POSTGAME: Rd 21 vs Western Bulldogs

[ElDiablo14 4,999]

5 minutes ago, Strawberry Fields said:

I also liked Disco and Petty back. Imagine having another key forward we could get into the side. 

I tend to think that we missed on McKay in 2022. I was begging for us to throw a massive deal in front of him. I guess I'll never know.

[Jaded No More 68,915]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Spot on.

So according to Jaded our season was completely shot when Brayshaw retired, yet the exact same people were talking about finals only a few weeks ago..

You're either on one side of the fence or not.

I said for weeks that we won’t make finals, but I also said that what I think shouldn’t matter as I want our club to do everything in their power to try and make finals. I’m not sure what is so hard to comprehend about that? 
I also NEVER wanted Gus traded.

As for my Gus comment, let me clarify further for those hard of understanding. 
Losing Gus in isolation is absolutely not why we are where we are. Losing him on the eve of the season however started a chain of events which really compromised our entire season. 
Firstly it meant that we had to rush an underdone Clarry into the team, instead of giving him the time he needed to build his fitness after an interrupted off season. It also meant that once we lost Salem to injury we had no experienced player to cover the role. 
We then lost Trac, which meant we pushed Rivers into the midfield, but we lost that drive off half back because you guessed it, no Gus. Same can be said for losing Bowey for 8 weeks in round 0. 
Gus had the versatility to slot in a multitude of roles, roles that have been hit hard by injuries this season.

And finally, you speak to anyone in the inner sanctum and they’ll tell you that Gus was as much a leader as Gawn and Viney and Lever. Gawn and Gus spent a lot of time bouncing ideas off one another. Losing that spiritual leadership has really hurt the side. Losing a player and teammate they loved so much so suddenly, hurt equally as much. 

So no, Gus alone is not the reason we are where we are. But his sudden loss not only left us an A grader short on the list, it started a chain of events which is very much part of why we are where we are. 
I will challenge any club to go into a season losing a key player without cover, then losing their best midfielder to injury while their other best midfielder is battling with injury. Take Cripps and Walsh out of Carlton, Bont and Libba out of the Dogs etc etc and they would struggle. 
 

The reality is that in a competition this close, everything matters. If instead of us losing Gus the Pies lost Hill 10 minutes into finals, and Brisbane don’t lose Ashcroft to an ACL, well I reckon the premiership history book is written differently. 

[dazzledavey36 54,944]

1 minute ago, Jaded No More said:

I said for weeks that we won’t make finals, but I also said that what I think shouldn’t matter as I want our club to do everything in their power to try and make finals. I’m not sure what is so hard to comprehend about that? 
I also NEVER wanted Gus traded.

As for my Gus comment, let me clarify further for those hard of understanding. 
Losing Gus in isolation is absolutely not why we are where we are. Losing him on the eve of the season however started a chain of events which really compromised our entire season. 
Firstly it meant that we had to rush an underdone Clarry into the team, instead of giving him the time he needed to build his fitness after an interrupted off season. It also meant that once we lost Salem to injury we had no experienced player to cover the role. 
We then lost Trac, which meant we pushed Rivers into the midfield, but we lost that drive off half back because you guessed it, no Gus. Same can be said for losing Bowey for 8 weeks in round 0. 
Gus had the versatility to slot in a multitude of roles, roles that have been hit hard by injuries this season.

And finally, you speak to anyone in the inner sanctum and they’ll tell you that Gus was as much a leader as Gawn and Viney and Lever. Gawn and Gus spent a lot of time bouncing ideas off one another. Losing that spiritual leadership has really hurt the side. Losing a player and teammate they loved so much so suddenly, hurt equally as much. 

So no, Gus alone is not the reason we are where we are. But his sudden loss not only left us an A grader short on the list, it started a chain of events which is very much part of why we are where we are. 
I will challenge any club to go into a season losing a key player without cover, then losing their best midfielder to injury while their other best midfielder is battling with injury. Take Cripps and Walsh out of Carlton, Bont and Libba out of the Dogs etc etc and they would struggle. 
 

The reality is that in a competition this close, everything matters. If instead of us losing Gus the Pies lost Hill 10 minutes into finals, and Brisbane don’t lose Ashcroft to an ACL, well I reckon the premiership history book is written differently. 

Richmond lost Rance to an ACL injury round 2 2019. They went on to win a premiership that year. They had no one to cover the calibre of his talent and especially as he was their spiritual leader but they had the soliders and system in place to cover him.

We're making excuses for the sake of it.

Had we won the those close game in Carlton, Brisbane and GWS this whole Brayshaw discussion wouldn't even be brought up. We'd be sitting at 13 wins ready to attack finals.

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,294]

13 minutes ago, dees189227 said:

Any update on may yet? I'm sure Tom morris is sniffing outside the hospital

He hasn't been right all year after just one week off from broken ribs. I doubt it's a new injury but who knows.

If they don't put him on ice for the season it's [censored] madness.

Get Petty back for the rest of the year to get his confidence back and play Jeffo forward.

We need to prepare for life without SMay probably in next 2 years.

[Adam The God 30,259]

1 minute ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Richmond lost Rance to an ACL injury round 2 2019. They went on to win a premiership that year. They had no one to cover the calibre of his talent and especially as he was their spiritual leader but they had the soliders and system in place to cover him.

We're making excuses for the sake of it.

Had we won the those close game in Carlton, Brisbane and GWS this whole Brayshaw discussion wouldn't even be brought up. We'd be sitting at 13 wins ready to attack finals.

I agree to an extent, but midfielders win flags. Take Martin out and they don't win that flag.

Likewise, take May or Lever out, but keep Trac, and I reckon we'd be better off. 

But anyway, we'll never know.

[Where Demons Dare 206]

As long as we beat the Pies in our last game of the season I can stomach last nights putrid loss.

[Colm 2,155]

8 hours ago, Hellfire Dub said:

Colm, is this just the result of going for broke in trying to trade up for Reid and then being left in an awkward spot?  Who else were were going for around that pick because they travelled over to meet him so the club were serious about bringing him in.  I think it's much too early to write him off and I like his aggression 

 

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

We wanted Reid

Certainly not writing the Kolt off at all. 
Yes both of ye are probably right, we pushed all our chips in on Reid and lost. Hindsight is 20/20 but maybe we should have had a deal in place for Reid before trading away valuable picks. 

[dees189227 12,394]

19 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

What do mean outside the hospital, that vulture will be disguised as a nursing aide.

 

Ha yeah good point. Sometimes I wonder if he resorts to paying staff for info

[Jaded No More 68,915]

10 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Richmond lost Rance to an ACL injury round 2 2019. They went on to win a premiership that year. They had no one to cover the calibre of his talent and especially as he was their spiritual leader but they had the soliders and system in place to cover him.

We're making excuses for the sake of it.

Had we won the those close game in Carlton, Brisbane and GWS this whole Brayshaw discussion wouldn't even be brought up. We'd be sitting at 13 wins ready to attack finals.

You completely missed my point. 
Anyway, I am sure having one of Gus or Trac or a fit Clarry in any of the 3 games you mentioned above would have made a difference to the margin. 
 

[Pirlo 813]

42 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

and even thought he is massively underrated on here, Spargo

I appreciate the sentiment of your post, but lets not pretend that Spargo didn't spend the last six weeks of last season at Casey.

He's a good pressure player usually, but he kicked 11 in 14 last season, 10 in 24 the year before and just 18 in 25 the season we won the flag. That's not game changing.

[Roost it far 8,276]

10 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

I thought we were pathetic.

Fritta played his best game for ages, which was welcome.

We seemed far more fatigued than them. A stack load of regulation tackles missed that led to scores against. Our midfield murdered for most of the night.

I was very envious of how well their tall forwards marked the ball, in comparison to our forwards. But the thing that the Bulldogs do regularly and I think we managed once for an entire half, is kick the ball to the advantage of our forwards.

Again, our ball movement has basically gone back into its shell. Did we waste half a year trying to work on our transition game? Our lack of dare was really disappointing. And I wanted to see Turner play forward, because he's a great mark.

We have a lot of work to do over the summer and it'll be a fascinating watch on McQualter.

This.....We've been missing tackles for awhile now which I find very frustrating. Clearly our confidence is way down and you and others have pointed out we look fatigued. Couple of concerns for mine remain....our continued over reliance on May and Gawn. I'm just hoping Stephen May can get his body right but it's a massive worry relying on that. Oliver needs to spend the preseason beside Petracca. He don't get 6 weeks off if I'm the club. We all want more mids, myself included but Maxy needs some back up and JVR needs to play forward. How do we make that happen? Or is JVR being groomed long term as a ruck/forward because that's what it looks like to me. It's going to be a fascinating off season because we need to bring in youngsters from the top end of the draft but I'd hazard a guess there's a few other clubs thinking the same. 

Edited August 2 by Roost it far

[dees189227 12,394]

6 minutes ago, Where Demons Dare said:

As long as we beat the Pies in our last game of the season I can stomach last nights putrid loss.

I'm already thinking of avoiding that game, especially if they'll play finals. I just can't sit there and stomach it knowing our seasons done.

Plus after the past 2 games against them, who knows who they'll injure

[spirit of norm smith 16,459]

Questions. 

1- what is our new style of play - it’s become boring at times - compared to the Dogs for example 

Dogs. Fast. Direct. Waves.  Running.  
Dees. Slow. Indirect. Wide. Static. 

Though when we go more direct, it’s actually positive amd leads to goals.  Surprise!! 
 

2- Rock solid defence? Not anymore. Freo and the Dogs had a party.  Giants kicked goals in bursts.  Lever and McDonald are leaking goals. Not sure they are agile enough anymore.  Lever especially seeks to struggle with a 1-1 contest. And his loose handball was horrible.  McDonald cost us two goals in the 1sr qtr. 

3. Tackling ineffective…we are letting players get handballs away to keep the ball moving. Certainly obvious last night and the prior few weeks v Freo and GWS.  Clearances now being lost. That WAS our strength!?!?! 
 

4. Depth in the list.  Loss of 4/5 players and Brayshaw retirement.  Too many passengers getting games. I think our lack of depth has hurt our desperation and desire. Sparrow. Bowey. Chandler. Salem. All have really underperformed but get match after match. Finally we saw Sparrow dropped and he reacted. 

5. Goodwin. Coaching style and strategy or lack therein. Enough said on other posts.  We simply cannot say we are learning and we are working on forward connection   Accountability?!?!!!

 

[BAMF 4,353]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

We wanted Reid

Good point. Hard to know how close we were to landing him without knowing the conversations taking place. 

You would assume that we knew the asking price before trading up though?

[dazzledavey36 54,944]

32 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

I agree to an extent, but midfielders win flags. Take Martin out and they don't win that flag.

Likewise, take May or Lever out, but keep Trac, and I reckon we'd be better off. 

But anyway, we'll never know.

Defence wins premierships and we've seen so many coaches harp on about this. 

We were the number rated the 1 defensive team in the whole competition back in 2021 as were Collingwood last year who were top 2.

With all due respect to Brayshaw, he's no where near the calibre of talent to Dusty and Petracca. 

 

[forever demons 2,220]

14 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Questions. 

1- what is our new style of play - it’s become boring at times - compared to the Dogs for example 

Dogs. Fast. Direct. Waves.  Running.  
Dees. Slow. Indirect. Wide. Static. 

Though when we go more direct, it’s actually positive amd leads to goals.  Surprise!! 
 

2- Rock solid defence? Not anymore. Freo and the Dogs had a party.  Giants kicked goals in bursts.  Lever and McDonald are leaking goals. Not sure they are agile enough anymore.  Lever especially seeks to struggle with a 1-1 contest. And his loose handball was horrible.  McDonald cost us two goals in the 1sr qtr. 

3. Tackling ineffective…we are letting players get handballs away to keep the ball moving. Certainly obvious last night and the prior few weeks v Freo and GWS.  Clearances now being lost. That WAS our strength!?!?! 
 

4. Depth in the list.  Loss of 4/5 players and Brayshaw retirement.  Too many passengers getting games. I think our lack of depth has hurt our desperation and desire. Sparrow. Bowey. Chandler. Salem. All have really underperformed but get match after match. Finally we saw Sparrow dropped and he reacted. 

5. Goodwin. Coaching style and strategy or lack therein. Enough said on other posts.  We simply cannot say we are learning and we are working on forward connection   Accountability?!?!!!

 

Accountability?try responsability thyats whats lacking

[Adam The God 30,259]

5 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Defence wins premierships and we've seen so many coaches harp on about this. 

We were the number rated the 1 defensive team in the whole competition back in 2021 as were Collingwood last year who were top 2.

With all due respect to Brayshaw, he's no where near the calibre of talent to Dusty and Petracca. 

 

But we're missing Trac as well. He only played in that Carlton loss. Had he played against Brisbane and GWS, who knows.

I agree defence wins premierships, but defence is based on system and personnel to an extent.

So the system could cover for a defender in that system, but the team cannot cover the loss of contest from midfield.

The midfield was deplorable for most of last night, and has been horrible for a while now.

If we'd had an ability to throw Trac in there the last few weeks, we'd have been able to stem the flow.

Edited August 2 by Binmans PA

[BAMF 4,353]

33 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Richmond lost Rance to an ACL injury round 2 2019. They went on to win a premiership that year. They had no one to cover the calibre of his talent and especially as he was their spiritual leader but they had the soliders and system in place to cover him.

We're making excuses for the sake of it.

Had we won the those close game in Carlton, Brisbane and GWS this whole Brayshaw discussion wouldn't even be brought up. We'd be sitting at 13 wins ready to attack finals.

I agree. Yeah, we have been hit by injuries, but all clubs lose players throughout the year. Our list of players who are out isnt that high. It's our lack of depth that is really concerning.

If we had better depth maybe some players who are out of form would be listed on the injury list?

[Roost it far 8,276]

1 minute ago, Binmans PA said:

But we're missing Trac as well. He only played in that Carlton loss. Had he played against Brisbane and GWS, who knows.

I agree defence wins premierships, but defence is based on system and personnel to an extent.

So the system could cover for a defender in that system, but the team cannot cover the loss of contest from midfield.

The midfield was deplorable for most of last night, and has been horrible for a while now.

Imagine the straits Carlton would be in if Cripps went down.

[640MD 3,376]

10 hours ago, ElDiablo14 said:

We also need to be ruthless in big decisions about some veteran players:

BBB - retire

Shache - delisted 

Hunter - delisted

Salem - trade

Sparrow - not sure what to do with him

McAdam - same as above 

Tommo - gone to a new club 

Add in Smith and Brayshaw

thats possibly 9 changes in personnel 

too many in the one year. We need targeted players for future on next year positions.

you also need experience and players for newbies to copy in terms of training and game preparation.

5 or 6 would be great. IMV

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

35 minutes ago, Pirlo said:

I appreciate the sentiment of your post, but lets not pretend that Spargo didn't spend the last six weeks of last season at Casey.

He's a good pressure player usually, but he kicked 11 in 14 last season, 10 in 24 the year before and just 18 in 25 the season we won the flag. That's not game changing.

Spargo was more than goal kicking, his entry into the 50 was very good, all players are allowed a drop in form.

[Roost it far 8,276]

1 hour ago, Jaded No More said:

I said for weeks that we won’t make finals, but I also said that what I think shouldn’t matter as I want our club to do everything in their power to try and make finals. I’m not sure what is so hard to comprehend about that? 
I also NEVER wanted Gus traded.

As for my Gus comment, let me clarify further for those hard of understanding. 
Losing Gus in isolation is absolutely not why we are where we are. Losing him on the eve of the season however started a chain of events which really compromised our entire season. 
Firstly it meant that we had to rush an underdone Clarry into the team, instead of giving him the time he needed to build his fitness after an interrupted off season. It also meant that once we lost Salem to injury we had no experienced player to cover the role. 
We then lost Trac, which meant we pushed Rivers into the midfield, but we lost that drive off half back because you guessed it, no Gus. Same can be said for losing Bowey for 8 weeks in round 0. 
Gus had the versatility to slot in a multitude of roles, roles that have been hit hard by injuries this season.

And finally, you speak to anyone in the inner sanctum and they’ll tell you that Gus was as much a leader as Gawn and Viney and Lever. Gawn and Gus spent a lot of time bouncing ideas off one another. Losing that spiritual leadership has really hurt the side. Losing a player and teammate they loved so much so suddenly, hurt equally as much. 

So no, Gus alone is not the reason we are where we are. But his sudden loss not only left us an A grader short on the list, it started a chain of events which is very much part of why we are where we are. 
I will challenge any club to go into a season losing a key player without cover, then losing their best midfielder to injury while their other best midfielder is battling with injury. Take Cripps and Walsh out of Carlton, Bont and Libba out of the Dogs etc etc and they would struggle. 
 

The reality is that in a competition this close, everything matters. If instead of us losing Gus the Pies lost Hill 10 minutes into finals, and Brisbane don’t lose Ashcroft to an ACL, well I reckon the premiership history book is written differently. 

Thanks for writing that, I was thinking it but couldn't be bothered with all the typing. 

[Maldonboy38 6,403]

10 hours ago, Pirlo said:

Do you mean Rivers? Viney has absolutely toiled most of the year compared to his high standards. He's running like his plantar fasciitis is back.

Rivers has been excellent once he moved into the midfield. Viney has had some plodding games, but he has also had a heap of good ones, and is one player who has rarely lost his intensity. 

[Pirlo 813]

11 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Spargo was more than goal kicking, his entry into the 50 was very good, all players are allowed a drop in form.

He wasn't getting the ball. He was averaging 10 touches and 1 tackle a game last season. I simply refuse to believe that losing him has led to "all lines being decimated".

[Lord Travis 10,730]

1 hour ago, ElDiablo14 said:

I tend to think that we missed on McKay in 2022. I was begging for us to throw a massive deal in front of him. I guess I'll never know.

We did. He stayed at Carlton regardless on a million a year anyway. We've tried unsuccessfully luring several key forwards the past two off seasons. 

Give me an elite midfielder instead please!