5 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Harley Reid has a more well rounded game than Clarry as it stands. 

Clarry hasn't improved his week areas, regardless of how good his contest work is.

Many people are blinded by their love for one individual. 

Might just be the best thing for Clayton and us long term. 

Everyone thought a Collingwood would fall off a cliff once Treloar left and Stephenson (to a lesser degree). 

We've shown that we actually function better as a side without another inside specialist in the side. 

Why don't we wait and see, eh? 

Your obsession with untried 18 year olds is ridiculous. You were one of the posters last year claiming this draft would be a super draft when most were saying that's the rhetoric every year.

You also loved Weideman at draft time. You love potential, not actual proven elite AFL talent.

To say Reid has a more rounded game than Oliver when he's never played an AFL game is frankly laughable.

Having said that, in the long run, we may well be better off trading out Clarry and in Reid. But FMD, Reid's game is more rounded 🤦

24 minutes ago, mo64 said:

off-field issues are reparable

This is a place of opinions, so you’re entitled to yours.
 

My opinion is you and I probably know less than 10% of what has transpired/is transpiring and we’re therefore incapable of reliably diagnosing what state of ‘repair’ the relationship is in.

I’ll defer my trust to those that known more than 10% of what is going on.

I just want to officially be on the record, and have written it down somewhere, that there’s a lot of talk about the work Collingwood have done with De Goey floating about - as if he’s suddenly been cured.

I’m not buying it. 

Literally in the waiting room to get a vasectomy. I’m not sure what’s going to hurt more 😭

4 minutes ago, Vitamin Dee said:

Literally in the waiting room to get a vasectomy. I’m not sure what’s going to hurt more 😭

If you’re a handy ex-player with 100 games under your belt, I’d advise you to reconsider. We may need you the way this off-season is playing out.

22 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

They’re a statistical anomaly 

Are we going to plan our future around a club that has just won a flag by winning finals by a combined total of 12 points and a lot of luck? I hope not 

An elite midfield is and always has been the most important element of being successful. It’s why we started our build with the midfield. 

I hope like hell that we don’t bend over and that we get a seriously good deal and at least one established player out of this disastrous turn of events. Draft picks that may or may not come good won’t cut it for mine. 
 

If we don’t win another flag with this current list in front of our home crowd at our home ground, this entire era will be a wasted opportunity. 

Supporting this club is exhausting 

Well, let's go back to 2022 then. Geelong also won it without an elite midfield IMV.

I agree with your last point about future success, but we can't answer that yet.

17 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

I just want to officially be on the record, and have written it down somewhere, that there’s a lot of talk about the work Collingwood have done with De Goey floating about - as if he’s suddenly been cured.

I’m not buying it. 

Think about West Coast and Ben Cousins. They got a premiership with him, but their culture was a disaster and they never managed to win another.

If Clarry threatens the culture, and we are not best placed to analyse this, the club is, then he has to go.

12 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

Your obsession with untried 18 year olds is ridiculous. You were one of the posters last year claiming this draft would be a super draft when most were saying that's the rhetoric every year.

You also loved Weideman at draft time. You love potential, not actual proven elite AFL talent.

To say Reid has a more rounded game than Oliver when he's never played an AFL game is frankly laughable.

Having said that, in the long run, we may well be better off trading out Clarry and in Reid. But FMD, Reid's game is more rounded 🤦

I understand completely that we can never compare potential with known talent but it’s not like the known quantities (Trac/Clarry/Viney/Max) are suddenly going to improve their ball use. Chocco was bought in specifically to focus on this skill, Grundy has stated he’s never done so much kicking work in his life.

Also, many of the elite TAC guys have been training and preparing like AFL players for years leading into the draft, the jump is probably not as big as it once was. We’ve seen multiple first year players (Daicos/Ashcroft) transform their respective sides from year one.

If the Clarry stuff ends up going anywhere and we have the chance to snag 3 top 10 kids or 2 and a known player, I believe we’ll be much better for it in the medium term. I mean Trac has been parked in the forward half plugging a hole for half the year, he’s an immediate replacement for Clarry and you know he’ll be breathing fire in ‘24.
 

 

38 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

I don't think it's about being seduced by picks this time mate. It's about maintaining the culture that the club has tried so hard to foster, and maximising what is a dreadfully sorry and sad situation. 

Clarry is my favourite player, I'm devastated. But we've got the picks this year to work a deal that could rejuvenate our list.

The other thing not being talked about is the potential dramatic impact not having Clarry in our midfield will have on our game style. 

Collingwood have shown you don't need an elite midfield to win a flag. They've bucked the trend in that regard.

I trust JT, Lamb and the broader club to do what's right for the MFC here.

As gut wrenching as that is. I suspect many of us are so strongly bonded to Clarry because we waited so long for an elite midfielder and then we got him, he helped us win a flag and now here we are...

Well said.

16 minutes ago, Vitamin Dee said:

Literally in the waiting room to get a vasectomy. I’m not sure what’s going to hurt more 😭

you can DIY with 2 bricks.

22 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

Your obsession with untried 18 year olds is ridiculous. You were one of the posters last year claiming this draft would be a super draft when most were saying that's the rhetoric every year.

You also loved Weideman at draft time. You love potential, not actual proven elite AFL talent.

To say Reid has a more rounded game than Oliver when he's never played an AFL game is frankly laughable.

Having said that, in the long run, we may well be better off trading out Clarry and in Reid. But FMD, Reid's game is more rounded 🤦

The draft hasn't even happened and there's plenty of top end talent in the top 10 so what are you on about?

I thought Weideman had potential to be something, I was wrong. I'm okay with that. Are you?

Reid has a more well rounded game than Oliver, yes. That's my opinion. And it's part of why he's going number 1.

He possess AFL level traits that see him play forward and back and at VFL level, those traits were on show.

Fine that you disagree.

Go back to banging on about how impenetrable our game-plan is compared to that of this years Premiers, it suits you.

1 hour ago, Jaded No More said:

You didn’t complain in 2021 when he won a flag and our B&F and the coaches award. 
 

A lot of revisionism on this board based off this season where he missed 10 weeks, and has also carried a knee injury heading into finals. 
He was brilliant prior to his injury. Short memories. 

I didn’t complain, but it doesn’t mean I wasn’t cognisant of this issue and the goalposts have now shifted.

Your apparent lack of awareness doesn’t equate to revision.

I’m not questioning his brilliance, but in a very basic Moneyball style assessment his brilliance is not translating to ultimate team success.

Im for it - cut & run.

9 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

Well, let's go back to 2022 then. Geelong also won it without an elite midfield IMV.

I agree with your last point about future success, but we can't answer that yet.

You don’t think Selwood, Danger, Duncan and Guthrie are elite? 
They were old as balls, but they were still elite. 

How do you rate a starting midfield of Gawn, Trac, Viney and Sparrow? Because that’s probably the 2024 midfield we are looking at. Now let’s factor in an injury to say Viney, then how does that midfield look?

 

If you are really confident and want to prove you have the inside info @Nudge, easy way to do it is message it to Demonland or a mod who will keep it hidden and when the time comes they can reveal that you had the info, otherwise you can’t 100% prove you knew it was played X etc.

 

4 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

The draft hasn't even happened and there's plenty of top end talent in the top 10 so what are you on about?

I thought Weideman had potential to be something, I was wrong. I'm okay with that. Are you?

Reid has a more well rounded game than Oliver, yes. That's my opinion. And it's part of why he's going number 1.

He possess AFL level traits that see him play forward and back and at VFL level, those traits were on show.

Fine that you disagree.

Go back to banging on about how impenetrable our game-plan is compared to that of this years Premiers, it suits you.

Yeah, you're talking AFL level traits, and clearly that's true. But Oliver has shown over 8 years, elite AFL. Not just AFL level traits. He has been there, done that. He has won 1 (2?) AFLCA awards, an award far more prestigious than the Brownlow. He won a BnF in a flag year. He's been a multiple AA.

Reid has not played a single AFL game yet. Someone earlier in the thread rightly said he could well turn out to be another Rowell, or, which is rhe lottery in draft picks, he could turn out to be the next Dusty, with a more rounded game than Clarry.

But you can't say that now and expect people to agree with you. You need to actually see it. How many top draft picks have been heralded as the next best thing. At the end of the day, drafting is a lottery.

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I genuinely thought GWS were going to be bottom 4 this year after losing their midfield brutes Tarranto and Hopper..

The big bodied mid era is coming to a close. The game will be dominated by the likes of Butters and Daicos for the next decade.

 

6 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

You don’t think Selwood, Danger, Duncan and Guthrie are elite? 
They were old as balls, but they were still elite. 

How do you rate a starting midfield of Gawn, Trac, Viney and Sparrow? Because that’s probably the 2024 midfield we are looking at. Now let’s factor in an injury to say Viney, then how does that midfield look?

 

Selwood, Danger were elite with elite years from Guthrie and Duncan. We could absolutely get that out of Viney, Petracca, Rivers and Sparrow.

1 minute ago, MrFreeze said:

The big bodied mid era is coming to a close. The game will be dominated by the likes of Butters and Daicos for the next decade.

 

Who knows. The game changes so quickly. It's just as likely to revert back to super defensive soon enough.

6 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

The only way you'd lose out on this is if it were to cause unrest within the group, club and individual. 

That would be a disaster. 

But if everyone was okay with it and we received what we should in way of picks, which would see us land Reid and and a McKertcher... 

We'd be better off as a team whether people want to hear that or not. 

Reid can play everywhere and displays exactly the same level of competitiveness and contested ball winning ability as Clayton. He's further advanced than Clayton at the same age and already possesses traits that Clayton doesn't. 

McKertcher is the class, user and runner we need so desperately for that link and connection. 

I'll be content if Clayton stays and can get help and endeavour to improve other aspects of his game. But I definitely won't be upset if all parties come to an agreement and believe it's best for club and individual. 

Correction 'Reid has played zero AFL games and may or may not live up to the hype'

1 hour ago, Jaded No More said:

You didn’t complain in 2021 when he won a flag and our B&F and the coaches award. 
 

A lot of revisionism on this board based off this season where he missed 10 weeks, and has also carried a knee injury heading into finals. 
He was brilliant prior to his injury. Short memories. 

Was he?

He got only 6 Brownlow votes for the games before injury.   Without checking I'm not sure he got many BOG coaches votes prior to injury.

The reports about him leaving hospital, going for a run, self tattooing, going to an outside physio aren't examples of a team player. 

A lot has changed since 2021.  Then he adopted for himself the motto 'to be a better teammate'.  By various accounts that hasn't been the case in more recent times. 

Twitter and Reddit:

The Dee's are into Lynch or Ben M.

Demonland: 

We are into no body and will use the draft.

Then Demonland:

I have news - our target will be made public shortly.

Then Demonland after the Oliver story 'broke':

See I told you there would be news (just not the news of the target as claimed).

My bold prediction:

At some stage in the future there will be news! Told you!

4 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

Yeah, you're talking AFL level traits, and clearly that's true. But Oliver has shown over 8 years, elite AFL. Not just AFL level traits. He has been there, done that. He has won 1 (2?) AFLCA awards, an award far more prestigious than the Brownlow. He won a BnF in a flag year. He's been a multiple AA.

Reid has not played a single AFL game yet. Someone earlier in the thread rightly said he could well turn out to be another Rowell, or, which is rhe lottery in draft picks, he could turn out to be the next Dusty, with a more rounded game than Clarry.

But you can't say that now and expect people to agree with you. You need to actually see it. How many top draft picks have been heralded as the next best thing. At the end of the day, drafting is a lottery.

Mate, none of what I'm arguing has anything to do with Clayton's strengths. He is one of the best at the coalface that I've seen and of course all of his individual accolades are well deserved.

I'm trying to project what a hypothetical side would look like without Oliver, and I'm of the opinion that we would be fine without Clayton if Reid and McKertcher came in. I'm spit-balling.

All things have an element of risk attached. Even picking Clayton was a risk. And maybe some of that risk involved is rearing its head at the moment?

Also, whoever compared Rowell with Reid has no idea I'm sorry. And if you're agreeing then it's going to be impossible to talk with you.

Reid is a completely different player to Rowell and aside from their shared contested ball winning ability, Reid is far superior in just about every facet of the game as well as his physical makeup.

What's most important here is what the player, (whether that be Reid or Oliver) would do to help our chances at winning another flag. 

Now I'm arguing that we would be no worse off with Clayton gone and Reid playing and down the line, we'd be better off. Especially if we landed McKertcher or Duursma with the other pick. Laugh all you want but as we've seen that our 'star-studded midfield' haven't exactly been setting the world on fire as a unit have they?  So you can gush over all the individual accolades Clayton has won, but the fact is we've won only the single flag and we've had the most talented list in the comp just about for the past three seasons. 

As far as how valuable Clayton is to our 'team performance', I think he is grossly overrated given the sheer amount of players we have who have the same strengths and weaknesses as him. As an individual? Arguably the best contested mid in the comp. Which is more important to you?

Something has to be shaken up if we want another flag.

 

 

17 minutes ago, MrFreeze said:

The big bodied mid era is coming to a close. The game will be dominated by the likes of Butters and Daicos for the next decade.

 

The game changes with what ever works each year. It's just as possible shut down or tall dominant lists become the fashion.

Honestly Essendon under Knights were pretty similar to the pies this year other than the pies being way better at transition. 

The response will be Sydney esque shut down again for mine.

4 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Was he?

He got only 6 Brownlow votes for the games before injury.   Without checking I'm not sure he got many BOG coaches votes prior to injury.

The reports about him leaving hospital, going for a run, self tattooing, going to an outside physio aren't examples of a team player. 

A lot has changed since 2021.  Then he adopted for himself the motto 'to be a better teammate'.  By various accounts that hasn't been the case in more recent times. 

Don't bother, she's blinded by her infatuation.

55 minutes ago, The Jackson FIX said:

This is a place of opinions, so you’re entitled to yours.
 

My opinion is you and I probably know less than 10% of what has transpired/is transpiring and we’re therefore incapable of reliably diagnosing what state of ‘repair’ the relationship is in.

I’ll defer my trust to those that known more than 10% of what is going on.

What about those that claim to know more than 10% because they send emails to the club and they don't respond?