I’ll preface by saying I love big Maxy and everything he gives to the club. I’ve just been getting a niggling feeling that either now or in the future his pursuit of team and individual honours could impede development of our young tall talls. (Up around the 200cm)

Max Heath impresses and Kalani in the future but Gawny’s need to play maximum ruck time sees little opportunity for them to get firsts experience. This also means we are forever looking for another tallish to do fill in work - see JVR, Culley as examples whereas their time could be better spent in their specialist roles. I have even heard talk of using TMac which seems silly to me with the new rules.

Tell me I’m wrong or will the new extended bench help. (Who will be first to post “you’re wrong”

Max Heath is only 23 and in 2 years time when perhaps max retires he should be in his Prime. Kalani is still a kid.

I get the premise of your view, but the bloke is still an AA ruckman, so he stays. We'd be mad to do anything else.

The fact that he keeps getting voted as captain also tells me he is still reveered by the playing group, so again, we be mad to do anything else.

I think Max HEath is a stop-gap, with real potential. The long term succession will be Kalani i think. Especially with the change in rules and his leap - the ruck will be a perfect roll for him. I doubt Max will be around for when Kalani is ready to take the reigns, but that is why we have Max heath.

Edited 4 hours ago4 hr by GS_1905

Max was AA last year. He's the best in the league. As long he is delivering those sort of performances in his position, I don't think he should be looking for give up game time.

When he eventually slows or his output diminishes, it's a different story

On the others who's development Max may have/be stifling:

Heath and White are young

Grundy was roughly the same age as Max, not as good and also couldn't play anywhere but No. 1 ruck

Preuss has done very little at GWS

The other young rucks we recruited weren't up to it

No.

There’s an argument that Max didn’t sacrifice enough in 2023 with Grundy but that erases just how poor of an effort Grundy made up forward and how sloppy he was in the ruck. (And that we didn’t have the right forwards to carry a second ruck).

Very few teams are playing two rucks.

Collingwood don’t even have a mature option on the list to back up Cameron. Not the Dogs. If their main guy goes down they take key backs and chuck them in the ruck.

No one is crying for the lack of opportunity for Ladhams, Reeves and Ned Moyle. All 3 are older and better than Heath.

If they were healthy and demanding a game I’d hope we’d restructure things to give Kentfield or AJ a go in the forward/ruck role. But that’s forward with some ruck, not a second ruck.

Other than Jackson who walked for non-Max reasons, what young ruckman have we had on the list that looked any chance of taking a VFL game by the scruff of the neck? For as long as I can remember now the make-up of our rucks has been Gawn, a senior backup who didn’t play (Daw, Campbell etc) and speculative kids who didn’t progress. The one talent we did have went home to mum.

I think it’s probably just a question of strategy. Jackson was a unicorn, but generally true rucks aren’t going to be able to play with Max, so the club brings in break-glass emergency rucks who are fully developed but less than Max, and focuses its development in other areas. Many clubs’ first choice ruckmen are players from another club who got stuck behind their first choice ruckman. Once Max goes, we’ll probably just grab one of those (think Meek, Fort, Stanley etc) and be just fine until we unearth our next talent.

There is one thing I’d like to see from Gawn this year which is a couple of extra rests on interstate trips, particularly Perth.

We need to look after him and he needs to accept that.

But I’m not concerned at all about Heath’s development, let’s see him dominate at VFL level the way Reeves and Moyle do.

Very pleased to see my worry is not justified- I can sleep again!

Hah, I literally forgot we had Grundy on our list for a year. Kind of definitively proves my point about how most true rucks won’t be able to play with Max, doesn’t it? What a train wreck.

Btw with Marshall not playing this week for the Saints, there seems no reason to introduce Heath to partner Max

Now that Goodwin is gone I don’t believe Gawn has much influence with the new coach so won’t get his own way all the time. I expect Heath will get ample game time this season and if Gawn is selfless he would embrace sharing his role and knowledge.

Not sure that Max will offer the same upside if we play a fast play on style game.

Even then I don't see him holding anyone back. Could and should we have traded him in say 2024. Culture aside (which probably precluded a deal) it should have been considered. A trade at end of 2026 might have some value but I doubt it.

1 hour ago, DeeMee said:

I’ll preface by saying I love big Maxy and everything he gives to the club. I’ve just been getting a niggling feeling that either now or in the future his pursuit of team and individual honours could impede development of our young tall talls. (Up around the 200cm)

Max Heath impresses and Kalani in the future but Gawny’s need to play maximum ruck time sees little opportunity for them to get firsts experience. This also means we are forever looking for another tallish to do fill in work - see JVR, Culley as examples whereas their time could be better spent in their specialist roles. I have even heard talk of using TMac which seems silly to me with the new rules.

Tell me I’m wrong or will the new extended bench help. (Who will be first to post “you’re wrong”

🤦‍♂️

14 minutes ago, John Crow Batty said:

Now that Goodwin is gone I don’t believe Gawn has much influence with the new coach so won’t get his own way all the time.

Nailed it!

And this is another reason (there’s more than one) why the players, particularly the seasoned players, are noticeably more relaxed and happy. It’s palpable.

Previously Max got what Max wanted (especially re the ruck situation) but that seems to have changed, and imho it’s a much-needed and welcome change.

BTW- The OP included the word ‘sacrilege’ in the thread title and that’s understandable since god forbid anyone saying anything that’s not 100% lauding Max. The OP also prefaced the post with a sentence about how great Max is, and while Max is indeed great, we should be able to discuss matters like this.

IMHO

8 minutes ago, Tolstoys Nudge said:

🤦‍♂️

This response is exactly what I’m talking about (above)

duplicate post

Max needs to not play when he has niggling injuries. It does not help the team.

Maybe he could get away with it when he was 25 - not any more.

And he should be rested on occasions when we fly interstate.

I think we will soon see that Heath has more strings to his bow than being purely a ruckman. He is a very good high mark with a big body. He has key position credentials, even if they are used sparingly. He is a very good, long kick. I don't think we will be embarrassed if he has to spend time forward or in defence when Max is still in the ruck.

The fact is that we had two great ruckmen on the list in 2023 and the skipper refused to put much effort into making that two good ruckmen in the team and for him to work out how to kick a couple goals a game and solve our debilitating forward structural issues.

The view that Goodwin should never have pushed for Grundy is spot on but that doesn’t atomise all blame from Max for that sihtshow.

Personally, I would put effort into Heath as a forward ruck for three reasons; rucks that can go forward are increasingly important in a world of rotation limits, Gawn’s successor should be on the list now so let’s play him, and JVR should be given the opportunity to play as a true CHF and work into a game and not be pulled into the ruck.

3 hours ago, DeeMee said:

I’ll preface by saying I love big Maxy and everything he gives to the club. I’ve just been getting a niggling feeling that either now or in the future his pursuit of team and individual honours could impede development of our young tall talls. (Up around the 200cm)

Max Heath impresses and Kalani in the future but Gawny’s need to play maximum ruck time sees little opportunity for them to get firsts experience. This also means we are forever looking for another tallish to do fill in work - see JVR, Culley as examples whereas their time could be better spent in their specialist roles. I have even heard talk of using TMac which seems silly to me with the new rules.

Tell me I’m wrong or will the new extended bench help. (Who will be first to post “you’re wrong”

To even suggest that Max would put himself & individual honours ahead of the club suggests to me that you can’t possibly understand him as a person & a player. To think that after what he’s done for the club after some very tumultuous times is quite staggering. Many times over the last couple of years the only positive press has been Max. Oh & you do know he recieved his 8th All Australia blazer at 33 yrs old. We so need to play our first game ….

3 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

There is one thing I’d like to see from Gawn this year which is a couple of extra rests on interstate trips, particularly Perth.

We need to look after him and he needs to accept that.

But I’m not concerned at all about Heath’s development, let’s see him dominate at VFL level the way Reeves and Moyle do.

If you've watched the Fox Footy interview between Gary and King, King indicated Max would get rests this year.

Again, I think we'll see more Chris Scott type management from King. Geelong have been experts at managing their older players.

No. Senior on field leadership is important to development.

43 minutes ago, rpfc said:

The fact is that we had two great ruckmen on the list in 2023 and the skipper refused to put much effort into making that two good ruckmen in the team and for him to work out how to kick a couple goals a game and solve our debilitating forward structural issues.

The view that Goodwin should never have pushed for Grundy is spot on but that doesn’t atomise all blame from Max for that sihtshow.

Personally, I would put effort into Heath as a forward ruck for three reasons; rucks that can go forward are increasingly important in a world of rotation limits, Gawn’s successor should be on the list now so let’s play him, and JVR should be given the opportunity to play as a true CHF and work into a game and not be pulled into the ruck.

I get the feeling we basically knew during preseason that the Gawndy experiment was doomed to fail.