POSTGAME: Rd 17 vs Geelong

[jnrmac 20,060]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

This has been my gripe this year.

Kozzie 15 games and 20 goals.

Spargo 16 games and 6 goals

ANB 15 games and 4 goals.

Bedford 7 games and 8 goals.

I know it's simple not all about goals but jesus christ you'd expect a bit more more offensive output from both Spargo and ANB. 

There's a big problem when players like Fritsch keep burning team mates like he did again last night. 

Players then get selfish,  or they stop running to space (either to clear the fwd line or create a loose man) because they think what's the point. 

It becomes a cancer in a team.

Fritsch isn't the only one to do it (Brown and Tracc have a well) but we need to crack down hard on it because they way we  score goals is sharing it around. And when that stops scores dry up. 

Slow movement kills us as well. JJ is a real momentum killer in this regard nearly always stopping and slowing down the play. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by jnrmac

[jnrmac 20,060]

1 hour ago, Fat Tony said:

Chris Scott spoke about our predictability in his post match conference.

He spoke about how we regularly have two 200cm players going up in packs and how they stopped it by making sure the crumbs didn’t fall gently to the front where Oliver and Petracca position themselves.

I would like to see us trying a few things before finals, such as occasionally attacking with short kicks through the heart of the opposition zone. While we might give away the odd turnover goal, it would make us less predictable. 

Their talls really smashed the ball fwd and we were right at the foot of the pack most of the night

No marks to max and Jackson was nowhere to be seen

 

Coaches should have picked up on that. We are so so so predictable

Edited July 8, 2022 by jnrmac

[Willmoy1947 4,086]

Their best player was going around trying to scratch opposition players eyes out, go figure..

[1964_2 2,357]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think what gets lost about Kardinia Park is that it is a narrow ground but is also longer. It is not a "smaller" ground, it is a skinnier ground. The Cats play the length well, several times they had players congregating at half forward where they raffled it and also picked through the zone at half back before going long. Trying to go long from deep in defense or across half back plays into the opposition's hands because you end up in no man's land (similar to Subiaco).

Yep, too often they had free mids across half forward who had just run harder to space on a fast play. 

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,817]

Viney’s heading towards an extremely high finish in the Bluey.

[von 1,567]

6 hours ago, layzie said:

That was disappointing when we decided to ignore switches that were on, it was like we didn't want to show them anything that could possibly be changed up.

Very good chance we showed them nothing deliberately 

[1964_2 2,357]

4 minutes ago, von said:

Very good chance we showed them nothing deliberately 

Rope-a-dope :-  Hopefully! 

We definitely held some strategy back in the loss against the dogs same time last year 

 

[von 1,567]

5 hours ago, Hellaintabadplacetobe said:

We were really poor last night.

I am not buying the home ground advantage, 5 day interstate break excuse, they had about 3 hours less break.

You can't excuse getting smashed in clearances which hasn't happened to us for years. This and some awful decision making turnovers cost us the game.

Cats with their dream run home will be minor premiers but still think we'll be top 4.

Good for them, they can have it. Our midfield won’t play like they next time.

[von 1,567]

4 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Geelong had 5 days too. Its no excuse

They had about 12 days with a nice hit out in the middle to blow the cobwebs out

[Vipercrunch 2,827]

8 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

Do you? I actually asked you to elaborate but you clearly don't know how to address my detailed points and instead resorted to a personal insult.  

I feel more comfortable acknowledging the statistical differences which are inarguable. You feel comfortable clinging to the past and assuming history will repeat itself. You're not the first to do it and won't be the last. The Media are good at it too.   

My assessment of our form does not turn on my 'comfort' with failure or success - I'm just repeating widely available objective stats that tell a story for those willing to listen. Goody & Co have repeatedly spoken about not looking at the past. If they were we would never have gotten off the 2019 canvas. If they're looking at '21 & saying "its all good, this happened last year" - not only would they be statistically wrong but they'd be fools as well. 

As the one drawing parallels to last year with no real justification - you clearly feel more comfortable with blind hope. At least acknowledge it rather than dropping last year's form-line like its a relevant analysis.     

For what it's worth, I clearly hope I am wrong and you are right 

The reason I didn’t address it because it’s been addressed so well by others on these forums in the past, but to sum it up for you, our game plan relies enormously on our ability to cover the ground both defensively to create turnovers and then going forward to create scores. No other teams relies on it as much as we do. And if we are fatigued we can’t execute our game plan and become very beatable by good teams (and not so good teams.). Fatigue also creates poor decision making, poor skill execution, lack of power to break tackles, and I could go on and on. I don’t accept it’s an effort issue.  Or complacency. Or tactical.

Last year is absolutely a valid comparison because the science behind our fitness preparation hasn’t changed.  There are lots of other variables of course but the facts are in order to give ourselves the best chance to succeed in September, we have to risk our performance in June and July. If we play it too safe, teams that were willing to risk more now will steam roll us come finals.

Loading is 100% necessary but it’s also not a silver bullet. My “blind hope” as you put it comes because I trust our coaches aren’t taking anything for granted.   They now have the track record of taking care of the big picture (loading) while also identifying all the 1% issues that need addressing.  Always, (win, lose or draw), looking at ways to improve. Always respecting the competition and opposition.  They have been the constant theme of Godwin’s press conferences. My blind and naive hope is because our football department has earned my trust. 

[Scoop Junior 3,471]

5 hours ago, A F said:

It was very clear watching it from the top of the centre wing stand that our defensive transition wasn't on all night. We allowed them short chips that we don't usually allow when we're on, we allowed Duncan to constantly sit at the back of stoppages unmarked and we allowed them to get into some incredibly dangerous goal side positions completely unmarked. Highly unusual. They constantly got it on the outside at stoppage too.

This x10.

I was at the game too and Geelong continually set up at around-the-ground stoppages (particularly throw-ins and ball ups near the boundary) with at least one, sometimes two, players on the defensive side of the stoppage. The one that was constantly there and left alone was in an almost North-West position from the ruckmen at a boundary throw in. Often it was Duncan.

Our approach the whole night was to leave this player alone. We either had the same numbers at the stoppage but held defined positions (e.g. we'd have a player in a North position from the ruckmen (defensive side of the Geelong spare but often unable to affect the play)) or we'd have a spare behind the ball.

Time and again they would win the footy and flip it out to the spare, who would then have enough time to either handball to a player running past or deliver somewhat un-pressured inside 50. The benefit of having our spare back is lost if pressure isn't applied to the ball carrier - the spare is there for the hack pressured kick but we weren't able to apply enough heat / Geelong were too clean and crisp in close to cause hack kicks forward.

Now I have no problem with retaining our structure and method as it has been working and you can't just chop and change all the time. But in this game, with Geelong outhunting us and bringing more heat and intensity, causing us to fumble or turn over the ball when we did get first possession, I thought we could've tinkered a bit at stoppages to try and nullify this.

A great example came in the third quarter. Stoppage at Geelong's half forward line. They had the extra at the stoppage, we had Lever spare down back. They won it, flipped it out to the spare, we couldn't close him down quickly enough, the spare then fed it inside to Smith who ran to 50m and goaled. Lever as the spare was then wasted as he could only watch the ball sail over his head.

Clever by Geelong to use the extra number to create flowing entries and ensure as few hack kicks as possible to our spare. Without applying enough heat when Geelong won the ball, it allowed them to get the stoppage game on their terms and was a big factor in the result.

We also lacked another big target forward of the ball but what really cost us were just some ridiculous decisions going inside 50. There were a number of times we had players out in space but just kicked it straight down the throat of a Geelong defender. These were un-pressured entries so it was incredibly frustrating to waste so many opportunities going inside 50.

Geelong were clearly the better side on the night. They were more intense with their hunt of the man with the ball and deserved to win the game. It reminded me of the Collingwood game where we were in the game in the last quarter but never really looked in control or likely to win.

[darkhorse72 1,916]

16 hours ago, Vipercrunch said:

Last time I went there (that horrible thumping on a miserable night in 2019) I was stunned that they had the loudspeaker playing a clap and cheering track after their goals. It was a packed house and they still needed to artificially create an atmosphere. 

dockers do the same thing

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

17 minutes ago, Scoop Junior said:

This x10.

I was at the game too and Geelong continually set up at around-the-ground stoppages (particularly throw-ins and ball ups near the boundary) with at least one, sometimes two, players on the defensive side of the stoppage. The one that was constantly there and left alone was in an almost North-West position from the ruckmen at a boundary throw in. Often it was Duncan.

Our approach the whole night was to leave this player alone. We either had the same numbers at the stoppage but held defined positions (e.g. we'd have a player in a North position from the ruckmen (defensive side of the Geelong spare but often unable to affect the play)) or we'd have a spare behind the ball.

Time and again they would win the footy and flip it out to the spare, who would then have enough time to either handball to a player running past or deliver somewhat un-pressured inside 50. The benefit of having our spare back is lost if pressure isn't applied to the ball carrier - the spare is there for the hack pressured kick but we weren't able to apply enough heat / Geelong were too clean and crisp in close to cause hack kicks forward.

Now I have no problem with retaining our structure and method as it has been working and you can't just chop and change all the time. But in this game, with Geelong outhunting us and bringing more heat and intensity, causing us to fumble or turn over the ball when we did get first possession, I thought we could've tinkered a bit at stoppages to try and nullify this.

A great example came in the third quarter. Stoppage at Geelong's half forward line. They had the extra at the stoppage, we had Lever spare down back. They won it, flipped it out to the spare, we couldn't close him down quickly enough, the spare then fed it inside to Smith who ran to 50m and goaled. Lever as the spare was then wasted as he could only watch the ball sail over his head.

Clever by Geelong to use the extra number to create flowing entries and ensure as few hack kicks as possible to our spare. Without applying enough heat when Geelong won the ball, it allowed them to get the stoppage game on their terms and was a big factor in the result.

We also lacked another big target forward of the ball but what really cost us were just some ridiculous decisions going inside 50. There were a number of times we had players out in space but just kicked it straight down the throat of a Geelong defender. These were un-pressured entries so it was incredibly frustrating to waste so many opportunities going inside 50.

Geelong were clearly the better side on the night. They were more intense with their hunt of the man with the ball and deserved to win the game. It reminded me of the Collingwood game where we were in the game in the last quarter but never really looked in control or likely to win.

I love this level of analysis.

For me I am curious about about coaching decisions (or non decisions).

Is there inflexibility and a steadfast refusal to change certain tactics - ie: cover the extra number? Is it simply - our system will hopefully beat your system? or in marking contests clearly spoiling the ball very long vs at the feet where our smalls set up 

or, say with Petracca operating more forward (thus removed from clearance situations) (doubly showing there is flexibility to choose to do something different) why aren’t these alterations done during the game?

Is it Goodwin and co not seeing it as it occurring in game? Or is it optimistically the myth of, seeing their hand and keeping your powder dry? 

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Engorged Onion

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

27 minutes ago, von said:

Very good chance we showed them nothing deliberately 

Please explain (I just enquired about that in another post).

[Fritta and Turner 4,407]

Well we were still in the game in the early stages of the last quarter.

I thought our mid field played 'well' but couldnt clear it as they got caught or dispossed.  This required other players to shepherd, protect or block for the ball carrier, which they didnt do as they had run fwd to receive.  Geelongs passion and ferocity caught us out.

[demoncat 1,432]

28 minutes ago, Vipercrunch said:

The reason I didn’t address it because it’s been addressed so well by others on these forums in the past, but to sum it up for you, our game plan relies enormously on our ability to cover the ground both defensively to create turnovers and then going forward to create scores. No other teams relies on it as much as we do. And if we are fatigued we can’t execute our game plan and become very beatable by good teams (and not so good teams.). Fatigue also creates poor decision making, poor skill execution, lack of power to break tackles, and I could go on and on. I don’t accept it’s an effort issue.  Or complacency. Or tactical.

Last year is absolutely a valid comparison because the science behind our fitness preparation hasn’t changed.  There are lots of other variables of course but the facts are in order to give ourselves the best chance to succeed in September, we have to risk our performance in June and July. If we play it too safe, teams that were willing to risk more now will steam roll us come finals.

Loading is 100% necessary but it’s also not a silver bullet. My “blind hope” as you put it comes because I trust our coaches aren’t taking anything for granted.   They now have the track record of taking care of the big picture (loading) while also identifying all the 1% issues that need addressing.  Always, (win, lose or draw), looking at ways to improve. Always respecting the competition and opposition.  They have been the constant theme of Godwin’s press conferences. My blind and naive hope is because our football department has earned my trust. 

Couldn't have said it better myself @Vipercrunch.

No one is saying that the players or coaches should be immune to criticism, but after what we saw last year they have 100% earned my trust. After 57 years without a flag, surely we ought to show Goody and co. some faith.

[von 1,567]

12 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Please explain (I just enquired about that in another post).

We didn’t really look to change things much during the season last year. Move things around etc. why give away your tricks before finals. Our game plan is built on predictability but there’s always a few moves you can make to nullify things or create advantages. Clearances for example. Yes we were tired but if it was a prelim we would have worked on nullifying that, I don’t think we did last night.

[von 1,567]

5 minutes ago, Jontee said:

Well we were still in the game in the early stages of the last quarter.

I thought our mid field played 'well' but couldnt clear it as they got caught or dispossed.  This required other players to shepherd, protect or block for the ball carrier, which they didnt do as they had run fwd to receive.  Geelongs passion and ferocity caught us out.

The fact we were in a position to pinch that game despite being so poor is a big plus. Geelong will be aware that we were off. It was interesting in Chris Scott’s presser he went out of his way to say that’s as good as they have essentially. Meaning us. But I think he knows it wasn’t

[Redleg 40,912]

1 hour ago, willmoy said:

Their best player was going around trying to scratch opposition players eyes out, go figure..

Actually thought that was pretty disgusting and then Guthrie gave a belt to the back of the head, after he finished scratching the face. Surely that is reportable.

[binman 42,931]

2 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

I would like to see us trying a few things before finals, such as occasionally attacking with short kicks through the heart of the opposition zone. While we might give away the odd turnover goal, it would make us less predictable. 

Goody kept his tactical powder dry last year during the home and away season. I can't recall a single occasion where he experimented tactically against contenders, even when they did so against us - for example in the round 19 game against the dogs when he refused to respond to Bevos tactical tricks (two extras to the stoppages, trying to tag lever).

We could have won that game if he he responded (eg match the extras), but i believe him when he says it is all about winning a premiership. 

And come the grand final he showed some of his tactical tricks (eg jacko's longer stint in the ruck, the center clearance set up), the difference being Bevo never had the benefit of seeing them.

Which is not to say he didn't try and keep the other contenders guessing during the home and away. For most of the year he allowed the conversation to swirl about our 'best' forward line set up, when in reality he almost certainly had the three tall set up locked in as the optimal model from the get go. He is repeating this panto this year. 

And he is clearly experimenting with our use of long handballs into space he introduced in the lions game. That is a pretty significant tactical experiment to introduce mid season.

 

[gregdemon 624]

SCOTT should sit down with the cheer squad all he does is barrack all night.  How much do I hate him.    never win a flag on his own  that one was bombers flag.  Dads army will go out in straight sets again or just win one final

Why do they get a home game down there?   No other Melbourne club does  its only one hour away from CBD !!!

 

1st versus 2    21000 odd could only go !!!!!! .  Never see the filth or carltank play there    .. and then they have a ground so unique makes it worse.    I laugh when they fall over in finals which they surely will again this year...  rant over on to next week

 

[sue 9,103]

We played very poorly last night and maybe cats could have made more of their chances but surely we can take some comfort from the fact we were only centimetres from drawing level during Q4 despite being outplayed. 

[John Demonic 5,795]

When we were up 2 goals to zip, I did not like the Petracca hit on Selwood after he got rid of it. Selwood dump kicked it directly to us, and we would've had a shot on goal to put us up 3 goals. I know we want to mentally intimidate them and their captain, but that wasn't the right time to do it. Minor quibble, but surely against team rules to give away silly free kicks.

[jnrmac 20,060]

2 hours ago, 1964_2 said:

How smug was he. Well deserved though. We were out-played and out-coached.

It sounded to me, as if he was proudly showing off how he had cracked the code :- and making sure other coaches/teams would catch on to his views on the key reasons why we were beaten 

I don't like Scott but he has reason to be chuffed. He has re-engineered his side to beat us. Kudos.

But with 8m to go Kozzie kicks for goal and hits the post. We are 5pts down. Dont get too excited.

Plus he has shown his hand quite early and we know finals aren't won in July

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

@von, on a completely unrelated note. Whenever I see your name, I can’t help but think of the first album Von by Sigur Ros and this ripping song.

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Engorged Onion