaping holes at CHF and CHB, but we'v wasted so many picks on KPP well above their true value when we could be picking the best available.

maybe im wrong, but i speculate that James Frawley was the best available key backman at his pick, rather than the best available player. i could be wrong, but if this is the case, until we find great KPP in the draft, our drafting will continue to suffer

Why did you waste your time highlighting who was taken in 2001 ? It's been conceded that that was a horrible year for us. No convincing was required. I'm sure 2001 wasn't part of Old's "homework".

As for 2002 ? Smith was a dud, but Rivers gives CAC a pass. Just. That said, the players you list are underwhelming in the extreme. Let's just accept it was a terrible draft, probably the worst. Malceski being the pick of the later selections. One can't make chicken salad out of chicken [censored].

[Hannabal 4]

I respect your opinion, Hannabal - don't agree with it, but respect it none the less.

With what do you disagree ? Rather than a general "you rate CAC's performance better than mine" type answer, tell me what I've written that you find incorrect. And if it's just my rating of Bate, Jones, Bartram as "successes" then your clutching at you know what. Be specific in your answer.

Also, ever going to answer the Hine question ?

[warren dean 193]

With what do you disagree ? Rather than a general "you rate CAC's performance better than mine" type answer, tell me what I've written that you find incorrect. And if it's just my rating of Bate, Jones, Bartram as "successes" then your clutching at you know what. Be specific in your answer.

Also, ever going to answer the Hine question ?

Apart from the sanctimonious way in which you often present your arguments, the thing I disagree with mostly is your inability to accept an opinion other than your own. I don't agree that CAC has been as good as most posters to Demonland believe. I have said he has been adequate. My naming of Derek Hine was in response to somebody asking who's better? If I recall correctly I mentioned a few clubs (Port, Geelong, and specifically Ricky Barham at Sydney) - all clubs without the benefit of early picks over a long period. I then mentioned that Hine had done a reasonable job at Collingwood, although he had the benefit of the Pies tank in 05. If you want to narrow it down to the past two drafts we'll have to wait and see. Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid, Brown, Marty Clarke, Goldsack, O'Brien etc Versus Jones, Bartram, Buckley, Frawley, Petterd, Garland, Weetra. Only time will tell, but even you would be hard pressed to argue that atm the Pies haven't had the best of that.

And Hannabal, that's about it, I think!

[mauriesy 7,153]

If you want to narrow it down to the past two drafts we'll have to wait and see. Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid, Brown, Marty Clarke, Goldsack, O'Brien etc Versus Jones, Bartram, Buckley, Frawley, Petterd, Garland, Weetra. Only time will tell, but even you would be hard pressed to argue that atm the Pies haven't had the best of that.

Well, there's a host of top 10 picks in the recent Collingwood list (Thomas #2, Pendlebury #5, Reid #8, Brown #10, Egan #10) that weren't available to CAC, so they're not necessarily comparable. We only had Jones #12 and Frawley #12. To be less biased, you'd go back a little further and include McLean (#5) and Sylvia (#3) in your Melbourne list and compare them against Brent Hall, Brayden Shaw and Billy Morrison.

I think CAC's recent record with late first round picks (#12-#15) is pretty damn good (Bell, Bate, Dunn, Jones, Frawley). Add in Petterd at #30, Newton at #43 and Bartram at #60 and I have no issues with his past 5-year performance.

And unless you measure CAC's performance against all other club recruiters, against draft picks both available at the time and subsequent, and against some sort of objective measurement (e.g. games played) you are all chasing your tails.

[mo64 5,480]

Apart from the sanctimonious way in which you often present your arguments, the thing I disagree with mostly is your inability to accept an opinion other than your own. I don't agree that CAC has been as good as most posters to Demonland believe. I have said he has been adequate. My naming of Derek Hine was in response to somebody asking who's better? If I recall correctly I mentioned a few clubs (Port, Geelong, and specifically Ricky Barham at Sydney) - all clubs without the benefit of early picks over a long period. I then mentioned that Hine had done a reasonable job at Collingwood, although he had the benefit of the Pies tank in 05. If you want to narrow it down to the past two drafts we'll have to wait and see. Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid, Brown, Marty Clarke, Goldsack, O'Brien etc Versus Jones, Bartram, Buckley, Frawley, Petterd, Garland, Weetra. Only time will tell, but even you would be hard pressed to argue that atm the Pies haven't had the best of that.

And Hannabal, that's about it, I think!

WD, you have a very simplistic view of drafting and list management. FWIW, CAC didn't have the opportunity to draft Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid, Brown, Marty Clarke, so your comparisons are irrelevant.

[Hannabal 4]

Apart from the sanctimonious way in which you often present your arguments, the thing I disagree with mostly is your inability to accept an opinion other than your own. I don't agree that CAC has been as good as most posters to Demonland believe. I have said he has been adequate. My naming of Derek Hine was in response to somebody asking who's better? If I recall correctly I mentioned a few clubs (Port, Geelong, and specifically Ricky Barham at Sydney) - all clubs without the benefit of early picks over a long period. I then mentioned that Hine had done a reasonable job at Collingwood, although he had the benefit of the Pies tank in 05. If you want to narrow it down to the past two drafts we'll have to wait and see. Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid, Brown, Marty Clarke, Goldsack, O'Brien etc Versus Jones, Bartram, Buckley, Frawley, Petterd, Garland, Weetra. Only time will tell, but even you would be hard pressed to argue that atm the Pies haven't had the best of that.

So you say Hine has "done better". And Hine has "done a reasonable job at Collingwood". And yet he's done these marvels by the very parameters you disallow Cameron. You don't allow CAC's last 2 drafts to be used as criteria, yet they are soley the measure you are using to favourably judge Hine's performance. I'll let readers form their own view. Needless to say, you haven't done yourself any favours.

Btw, the only "facts" of mine with which you disagree is my .... um difference of opinion.

Well, you're right on one thing. It's done.

[Yencks 8]

WD, you have a very simplistic view of drafting and list management. FWIW, CAC didn't have the opportunity to draft Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid, Brown, Marty Clarke, so your comparisons are irrelevant.

if that's completely true, you make a good point

[rpfc 28,046]

Amazing.

We are arguing about an aspect of the club (CAC's recruiting) that has been (as we all agree) successful.

Only Melbourne supporters can have such disagreement over the extent to which we agree.

Let's look at our other problems before we get to recruiting: maturity of our 'senior' players, lack of development coaching, training facilities etc

I understand some of these are being rectified so we are heading in the right direction. When these are fixed we can complain again about CAC's recruiting.

[warren dean 193]

WD, you have a very simplistic view of drafting and list management. FWIW, CAC didn't have the opportunity to draft Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid, Brown, Marty Clarke, so your comparisons are irrelevant.

Mo, if you go right back to my early posts on this topic, you will see that I left out our recruiting in the last couple of years because I felt it was a bit early to make a judgement. For some reason, some posters thought this unfair. Hannabal asked on what basis I rated Hine's performance as reasonable. I prefaced my response with the fact that he had the benefits of the Pies tank in 05. I did not choose to include this period, others did. Irrespective of the hows and whys of Pies early picks (2 and 5 in 05; 8 and 10 in 06), he appears to have chosen wisely. He passed on Ellis in favour of Thomas when most thought it would go the other way. He picked Pendlebury far earlier than most predicted. He traded well for early picks to land Reid and got Brown, when we possibly would have taken him at 12. The thing is, who knows who will come out the other end better. It's about where your picks are and what you do with them. My view of drafting and list management is very realistic, not simplistic. I am hoping that CAC performs a miracle and lands us some guns. By the way, how do you compare his efforts to those at Sydney, Port and Geelong over the past 5-8 years? Just interested in your opinion as nobody seems to have addressed this at all.

Hannabal, I think we have agreed to disagree, again!

[Yencks 8]

Well, there's a host of top 10 picks in the recent Collingwood list (Thomas #2, Pendlebury #5, Reid #8, Brown #10, Egan #10) that weren't available to CAC, so they're not necessarily comparable. We only had Jones #12 and Frawley #12. To be less biased, you'd go back a little further and include McLean (#5) and Sylvia (#3) in your Melbourne list and compare them against Brent Hall, Brayden Shaw and Billy Morrison.

I think CAC's recent record with late first round picks (#12-#15) is pretty damn good (Bell, Bate, Dunn, Jones, Frawley). Add in Petterd at #30, Newton at #43 and Bartram at #60 and I have no issues with his past 5-year performance.

And unless you measure CAC's performance against all other club recruiters, against draft picks both available at the time and subsequent, and against some sort of objective measurement (e.g. games played) you are all chasing your tails.

couldnt have said it better myself, not that that's very hard

[Hannabal 4]

Mo, if you go right back to my early posts on this topic, you will see that I left out our recruiting in the last couple of years because I felt it was a bit early to make a judgement. For some reason, some posters thought this unfair. Hannabal asked on what basis I rated Hine's performance as reasonable. I prefaced my response with the fact that he had the benefits of the Pies tank in 05. I did not choose to include this period, others did. Irrespective of the hows and whys of Pies early picks (2 and 5 in 05; 8 and 10 in 06), he appears to have chosen wisely. He passed on Ellis in favour of Thomas when most thought it would go the other way. He picked Pendlebury far earlier than most predicted. He traded well for early picks to land Reid and got Brown, when we possibly would have taken him at 12. The thing is, who knows who will come out the other end better. It's about where your picks are and what you do with them. My view of drafting and list management is very realistic, not simplistic. I am hoping that CAC performs a miracle and lands us some guns. By the way, how do you compare his efforts to those at Sydney, Port and Geelong over the past 5-8 years? Just interested in your opinion as nobody seems to have addressed this at all.

Hannabal, I think we have agreed to disagree, again!

I can only conclude that you're deliberately disingenuous.

You highlight Hine when initially quizzed about "who has done better than CAC ?". This was before any reference to the last 2 draft years. You've now trying to conveniently mix timelines here when answering Mo's post. You were then asked "when did Hine become Collingwood's recruiting manager ?". You fail to respond. You're asked about Hine again. You fail to respond. When completely cornered, whilst being fed the answer, you refer to his last couple of years at the draft table. Now you're making out that others referred to this recent period and that you were merely responding to a question about "Hine's reasonable performance". Clearly, you had no clue when he took up his tenure and while trying to save face many posts ago thought it best to keep one's trap shut. After much prodding you're now trying to play down your initial reference to Hine, but the sequential order of posts inconveniently disputes your argument.

And in more embarrassment, you've gone from disregarding CAC's last 2 drafts to waxing on about Hine's decisions in the same period.

You got caught, won't admit it, and look stupid. And some would say are a liar. Particularly me.

Btw, we haven't disagreed again. In my last post I asked you where you disagreed. I'm still waiting for the answer. You've got form.

[Rogue 585]

for rpfc and warren dean, i remember hearing or reading CAC comment that a 'successful' draft pick according to how we rank them, is a player that plays 100 games. (on rethinking that, he may have said 50 games, but that seems way to low for me). 100 games is an interesting one, because if miller plays 15 this year then gets dumped he will qaulify as a 'success', we did get reasonable service out of him, but was he any good? prob not.

I think it was 50, yes. Getting 50+ games out of a pick 60 choice might be good, out of #1 probably not so.

Guys in weaker teams probably play more games, and I guess it doesn't account for injuries either.

At least it's objective, but using just that and that alone to rank success is flawed (as I'm sure CAC acknowledged - I think he mentioned Fiora).

[Go the Biff 3,360]

This has been a ripping read but WTF has Page 2 got to do with Rhys Palmer. Mods, is there any chance of moving the CAC/drafting discussion. I think it deserves its own thread

[emubitter 0]

Mo, if you go right back to my early posts on this topic, you will see that I left out our recruiting in the last couple of years because I felt it was a bit early to make a judgement. For some reason, some posters thought this unfair. Hannabal asked on what basis I rated Hine's performance as reasonable. I prefaced my response with the fact that he had the benefits of the Pies tank in 05. I did not choose to include this period, others did. Irrespective of the hows and whys of Pies early picks (2 and 5 in 05; 8 and 10 in 06), he appears to have chosen wisely. He passed on Ellis in favour of Thomas when most thought it would go the other way. He picked Pendlebury far earlier than most predicted. He traded well for early picks to land Reid and got Brown, when we possibly would have taken him at 12. The thing is, who knows who will come out the other end better. It's about where your picks are and what you do with them. My view of drafting and list management is very realistic, not simplistic. I am hoping that CAC performs a miracle and lands us some guns. By the way, how do you compare his efforts to those at Sydney, Port and Geelong over the past 5-8 years? Just interested in your opinion as nobody seems to have addressed this at all.

Hannabal, I think we have agreed to disagree, again!

so;

you write reports on players in minor leagues!

who do/did you report to?

What are your qualifications?

Does this make you an expert?

[warren dean 193]

I can only conclude that you're deliberately disingenuous.

You highlight Hine when initially quizzed about "who has done better than CAC ?". This was before any reference to the last 2 draft years. You've now trying to conveniently mix timelines here when answering Mo's post. You were then asked "when did Hine become Collingwood's recruiting manager ?". You fail to respond. You're asked about Hine again. You fail to respond. When completely cornered, whilst being fed the answer, you refer to his last couple of years at the draft table. Now you're making out that others referred to this recent period and that you were merely responding to a question about "Hine's reasonable performance". Clearly, you had no clue when he took up his tenure and while trying to save face many posts ago thought it best to keep one's trap shut. After much prodding you're now trying to play down your initial reference to Hine, but the sequential order of posts inconveniently disputes your argument.

And in more embarrassment, you've gone from disregarding CAC's last 2 drafts to waxing on about Hine's decisions in the same period.

You got caught, won't admit it, and look stupid. And some would say are a liar. Particularly me.

Btw, we haven't disagreed again. In my last post I asked you where you disagreed. I'm still waiting for the answer. You've got form.

It's all pretty simple really, Hannabal. I made an assertion that I didn't think CAC's record was as impressive as some would like to believe. Never called him an outright failure and pointed to the fact that in 10 years he hadn't landed the big fish. I'm not exactly sure what it is I was caught out about. Unless having an opinion different to yours is some type of offence on Demonland. I believe I have answered all of your questions, and in context. You are yet to rebut my suggestion that there are a number of clubs who have done better, instead sidestepping on the Hine issue, which really isn't an issue for me at all. As I said way back, and still believe, it is too early to make accurate assessments about the relative worth of players selected in the last couple of drafts. Answer me this, given your obvious preoccupation with Hine. Do you believe he made good use of those choices? Because really that is the crux of the whole thing. You play the hand you are dealt. The whole reason I posted here was because Diablo, I think it was, expressed faith in CAC's recruiting record over 10 years. I pointed out my opinion that he had been a moderate success. Is six finals appearances in nine years a moderate success? I'd say so. It didn't save ND - with the list that CAC built!

By the way, we've used basically the same facts and interpreted them differently. It's called a difference of opinion. It's a bit like like looking a the official interest rates and you saying, "gee, they're low, I'm voting for Howard" and me looking at the same rates and saying, "gee housing affordability is tough at the moment, I'm voting for Rudd". Some people here obviously find you worth reading, I think you are just a bit full of yourself! As for what I've lied about, I'm not sure to what you are referring, but I can't say as it concerns me.

Emubitter - I worked for a Victorian club on an honorary basis in 99 and 00. My qualifications were/are a trained schoolteacher with a degree in Applied Science (Human Movement). I played in the Footscray Junior Development Squad in 1984 and 1985 in the old days of zoning. Chronic lack of ability and a knee injury (twice reconstructed) made a playing career at a high level impossible. I completed a number of coaching courses (currently level 2 qualified). I was asked to submit a profile on a student at my school by a club prior to the 1998 draft. I gave them a detailed report. I was asked would I be interested in assisting with a little bit of scouting- I had previously worked as a junior coach up to U17 level. I said yes and spent the next 18 months checking on the progress of players who had been overlooked in previous drafts. These were players who the club was looking at as possible rookies. As I said, it was no big deal-just interesting and somewhat time consuming. I did not sit in on meetings discussing list management or recruiting. I was given a detailed list of things to look for and basically ticked boxes. Does it make me an expert? No. Do I consider myself a recruiter? No. Does it entitle me to express an opinion here on Demonland? I think everyone has that entitlement. I hope that answers your question(s). Sorry, I won't disclose the club.