Who to Trade?

[demoniac 1,336]

The Daniher era is over. Another 10 years and another 10 years without a flag. To be fair Daniher leaves a better list than that left by Neil Blame. But there are still some hard decisons to be made about trading senior players who have talent but don't play at their best or near their best often enough so we can go into the draft with say 3 Top 10 Picks and 1 Top 15 Pick - giving our rebuild a firm foundation when added to the mainly 25 and under talent in the untradeable category below. Also hard decisions need to be made about whether spots on the list occupied by veteran players who aren't going to be part of a flag challenge would be better filled by untried talent.

Of course not everyone nominated below will be delisted or traded, but it is a time for hard decisions not tinkering.

Tradeable And Might Produce A Top 10 pick - Bruce, Johnstone, Green

Simply too much of a gap between their best and worst. Would prefer Bruce and Green to go before Johnstone. If they do stay then they must accept that they have slipped in the pecking order, players like Maclean, Jones and Sylvia who are tough and can get their own ball and use it and are natural born leaders have overtaken them.

Tradeable But Limited Value - Simon Buckley, Ryan Ferguson, Jamar (ruck so may have surprising value), Miller, Moloney (If he can't beat OP then what value is he), Wheatley, Pickett (if kept base contract plus performance weighted - pun intended - contract)

Never seen play - Neville (seems gawn), Weetra (not many first year players delisted)

Untradeable - Neitz, Maclean, Jones, Sylvia, Dunn, Bate, P Johnson, Davey, Rivers, Petterd, Bell, Bartram, Whelan, Frawley, Newton, C Johnson, Nathan Carroll. Robertson & Macdonald & Whelan - deserve to finish in Red and Blue if price is right.

Delist - White (may have some trade value), Yze, Brown, Godfrey, Bizzel, Holland, Ward

Elevate - Neaves, maybe Hughes

As for the rest of the year, its time to play the kids, players such as Yze and Brown can be bought back for a Round 22 farewell in what will also be Danihers farewell game.

Go the Dees!

[beelzebub 23,383]

Demoniac.. a pretty fair appraisal as it stands.. I woud submit though that its a bit rough putting Buckley up as we havent really seen anyhting of him yet.

Id keep for moment as well PJ.. but trade Russian as you have it. Still if a good deal came along and PJ was part of it.. fair go.

Quite frankly Dunn Bell Batram C Johnson even Carroll can be in the mix. we need the best we can get, not the best we've got !!. Happy to put Green Trapper ..Bruce up for grabs. Not saying I want rid of them, just that Im happy to consider anything invoilving them on its merits.

Fergs Miller..yep.. trade them

Wheats i would keep. I still want him as our main kickout man.

The list of who's absolutely utouchable isnt for me as huge as many others !!

[Bobby McKenzie 2,385]

There is just so much wrong with this post!

Firstly, he is no certainty to win the B&F.

Secondly, he never plays a bad game? He plays plenty of bad games. The last two weeks for example. On the stat sheet he never plays a bad game, but in reality, his kicking and decision making has been letting him down for a while now.

Then there is the comparison with Judd... laughable!

Also, I never suggested trading him for an unknown, I'd only trade him for a top 10 pick or an established player.

He is 27, by the time we'll challenge for a flag, he'll most likely be 30... maybe older. Capitalise on his market price now, before it drops dramatically.

And if gut running makes you untouchable, please be sure to ring Simon Godfrey and let him know.

I agree to a certain extent.

I repeat Jaded, Bruce is a CERTAINTY to win our best and fairest. He must be so far ahead already. You talk about decision making and kicking. At least he gets the bloody ball! I never ever suggested he was as good as Judd, only that Judd will be Eagles best and fairest this season. That was the comparison. Are you suggesting seriously that a top ten pick would ALWAYS produce a better player? There have been plenty of flops. Do you want Bruce to be in a stronger team and causing us much pain when he dominates AGAINST us? I'd sooner have him on my side thanks. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion even though I strongly disagree.

TJ wouldn't be top of my list either, but I wouldn't hesitate too much if the right deal came along.

The bottom line is, he won't ever reach his full potential, he is prone to bouts of laziness, and his body is hit and miss.

He is also not getting any younger.

The players I would least like to trade, are those under 23 who have shown really good signs. And I'm not just talking about the obvious ones like McLean and Rivers. I'm talking about Bartram, Bate, Sylvia, Petterd, Frawley etc... They are the future and we now need to build a team around them, not around the likes of Bruce, Green or TJ.

[deestroy08 0]

Reading this thread has made me feel very depressed about what may happen at the end of the year and beyond.

I'd hate to see any of these players (except for a few..) playing in any other colours but the red and blue.

Mind you, my approach to the topic is much more sentimental than logical.

I do agree that Ferguson and Jamar definitely have no place with the MFC anymore..

I'm still very much undecided about the other definites.

My list of untouchables is fairly extensive (try almost the whole team!), but I'm taking a particularly strong stance on guarding PJ, McLean, Bell, Bate, Bartram and Jones.

In my opinion, some of these other suggestions are nothing short of ridiculous.

Trade Davey? Lose more members than we are already going to.

Trade CJ, Buckley? They have been barely given a shot! Ridiculous. I think it was Jaded who said any player under 23 should be untouchable, and I agree to the highest possible degree.

Just a quick question. When do new coaches usually step in and take over the reigns?

Is it before, after, during the trading/delisting process?

I personally would love to see how a new set of hands would mould our team's list.

[mikeod 21]

When thinking about trades - we have to also think of marketability.

IMO Davey is untouchable not just because of his value to the team, but his value to the club in terms of supporters, merchandise and media exposure.

I know many will disagree and think its all solely on talent (which I think Davey has in bucketloads), I would argue a club like Melbourne cannot afford to trade Davey. IMO it would be a Shane Woewodin event revisited - thats the last thing we need.

[Nicho 1]

disagree. davey is a front runner. yes he has pace, yes he can break lines, but he wont win the game if the rest of the team is being beaten. brock could get under and lift the team. michael voss could do that. pavlich or judd can do that. davey is not in the class of these players, and is therefore up for trade if the right deal comes.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_play...2&pid2=1498

here is a link with a stat comparison of the two. yes bate is playing good footy at the moment and dunn hasnt cemented a spot but dunn is 20 and has played 17 games. remember there are people here who want miller retained and he has played 85 or something. bate is not a superstar. he averages 17 disposals and 1 goal per game. that makes him a promising kid. nothing more. miller was called a superstar before he was due. use your words more carefully. the kid has potential, he doesnt even have consistency yet.

Ok ill use my words more carefully. Bate is a superstar.

A Red head clone of Pepples O'Keefe from the Swans.

[beelzebub 23,383]

something I will say regards marketablility ec..and th einferred value as media fodder, good will, merchandising etc.. is..

it doesnt really matter who anyone is !!

it what any one does.,...not who they are.

What is marketable is winning. Start doing that and it wont really matter who is wearing the red and blue they willall become the contemporary heroes. They will then become marketable, they will appear in the minds of supporters etc. Those that went before will be soon relegated to the archives.

I may be totally on my own..I dont CARE who wears the jumper, as long as they are doing what is asked of their talent and that is to play 100% Melbourne footy and win !!.

To say we cant touch so and so because !!!!! is just foolishness to me. who amongst you plays games of chance ...cards etc. ? What do you do with a dud hand.. you fold... you change up .. you refresh those cards.. Do you get all sentimental because you like the look of the jack of spades ?

Well we cant chuck in all the cards, bt we certainly dont need to assign the false value of sentiment to players come the business end of the season. Every one on merit !!

[deanox 9,989]

Ok ill use my words more carefully. Bate is a superstar.

i rate bate, and think he will be a good footballer, and could well be a superstar. but you're wrong. he is not yet a superstar. if you want to rate him as a superstar, you need to rate ben holland (nearly 200 games, and nearly as many goals), jmac (mr consistancy), bell (who has played more games and whos best game to date has been better than bates best game to date) and others. you use the word too lightly. i bet you were one of those people who called stuart diver a hero when he survived the landslide? you've no idea.

[deanox 9,989]

...

i get the feeling that you've decided to take it upon yourself to be illogical and champion a cause just because you think it might even up the discussion or something? there are no reasons why you would defend bruce to the teeth in this discussion. he is tradable without a doubt, if we can get ourselves into a better position with that trade. when was the last time he won a game off his own boot? not recently. and the way you attack other players, including brock mclean is illogical and uninformed. do you have a personal grudge against him? because if not you will realise that brock is a player who can win games off his own boot. bruce can, but hasnt for a while, and at 27 it is getting past him.

consider the careers of bizzel and yze as of today. while biz has produced some honest performances down back this year, he is realistically on his way out, most likely his last year. the game, it seems, has gone past yze. he has struggled for a couple of years now and is really well past it. i would be srprised if he gets more than one year at the end of this season. both players could of been traded a couple of years ago (when they were 27) and we prob would have got great value for them. a couple of years on and we are stuck with them underperforming. if bruces kicking doesnt improve he could well go down this path (laugh if you will but how good was yze 3 years ago?). if we can get a 1st and 2nd round draft pick for bruce, we'd be mad not to take it. the young kids coming through would play with the current group of under 23s for 7+ years, giving us a chance at a premiership that having bruce won't. therin lies the reason why you dont trade mclean. he is part of that next group. even if bruce is a better player in your eyes, bruce will be gone in 5 years, mclean still has 10 at least. maybe 12.

it is not about dont trade my favourite player. it is abut how can we win a premiership.

[Jaded No More 68,974]

consider the careers of bizzel and yze as of today. while biz has produced some honest performances down back this year, he is realistically on his way out, most likely his last year. the game, it seems, has gone past yze. he has struggled for a couple of years now and is really well past it. i would be srprised if he gets more than one year at the end of this season. both players could of been traded a couple of years ago (when they were 27) and we prob would have got great value for them. a couple of years on and we are stuck with them underperforming. if bruces kicking doesnt improve he could well go down this path (laugh if you will but how good was yze 3 years ago?). if we can get a 1st and 2nd round draft pick for bruce, we'd be mad not to take it. the young kids coming through would play with the current group of under 23s for 7+ years, giving us a chance at a premiership that having bruce won't. therin lies the reason why you dont trade mclean. he is part of that next group. even if bruce is a better player in your eyes, bruce will be gone in 5 years, mclean still has 10 at least. maybe 12.

*bows down*

Brilliantly put.

I wonder how many people will read this and it will go right over their head

[beelzebub 23,383]

*bows down*

Brilliantly put.

I wonder how many people will read this and it will go right over their head

A lot unfortunately. Thats not said with ay air of belittleness just the observation that many seem far too blinded by some 'attachment' to this player or that !!

Some here have proferred the trade of the likes of Yze, Bizzel and some of their cohorts for a long time now. We were barked down as fools back then. Funny how the worm turns.

Far too much is implored of players through blinding passion. I dont for one moment suggest to follow this sport without passion just consider the situation we find ourselves in and then adjudicate the realities, not the rose coloured imaginings.

There seems far too many idiotic taboos with respect to football, or more precisely the folloing of it.

You dare not consider playing supossedly elite players in the 2's , they must always come in to their perviously appointed 'reserved' location on the field, doesnt matter that by doing so opens them up to needless injury extensionetc.

and so on and so on.

It troubles me that ideas and views such as expressed here by the likes of Deanox ( and others, just his most recent post delivers the dillema succintly ) will fall on deaf ears. It wil be heard as heresy etc.

Its just common sense, that most lacking of ingredients.

You want to keep your Rose bush lush and beutiful; bountiful and healthy...well you prune liek mad at the righ ttimes and the new growth comes through...and then you do it all over again. Whilst not needing to be quite so brutal to a football team the intent must be the same. For the health and performance of the TEAM personalities and imagined worth must take a back seat to actual contribution thay can make. Sometimes the best contribution possible is by trade. So be it !!

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

*bows down*

Brilliantly put.

I wonder how many people will read this and it will go right over their head

I've noticed that deanox likes to use the number of stats that a player has when assessing their performances.

Well here's some interesting stats:

Daniel Bell - 2007 - A player that many people will agree has had a good season

Average kicks: 8.5

Average handballs: 6.0

Average marks: 5.2

Average tackles: 3.6

Clint Bizzell - 2007 - A player that many people still do not rate

Average kicks: 7.8

Average handballs: 8.0

Average marks: 4.8

Average tackles: 1.0

What does this tell us?

1) Judging a player purely by their statistics is stupid

2) Clint Bizzell is not getting the credit he deserves

[jacey 333]

1) Judging a player purely by their statistics is stupid

2) Clint Bizzell is not getting the credit he deserves

ur obviously a clint fan n u r right that clint doesn't get the credit he deserves. He's done a great job this year but he's not getting any younger.

I genuinely thought we were a top 4 chance at the start of the year n thought clint was gonna be part of it. I was surprised he wasn't in but what boggles the mind was when we were 0-6 or (wheneva clint played), clint was picked instead of the kids.

Bell has been our best defensive playa and is only getting better.

He has beaten his opponent more often then not.

[beelzebub 23,383]

can i just make a general observation...and a suggestion.

When considering a players worth, it has to not only be as they are today but how they might fit into a new remoulded team.

When considering how good or bad they are, do it in relation to League standards, not necesarily agiant their team mates.

Biz ( I admit it ) hasnt been too bad as a pinch hitting back this year, but we arent exactly flying are we. Belly...has alot of promise.. and he plays often like he's got a lot of promise !!!!!! He's not there by a long shot, but has potential. Now if someone offering more comes along..Im happy to trade Bell.

[Jaded No More 68,974]

I've noticed that deanox likes to use the number of stats that a player has when assessing their performances.

I'm still trying to work out what this has to do with the topic?

When did Bell come into discussion? Why are we talking about stats? What the hell is going?

I hate this season, can we just forget it ever happened and start a new season on Friday!

We shall name it "2007 and a half- the year of the youngsters"

[BrownlowBruce 1]

I'm still trying to work out what this has to do with the topic?

When did Bell come into discussion? Why are we talking about stats? What the hell is going?

I hate this season, can we just forget it ever happened and start a new season on Friday!

We shall name it "2007 and a half- the year of the youngsters"

if u want to talk about bell go to the demonland player of the year topic

[ashleighn19 0]

my only query with anything i've read here, is that the general consensus is that we're delisting Jamar (agreed, dont get me wrong!) and possibly trading White. Who then will be our ruckman? PJ's not that good!

p.s completely agree with BrownlowBruce about Bell.. he should not be mentioned in this thread unless he's being added to the "do not touch.. ever!" list!

[beelzebub 23,383]

we wont trade White... not now.. could have last contract ..but !! He has no real value at his age and end of his career.

He does have somethig to offer but his impact is lessening. He might prove invaluable coaching/mentoring say PJ with around the ground play. Id agree Jamar is tradable and we should move to maximise this

[demon946 0]

Lay off Bruce you pathetic magots. He is by far our best player, he trys week in week out and all you do is bag him. I hate all you dogs.

I agree Bruce Almighty, THEY ALL TRY. I do not believe they run out on the ground with the intention to give a half assed effort. We have a really good list and quite frankly I do not see why everybody is panicking?? Brucey can only play where the coach tells him to, I think the coach thinks Bruce may save all our problems all over the ground and let's be honest - he is not a miracle worker?

I am also a huge fan of our 'older cattle' Brown, Yze, Ward, Bizzell, Godfrey Holland too. Especially Ward. Why delist a player who provides pace and still looks like he has plenty of footy left in him, he is so quick and hard and for those who continue to lash out about his kicking he was not dropped below 90% accuaracy with his kicking. And he is clearly good value for money shutting down dangerous forwards week after week. Went on Brown after Bell couldn't do the job and kept him to 6 touches. Granted, Brown kicked 3 however two of those were a result of dodgy umpiring decisions, one Ward was clearly pushed in the back and the second Brown marked the ball over the line but was paid in. Ward has shut down dangerous players in Neon Leon, Eagleton, Grant, Wirrpunda. And why Doggy Brown is not playing senior footy is a joke. He has been brilliant all year. Age. It is pathetic. Age should have no baring on selection if a player can do the job and do it better than some 20 year old. Look at West Coast, they have the second oldest list in the AFL and win premierships - look at Brisbane. Does anybody else agree that we focus too much on age and not on ability and performance? Why are we writing off these 28+ players and suggesting delistings? Don't we have space on the Veterans list and if so who would you whack on it? Got no idea how it works but this is my list:

VETERANS LIST

Ward

Brown

Yze

[Gouga 570]

It all depends on who you can get but...

Delistables:

Brown

Godfrey

Holland

Neville

Ward

Possible Delistables:

Pickett

Tradeables:

Bruce

Green

White

Yze

Bruce, Green & White are worth a second round pick. Yze is worth a third round pick.

I would keep Ferguson, Jamar, Miller and Warnock. All are capable. They are not as good as the tradeables, but they can improve. Bruce, Green, White and Yze are the key to securing a CHF and a CHB.

[Kit Walker 225]

VETERANS LIST

Ward

Brown

Yze

As I understand it, the veteran's list has a maximum of two players who can go on it. Ours at the moment are Neitz and Yze (not sure if he is on there now or will be in 2008).

Probably should be thankful for that otherwise Essendon could have Hird, Lucas, Lloyd and Fletcher all with only half the money counted in the cap!

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I'm still trying to work out what this has to do with the topic?

When did Bell come into discussion? Why are we talking about stats? What the hell is going?

Just re-read it Jaded.

Look what it says next to Bell's name.

Bell has had a very good season and I've always been a fan of his.

However, if you look at the stats, so has Bizzell. Furthermore, much of what deanox said about Bizzell was done so using only statistics.

But more importantly, by just watching the games you will see that Bizzell has done well also.

[tooly 0]

Every player over 29 years old, but Netiz

[Elmag 5]

Trade white - Bulldogs or Saints might want him

[beelzebub 23,383]

Is Neaves ready to step up ?.. some other teams might already have had him blooded...but whilst not wanting to revisit all that...just wondering if anyone else thinks he could step up.