It's the Culture

[TRIGON 4,792]

16 hours ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

1) I'm guessing you aren't a fan of TISM.
2) By chance, how old is your cousin? And was he able to pierce the fourth wall between fiction and living reality?
 

 

👏SPLENDID

[58er 6,820]

18 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

Said the same thing to a bloke at work today.

But that doesn't stop me thinking as a club we got sucked into drinking the bathwater again.
Cause that's in our culture.
As is losing games when we're favourites.

And from Premiers to out in straight sets is a Melbourne thing to do.

I'm just thankful now that Fritta kicked those 2 in a minute during the 3rd in the granny last year.
We were so close to a GF choke it wasn't funny.

How many straight sets have Melb gone out in ?.

This might be the first time  under the present Finals system that this has happened I believe so why is it a "Melb thing to do".

And events have proved that in the Granny we were not choking but taking control of the game by the scruff of the neck. 

So we are now back to pre 2021 standards of losing as favourites status!Lets wait and see in thr coming years.

What  is more evident  from the last 14 rounds is that we never had a full list free of injuries and recovery from injury was hampering some players plus some were played when injured. Our fade outs seemed too consistent which was also hampered by our Selectors not changing the team and giving some younger players games to assess their form in the AFL.

The loyalty shown to our 2021 heroes whilst admirable was not in the best interests of this season as a whole as we don't have any new ready made younger players for the team prepared for 2023. 

Recruiting and trading is vital in the KPF plus running mids and flankers to bolster our speed. 

We are still in the Window for flags land need to learn from this season. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TRIGON said:

👏SPLENDID

BAAAAAAAH! 

[praha 11,253]

1 hour ago, 58er said:

How many straight sets have Melb gone out in ?.

This might be the first time  under the present Finals system that this has happened I believe so why is it a "Melb thing to do".

And events have proved that in the Granny we were not choking but taking control of the game by the scruff of the neck. 

So we are now back to pre 2021 standards of losing as favourites status!Lets wait and see in thr coming years.

What  is more evident  from the last 14 rounds is that we never had a full list free of injuries and recovery from injury was hampering some players plus some were played when injured. Our fade outs seemed too consistent which was also hampered by our Selectors not changing the team and giving some younger players games to assess their form in the AFL.

The loyalty shown to our 2021 heroes whilst admirable was not in the best interests of this season as a whole as we don't have any new ready made younger players for the team prepared for 2023. 

Recruiting and trading is vital in the KPF plus running mids and flankers to bolster our speed. 

We are still in the Window for flags land need to learn from this season. 

It's "Melbourne" in the sense that we had two home finals against interstate teams, lost them both, and couldn't even get to the Prelim after starting the season 10-0.

Straight set exits actually aren't that common. And certainly not from teams only at the start of their premiership window. Most of the time when it's happened it's happened towards the end. 

Hawthorn for example were staring down the barrel of a straight sets exit in 2015 after being comfortably beaten by the Eagles in the QF. They bounced back in the semi and beat Freo in the Prelim in their second Perth trip in as many weeks. They demolished WC in the GF who had barely travelled. After the QF Hawthorn were bruised and looked really quite bad in that game. Every wrote them off. They turned it around in 7 days.

Melbourne isn't the only team with sore bodies and a tough fixture. 

Last year was great but we won't get much respect from the wider football community until we beat the big boys on the MCG in front of 70k. We choked consistently this year but then looked a million bucks whenever we played in completely different cities.

Being the best team around when barely anyone can watch you live is great until you actually start having to compete against the crowd. As soon as people started showing up and making noise, we choked. On Friday, in typical Melbourne fashion, we'd kick a goal and the "Make some noise" clips would flash on the big screen. The crowd would roar and the team's response was to drop marks and get beaten in contests despite outnumbering the Lions players. Worst was when the scoreboard was flashing, everyone was screaming, and Gawn tapped it down Zorko's throat... classic!

No doubt injuries, fitness, coaching all played a role but good teams find ways to win. That we put to bed most Melbourne stereotypes in a year when we were in lockdown, only to return to being the league's whipping boy as soon as we can attend games again, is distinctively "Melbourne".

Edited September 13, 2022 by praha

[58er 6,820]

4 hours ago, praha said:

It's "Melbourne" in the sense that we had two home finals against interstate teams, lost them both, and couldn't even get to the Prelim after starting the season 10-0.

Straight set exits actually aren't that common. And certainly not from teams only at the start of their premiership window. Most of the time when it's happened it's happened towards the end. 

Hawthorn for example were staring down the barrel of a straight sets exit in 2015 after being comfortably beaten by the Eagles in the QF. They bounced back in the semi and beat Freo in the Prelim in their second Perth trip in as many weeks. They demolished WC in the GF who had barely travelled. After the QF Hawthorn were bruised and looked really quite bad in that game. Every wrote them off. They turned it around in 7 days.

Melbourne isn't the only team with sore bodies and a tough fixture. 

Last year was great but we won't get much respect from the wider football community until we beat the big boys on the MCG in front of 70k. We choked consistently this year but then looked a million bucks whenever we played in completely different cities.

Being the best team around when barely anyone can watch you live is great until you actually start having to compete against the crowd. As soon as people started showing up and making noise, we choked. On Friday, in typical Melbourne fashion, we'd kick a goal and the "Make some noise" clips would flash on the big screen. The crowd would roar and the team's response was to drop marks and get beaten in contests despite outnumbering the Lions players. Worst was when the scoreboard was flashing, everyone was screaming, and Gawn tapped it down Zorko's throat... classic!

No doubt injuries, fitness, coaching all played a role but good teams find ways to win. That we put to bed most Melbourne stereotypes in a year when we were in lockdown, only to return to being the league's whipping boy as soon as we can attend games again, is distinctively "Melbourne".

Had nothing to do with crowds as we had a 7-0 result interstate,   

[Engorged Onion 10,224]

Just confirming that 17 other clubs don't have the culture that it takes currently?

And we didn't have the culture in 2020 nor 2022, but did in 2021? 🤨

[Sir Why You Little 37,313]

13 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Just confirming that 17 other clubs don't have the culture that it takes currently?

And we didn't have the culture in 2020 nor 2022, but did in 2021? 🤨

This one is on the Coaches Box and the Selection Committee 

Backed in last Years team and personnel 

[layzie 34,340]

22 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Just confirming that 17 other clubs don't have the culture that it takes currently?

And we didn't have the culture in 2020 nor 2022, but did in 2021? 🤨

Or we definitely had the culture, right up until the last minute..

[Fork 'em 7,045]

Just watched a doco on STAN about Australia 2 and winning the Americas Cup.
Of course it featured John Bertrand who spoke about how driven he was to win the cup from the yanks for the 1st time.
So driven he went to America and studied nautical engineering so as to learn from those he was going to compete against.
Anyway, near the end he was asked why he decided not to defend the cup as captain at Fremantle.
His answer ... "Content men don't win world titles."

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Fork 'em

[Macca 17,114]

8 hours ago, praha said:

Straight set exits actually aren't that common. And certainly not from teams only at the start of their premiership window. Most of the time when it's happened it's happened towards the end. 

 

Straight set exits has actually happened 34 times since 1967 so it's quite common ... a bit less so in the 21st century but nevertheless, it's more common that imagined

By the way, I was shocked (upon doing the brief research required) as I might have thought it was more of a rarity as well (straight set exits)

Go to the 'What a waste of a season' thread (about half way through page 6) for a detailed breakdown

Last 4 ... Hawks 2016, Hawks 2018, Lions 2019, Lions 2021

 

n.b. there were also a few inglorious 1 game exits for teams who finished 3rd or 4th in the final 6 era

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Macca

[Fork 'em 7,045]

1 hour ago, Macca said:

 n.b. there were also a few inglorious 1 game exits for teams who finished 3rd or 4th in the final 6 era

 

Make no mistake.
Ours was an inglorious if not embarrassing exit.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Fork 'em

[Macca 17,114]

6 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

Make no mistake.
Ours was an inglorious if not embarrassing exit.

I'm over it now after a few days of miserable moping!!

Lots of other things in life including a myriad of other sports ... the horses, NFL, Baseball playoffs, Cricket, Soccer etc etc

For some, footy is their whole life and fair enough too.  Everyone's different

Looking back, we could search for excuses and reasons but ultimately, we weren't good enough

And we live to fight another day ... as always, recruiting is the key.  We need to go hard at improving the list with a can't-be-satisfied attitude

 

 

[DEE fence 5,045]

1 hour ago, Fork 'em said:

Just watched a doco on STAN about Australia 2 and winning the Americas Cup.
Of course it featured John Bertrand who spoke about how driven he was to win the cup from the yanks for the 1st time.
So driven he went to America and studied nautical engineering so as to learn from those he was going to compete against.
Anyway, near the end he was asked why he decided not to defend the cup as captain at Fremantle.
His answer ... "Content men don't win world titles."

 

It was a great doco, highly highly recommend, even my foreign mates got around it.

[fr_ap 2,544]

4 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

Just confirming that 17 other clubs don't have the culture that it takes currently?

And we didn't have the culture in 2020 nor 2022, but did in 2021? 🤨

You seemingly get a lot of joy out of being deliberately obtuse but I'll bite...

I clearly outlined you need a lot of things - culture being one of them. The beauty of us having a largely unchanged team, coaches box and off field situation from 21 to 22 is that you can remove a lot of variables or question marks as to why we couldn't do it again. You can't say that for other teams. Carlton fans don't know if their current group, or Voss, have the capacity to deliver a flag - ever. West coast know that their core and Simpson can, but had some extreme injury and COVID circumstances to blame. So on and so forth.  

Unless you want to make the case that Tom McDonald was the difference between winning a flag or not, our team, coaches and off field was largely the same. 

The team that gets most of these things the most right - the culture as well - that swell of belief and team unity you saw with your own eyes last year - will be the team that wins the flag. It's incredibly hard to capture and is the reason why flags are so hard to win. 

A thousand coaches have gone formulaic and smashed the best players together and asked them to deliver. It doesn't work. You need the players, you need the coaches, you need the system, you need some luck...but most of all you need something to stitch it all together. That's what I'm referring to as culture. It's people, relationships and environments, individually and in aggregate. These things drive effort and behaviours that ultimately make the difference on field. 

Every single person who has ever worked in a serious team knows how important it is. Lots don't want to acknowledge it as it can be wishy washy, vague and intangible. It's much more fun to say that BBB is slow or that another KPF fixes the puzzle. But that's simple, surface level stuff and ultimately misses the point about what drives success. 

So yes - 17 other clubs - or 16 as one will salute this year - either don't have all of the 5 elements sewn up - or if they do, they might be lacking the cultural element on top. 

And yes - we captured something in 2021 that we didn't have in 2020 or in 2022. Honestly - you lived it....is it really so hard to believe? 

Do you really think we won the 21 flag solely because the football skills of our squad and a gameplan coincidentally combined and peaked at the same time? That we won the flag because in a given week we had more inside 50s or that trac kicked it to spot X instead of Y, or that our players were just more skilful than the opposition? 

The same squad and coach finished 9th the year before.

It's pretty clear that what we found in 21 was not a magic footy formula of goals, behind and inside 50s, but a collective discipline, desire, selflessness, humility,  drive and set of values/behaviours (collectively, culture). The players and coaches have spoken about it ever since, and every flag team is the same. Talk to a Bulldogs fan about 2016 - they didn't even need all 5 of the other elements - such was the strength of the culture they found. 

Go ahead and pick holes in this by all means. It's just my opinion and not a perfect theory. At least one of us has gone to the effort to put something forward and explain it.

[Engorged Onion 10,224]

7 hours ago, fr_ap said:

You seemingly get a lot of joy out of being deliberately obtuse but I'll bite...

 

 

Apologies, you are correct,  I was being obtuse, and I'm not sure why I wasn't willing to present my argument in a different way last night.

In all seriousness, I thought your original post (and posting in general) is marvelous. You've articulated your theory well, although it is not a theory, a lot of this can be and is measured, both through qualitative and quantitiative means.

I was very very snidely making the point that great culture doesn't guarantee you anything, and that we often like to do post hoc analysis (which we all do, I did it around 'loading and training management') to make sense of things (particularly in sport)

I'd imagine if you asked each person at the club this year vs last year, the 'felt' experience at the club, would have been quite different. Did that in of itself impact on performance measures in training and game day? I'm not so sure, that those links are as measureable.

I'm well aware of a person (formally) in the AFL who walked into a club - saw certain values painted on the walls, laughed, and said this stuff is bollocks - and was gone within 3 months.

Values matter, culture matters, psychological safety matters - they'll give you the best opportunity for performance outcomes, and those outcomes are not guaranteed, because in this particular context you are coming up against 17 other teams with personal and organisational cultures that intersect and butt up against our own, on game day, with the same outcome desired.

 

*if you feel like nerding out on the topic

Edited September 13, 2022 by Engorged Onion

[fr_ap 2,544]

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

Apologies, you are correct,  I was being obtuse, and I'm not sure why I wasn't willing to present my argument in a different way last night.

In all seriousness, I thought your original post (and posting in general) is marvelous. You've articulated your theory well, although it is not a theory, a lot of this can be and is measured, both through qualitative and quantitiative means.

I was very very snidely making the point that great culture doesn't guarantee you anything, and that we often like to do post hoc analysis (which we all do, I did it around 'loading and training management') to make sense of things (particularly in sport)

I'd imagine if you asked each person at the club this year vs last year, the 'felt' experience at the club, would have been quite different. Did that in of itself impact on performance measures in training and game day? I'm not so sure, that those links are as measureable.

I'm well aware of a person (formally) in the AFL who walked into a club - saw certain values painted on the walls, laughed, and said this stuff is bollocks - and was gone within 3 months.

Values matter, culture matters, psychological safety matters - they'll give you the best opportunity for performance outcomes, and those outcomes are not guaranteed, because in this particular context you are coming up against 17 other teams with personal and organisational cultures that intersect and butt up against our own, on game day, with the same outcome desired.

 

*if you feel like nerding out on the topic

Thanks for the reply and all great points. Agree it is no guarantee on its own, just as putting the best talent together is no guarantee on its own. You need the sum of all parts. Lots of our parts are and have been proven to be in good order, hence my suspicion that culture is where we've fallen back a bit. 

Very hard to measure and/or pin down to a definition/formula though and even harder to then turn that into real behavioural change/standards - which is why it's so illusive. Innumerable small, seemingly inconsequential things that the leaders and others need to do consistently over a long time. It's a grind.

Don't forget Roos assessed that this was the key element he had to change in his time at the helm. He knew how important it is and I think he got us a long way. I think Goody and Gawn took us further and had the club humming last year, probably more off field than on.

Very very hard to find and maintain...nothing like a shock exit to drive standards though, so Im hopeful the club can recapture it 

[Supreme_Demon 3,933]

I think the May Vs Melksham fight out the front of the restaurant definitely soured things within our culture a few months ago.

May should never have been there drinking and also saying the nasty things which he did. Not that Melksham should be knocking people out either! Nevertheless, I am of the view that it has all been reconciled and they are all friends again....hopefully.

Let's hope the humiliating exit from the 2022 finals in straight sets will galvanize the entire team so that they are determined to make a mends next season in 2023.

Fingers crossed the Demons come back fit and firing for their first day of preseason in November or whenever it starts?

Edited September 14, 2022 by Supreme_Demon

[Monbon 1,840]

On 9/11/2022 at 11:52 AM, dl4e said:

I will repeat it again and again. They suffered from mental fatigue.

And a pile of injuries on top of that. Then came playing underdone essential players like Gawn, Lever, Salem, Langdon etc

[layzie 34,340]

16 hours ago, Macca said:

I'm over it now after a few days of miserable moping!!

Lots of other things in life including a myriad of other sports ... the horses, NFL, Baseball playoffs, Cricket, Soccer etc etc

 

And let's not forget about the other great things life has to offer as well. Like flowers, music or a big can of soda pop!

[At Least I Saw a Flag 5,315]

1 hour ago, layzie said:

And let's not forget about the other great things life has to offer as well. Like flowers, music or a big can of soda pop!

It took me a few days, but I'm over it too. 

I'm over the 2022 season ... just hope neither the filth, nor Jee-long win the flag. Can hardly be bothered to watch any further matches. I've never felt that way any other season. 

P.S. I was in the MCC GF ballot. Missed out ... but don't really care. I won't bother to wander up on the day, which I have always done in the past when I've missed out in the ballot.

[Monbon 1,840]

1 hour ago, layzie said:

And let's not forget about the other great things life has to offer as well. Like flowers, music or a big can of soda pop!

And Brussel Sprouts and vegemite sandwiches, not to mention Bex. Whatever happened to the good ole Bex?

[Macca 17,114]

4 hours ago, layzie said:

And let's not forget about the other great things life has to offer as well. Like flowers, music or a big can of soda pop!

Following the Demons (this year) reminds me of that Norm McDonald joke

In a dream you're relaxing by the pool with Christie Brinkley ... you wake up and then back to sleep and then back to the dream (kinda, sorta)

This time around you're playing pool with Dr Christiaan Barnard

Edited September 14, 2022 by Macca

[demoniac 1,337]

It was noteworthy how well our forward line functioned from the 22 minute mark of the last quarter of our 24th game of the season.

That is on the match committee not culture.

[Fork 'em 7,045]

I'm still walking past people at work all asking me what happened.
I just tell 'em we're still mentally weak and choked.
And I won't be over it till Collingwood is out.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Fork 'em

[dees189227 12,453]

I also wonder if we missed Nathan Jones and his leadership. Yes I know Jonesy wasn't on the field much last year and Max was great but I just wonder if May/Melksham fight would have happened or if we did get complacent whether Jones would have not allowed to let the players get ahead of themselves.