In Season - Loading/Periodisation: Put your conjecture here.

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

1 minute ago, binman said:

In terms of scoring, i reckon our game plan makes us more susceptible to problems with our offence as our offence is reliant on our defensive system working.

And fatigue makes it all but impossible for our defensive system to work properly becuase we struggle to stop teams' hitting up free players and once they do, hold that player up, meaning we struggle to stop opposition transition.  

Definitely agree with all of that. but i would also say that while our coaches have done a brilliant job, we still aren't a particularly skillful team, and so when fatigued we do revert a little bit to old habits when the options aren't immediately available to us. 

I think our poor conversion inside 50 is a result of our forwards being fatigued and not being able to create gaps as easily with their opposition, and the players further afield being slightly fatigued and not being able to run and carry quite as far before being rounded up, so they end up having to kick long from further out, resulting in shallower, and more predictable entries. 

I feel like we had a similar issue at this stage last season, i remember commentators saying if we can't find a way to score we can't win the flag. 

[drdrake 3,187]

The sports science involved at AFL now is massive.  The management of players game time, training time, ball contacts, contact drills time, distance covered and the speed players are analysed.

In regards to loading in a period, not sure about loading but you would taper off you load to peak at certain times. 

The advantage of having 10 wins on the board you might look at keeping loads up a bit longer and taper off later to ensure you hit your peak at the optimal time.

[Adam The God 30,411]

2 hours ago, Smokey said:

At least they've still been scoring. Based on that I'm not convinced there's a comparison in the context of loading. 

They are an offensive team. That's their one wood. @binmanhas nailed this anyway. Our offence comes from our defence. If our defence is off, we struggle to score.

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

38 minutes ago, A F said:

They are an offensive team. That's their one wood. @binmanhas nailed this anyway. Our offence comes from our defence. If our defence is off, we struggle to score.

For some....🤯 and without being patronising, can you bullet point what you mean by if our defence is off, we struggle to score.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Engorged Onion

[John Demonic 5,850]

Loading as in we're building up our stores, until we shoot our load in the latter half of the year?  

 

[Adam The God 30,411]

5 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

For some....🤯 and without being patronising, can you bullet point what you mean by if our defence is off, we struggle to score.

Just that we play a territory game, based on trying to turn the ball over as close to goal as possible. If our team defence isn't there, we can't apply pressure to make the opposition turn it over.

Up the other end of the ground, if we apply good post clearance pressure (defence) from stoppage, our defenders behind the ball can intercept and slingshot back the other way before the opposition mids have a chance to block up space on transition.

If we have to play slow from the back half, we need pressure (defence) on the ground ball if our talls don't mark it but bring it to ground. We then either hope to lock it in for a stoppage reset and go again; or swarm and outnumber to get a clean look at 50, goal or a forward hit up; or simply surge the ball forward to gain extra territory and put the opposition defence under pressure in our attacking 50.

The last two weeks we've been incredibly inconsistent when the ball hits the deck and been beaten by the opposition to important ground balls and that’s even if our talls have managed to bring it to ground at all.

Our game starts from a position of contest or defence ("building from the contest out" was the mantra) and it's about getting the ball back as quickly as possible (think the Klopp Liverpool press, which is why we've so often compared 2021 MFC to Liverpool). But like Klopp's system, it requires amazing fitness and concentration. 

We first got this one wood clicking in the Collingwood game in 2020 and later in the St Kilda game that year, where we strangled them and didn't allow them to slingshot off half back (our half forwards and mids were on that day/night). It was a markedly different way of playing. It's now being aped by numerous opposition, with less talented personnel.

Edited June 8, 2022 by A F

[binman 43,762]

I'd add to AF's terrific post that the other two key elements connecting our defence and offence is the incredible amount of all team running we do and our transition game (when at our best).

Goody talks about the three phases.

Defence is one, transition another and offence the third phase.

Our mids, half forwards, wingers - hell even players like Brown - all push back deep into defence in numbers to help.

This up and down the ground running, which more often than not is unrewarded (in an individual not team sense), is incredibly taxing. Watch spargo in a game when next watching live to get a sense of that.

Of course that commitment helps our defence and increases our chances of winning ground balls in our back half.

But it is also is a key part of our offence, and when fully wound up a big driver of our capacity to score quickly and heavily.

That's  because when we win the ball in our back half and then transition, the wave of players that have pushed back, sweeps forward.

We run in waves and whoever has the ball usually has multiple team mates running parallel or slightly forward - almost like rugby union. 

Freo and the Swans (and the Hawks for that matter) generate one on ones up forward though quick, precision kicking  - if possible through the corridor (though freo also have elements of our swarm, which is one reason why they can be so damaging - they have two methods of transitioning the ball).

We do the same, but move the ball quickly with less precision ball movement and more swarm and that wave of players sweeping forward.

Think Langdon tight on the boundary on the hb, flipping it to kozzie, who flips it back, and so on. Suddenly we are at the wing or our hf line and have multiple options.

We can kick to a lead up flanker or tall. or go deep inside our 50 and if we don't mark or crumb it, create a stoppage and as AF notes, trap it inside our 50 (which also requires us to be at full fitness to work properly).

But that wave, swarm running when on, also creates lots of one on ones and often free players inside our 50. Think of our goals early this season when a player kicking inside 50 has multiple free options to kick to.

This happens because oppo players, particularly late in games, literally can't go with their direct opponent and are left gassed and trailing behind them.

It looks as if we have extra players on the ground and is thrilling to watch.

And it is all built on all team gut running and selflessness in the sense that most of that running is unrewarded in an individual sense (eg the off side winger may not touch the ball for big blocks of time, but has to do the running for the system to work because, one he provides an outlet option, and two his opponent has to go with him)

Because our opposition has to go with us all game we exhaust them, and as so often happens, opposition teams just hit the wall.

And when they do, like in the grand final, our offence looks a million dollars because we sweep it forward with ease and the opposition can't get back quick enough to clog up our forward line.

If, across the board, we are fatigued, all that wave running and swarm breaks down. It impacts every part of our game, but arguably our offence most of all.

When we can't swarm, our forward line looks stodgy and always crowded. And Brown for instance is always flying in a pack with our players and theirs (because that is our method - when in doubt kick to a pack and win the ground ball).

Tmac is a huge out, and the main reason is he does a huge amount of up and down the ground running and his opponent can't go with him.

Edited June 9, 2022 by binman

[Lucifers Hero 40,362]

All this chat about OUR offence, defence and contest sounds like we play in a vacuum. 

Nowhere near enough credit is being given to the impact of opposition game and tactics.  Sydney's tactics were brilliant.  imv those tactics rather than fatigue, loading, injury, missing personnel etc. were why we lost.  Their tactics may have contributed to fatigue or skill errors but they outworked us and outsmarted us.  Goodwin didn't identify Longmire as one of the hardest coaches to coach again for no reason.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[1964_2 2,357]

12 minutes ago, binman said:

I'd add to AF's terrific post that the other two key elements connecting our defence and offence is the incredible amount of all team running we do when at our best and our transition game.

Goody talks about the three phases.

Defence is one, transition another and offence the third phase.

Our mids, half forwards, wingers - hell even players like Brown - all push back deep into defence in numbers to help.

This up and diwn the ground running, which more often than not is unrewarded (in an individual not team sense), is incredibly taxing. Watch spargo in a game when next watching live to get a sense of that.

Of course that commitment helps our defence and increases our chances of winning ground balls.

But it also is a key part of our offence and when fully wound up a big driver of our capacity to score quickly and heavily.

That's is because when we win the ball in our back half and then transition that wave that has pushed back, sweeps forward.

We run in waves and whoever has the ball usually has mutiple team mates running parallel or slightly forward.

Freo and the swans (and the Hawks for that matter) generate one on ones up forward though quick, precision kicking  - if possible through the corridor (though freo also have elements of our swarm, which is one reason why they can be so damaging at times - they have two methods of transitioning the ball).

We do the same, but we achieve that same  with less precision ball movement and more swarm and that wave of players sweeping forward.

Think langdon tight on the boundary on the hb, flipping it to kozzie, who filps it back and so. Suddenly we areat the wing or our hf line and have mutiple options.

We can kick to a lead up flanker or go deep inside our 50 and if we don't mark or crumb it, create a stoppage and a AF notes trap it inside our 50 (which also requires us to be at full fitness to work properly)

But that wave, swarm running when on also creates lots of one on ones and often free players inside our 50. Think of our goals early this season when a player kicking inside 50 has mutiple free options to kick to.

This happens because oppo players, particularly late in games, literraly can't go with their direct opponent and are left gased and trailing behind them.

It looks as if we have extra players on the ground and is thrilling to watch.

And it is all built on all team gut running and selflessnessin the sense that most of that running is unrewarded in an individual sense (eg the off side winger may not touch the ball or get a chance to score for hbig blocks of time, but has to do the running fir the sytem to work because  one he provides an option, and two his opponent has to go with him)

Because our opposition has to go with us all game we exhaust them and as so often happens, they just hit the wall.

And when they do, like in the grand final, our offence looks a million dollars because we sweep it forward with ease and the opposition can't get back quick enough to clog up our forward line.

If, accross the board, we are fatigued all that wave running and swarm breaks down. It impacts every part of our game, but arguably our offence most of all.

When we can't swarm our forward line looks stodgy and always crowded. And Brown for instance is always flying in a pack with our players and theirs (because that is our method - when in doubt kick to a pack and win the ground ball).

Tmac is a huge out, and the main reason is he dies a huge amount of up and down the ground running and his opponent can't go with him.

Well explained Binman.

And the waves of defensive running, that quickly transitions to attack has mysteriously gone missing in the last 2 weeks (especially the 2nd half’s). Unlikely that the coaching group have changed such a successful game plan, or that the players have suddenly forgotten how to implement it :- so it does appear pretty obvious to me what is going on, but everyone is free to have their own opinions :) 

[DemonWA 3,936]

19 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

All this chat about OUR offence, defence and contest sounds like we play in a vacuum. 

Nowhere near enough credit is being give to the impact of opposition game and tactics.  Sydney's tactics were brilliant.  imv those tactics rather than fatigue, loading, injury, missing personnel etc. were why we lost.  Their tactics may have contributed to fatigue or skill errors but they outworked us and outsmarted us.  Goodwin didn't identify Longmire as one of the hardest coaches to coach again for no reason.

100% 

[Lucifers Hero 40,362]

18 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Well explained Binman.

And the waves of defensive running, that quickly transitions to attack has mysteriously gone missing in the last 2 weeks (especially the 2nd half’s). Unlikely that the coaching group have changed such a successful game plan, or that the players have suddenly forgotten how to implement it :- so it does appear pretty obvious to me what is going on, but everyone is free to have their own opinions :) 

Sydney closed the exits from d50.  If that failed they corralled our players against the boundary b/w d50 and the middle. 

Then we reverted to 'hot potato' handballing in circles until it was turned over straight back into their f50..  Our handball chain didn't get going. 

Our players played as if the hand ball chain would just happen.  There were several times a defender handballed to a player and stepped forward ahead of the ball to receive, instead of laying a shepherd.  The receiving player was tackled, ball spills free.  Turnover.  The defender was to far forward of the ball to defend the turnover.

I get the theory being discussed in prior posts about defence and offence etc but lets also look at what happens in actual games.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[1964_2 2,357]

6 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Sydney closed the exits from d50.  If that failed they corralled our players against the boundary b/w d50 and the middle. 

Then we reverted to 'hot potato' handballing in circles until it was turned over straight back into their f50..  Our handball chain didn't get going. 

Our players played as if the hand ball chain would just happen.  There were several times we handballed to a player and stepped forward to receive, instead of laying a shepherd.  Our player was tackled, ball spills free.  Turnover. 

I get the theory being discussed in prior posts about defence and offence but lets also look at what happens in actual games.

Good points in here. But Syd is not the first team to apply this. In the past, this method has created a struggle, but our work rate and willingness to continue running breaks things open. 

the last 2 weeks it has been clear from about the 2nd quarter that our usual run, pressure, effort is just not there. 

maybe they have all been having too many froffies, rather than loading. Either way, we are probably at least a month away from knowing the answer. 

[dpositive 1,684]

On 6/7/2022 at 2:40 PM, —coach— said:

I have a degree in Exercise Science and 22 years experience in elite sport and agree roughly with Binman.

Peak performance readiness only lasts so long. Teams in premiership contention try one of two (with variations) approaches:

- Continue preseason for many weeks into regular season sacrificing peak performance in the interim, banking enough wins along the way (60%/40% is a good result depending on who they play) to keep them in and around top 8, then lightning the load and hitting their straps a few weeks later. This can be followed by a shorter block later in the season (around round 18), with final peaking occurring in finals. This all depends on list/age profile of course.

- Train for a double peak which means they prepare to hit the season running and bank early wins (exactly as we seem to have done), before building load prior to and out the other side of the bye rounds (again sacrificing best performance and looking for a 60/40% win loss record) before hitting a second peak in the later half of the year. (Pre finals bye and pre Prelim bye for those top 4 who win first week allow reduction in game fatigue and increased uptake of train stimulus without negative effect (normally in the form of high intensity work like match simulation activities).

Don't forget there's different forms of loading which have different outcomes. Aerobic Endurance, Aerobic power, Anaerobic endurance and anaerobic power are all types of prescription which have different outcomes. You can't do all at the same time, but tend to focus on them at different phases throughout the season. Not all have a negative effect on game day performance but all come together in the end (in theory) at the right time.

Remember also, not every athlete is the same. Petracca (power athlete) will respond to increases in volume (running and gym reps) different to Langdon (endurance athlete). Hence each will be prescribed different stimulus to suit body type and training background and are monitored via gps for all metrics of volume,  intensity and duration. During this time Petracca will likely get slow and heavy (and thus kick poorly), while Langdon is unlikely to suffer the same way and may in fact get better.

If you add to that the influence of injury and illness, it can become quite a balancing act to make sure all athletes are doing what they need for their best performance. Sometime an athlete may need to extend their period of increased loading because they were sick or injured for a period during that time and actually dropped load whilst sick/injured.

Having worked closely with a S+C coach involved in AFL for 8 years , I can assure you that teams do go through periods of increased training load throughout the season depending on where they sit on the table.

Watching our boys in person the past few weeks they sure do look like they have changed training stimulus.

In any event it's all speculation really as the club isn't about to come and hand out their IP to everyone by telling them what they are doing, so time and on field performance will reveal all!

Fantastic info.

Can he loading be applied to different members of the squad so that someone afffected by loading is replaced by another on a different schedule?

If this is possible wouldn't this also be an opportunity to build and enhance depth and development.

[Lucifers Hero 40,362]

1 minute ago, 1964_2 said:

Good points in here. But Syd is not the first team to apply this. In the past, this method has created a struggle, but our work rate and willingness to continue running breaks things open. 

the last 2 weeks it has been clear from about the 2nd quarter that our usual run, pressure, effort is just not there. 

maybe they have all been having too many froffies, rather than loading. Either way, we are probably at least a month away from knowing the answer. 

The Freo loss I put down to having 3-4 key players missing and May, Petty and Petracca going 'missing' during the game.  And in the second half they won in the middle because Petracca wasn't there and they tagged Oliver.   Then kicked to our shortened backline and game over.  We ended up with a lot of ins that weren't as used to playing our system with each other and quite a few played out of position.  So imv it is an outlier. 

True, Sydney isn't the first team to do the things I mentioned.  But they did a heap of other stuff that others haven't and made it a complete 'package' and unfortunately for us they all worked.  I doubt it will go there way again.  We learn each week and adjust. 

[DistrACTION Jackson 9,229]

23 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

The Freo loss I put down to having 3-4 key players missing and May, Petty and Petracca going 'missing' during the game.  And in the second half they won in the middle because Petracca wasn't there and they tagged Oliver.   Then kicked to our shortened backline and game over.  We ended up with a lot of ins that weren't as used to playing our system with each other and quite a few played out of position.  So imv it is an outlier. 

True, Sydney isn't the first team to do the things I mentioned.  But they did a heap of other stuff that others haven't and made it a complete 'package' and unfortunately for us they all worked.  I doubt it will go there way again.  We learn each week and adjust. 

I think it's a good thing to see how certain teams play against us atm, as it gives us the information we need later in the year to combat this.

I have noticed Goodwin hasn't been changing much in the team structure to try win a tight game and is just backing the players at this stage.

I reckon this may change in the finals though as it is do or die. And I don't mind that we keep our cards close to the chest, as if we swing something different mid game it is near impossible for a team to change on the run.

[—coach— 3,496]

20 minutes ago, dpositive said:

Fantastic info.

Can he loading be applied to different members of the squad so that someone afffected by loading is replaced by another on a different schedule?

If this is possible wouldn't this also be an opportunity to build and enhance depth and development.

Yes it can, but ultimately you would want all of your players peaking at the same time (September) so would want to provide a program that prepares all your athlete to peak at the same time.  By running multiple schedules you risk a portion of your group being flat at the wrong time. Remember other factors affect the preparation, so if you add a layer of complexity (multiple schedules) and then cop injuries/illness you may not have the ability to effectively facilitate (due to budget/personnel constraints) so many variances. Plus it's often better for motivation (mental/emotional readiness) for the whole group to be roughly on the same schedule as the team pulls each other along to higher levels of training.

Don't forget 'loading' is applied differently to different physiological types, Petracca v Langdon being a good example. They won't both increase load the same, so there will already be a layer of specificity applied to different groups of players.

[binman 43,762]

6 hours ago, 1964_2 said:

The last 2 weeks it has been clear from about the 2nd quarter that our usual run, pressure, effort is just not there. 

 

Yep.

And it is worth noting in this context that in the first quarter against the Swans, before fatigue really starts becoming a real problem, we blitzed the Swans because our system was functioning. As fatigue set in we progressively lost our capacity to maintain our system allowing the Swans back into the game.

At the end of the first quarter we were 21 points up. We only scored four more goals for the match and only two in the second half. 

The Freo game followed a similar pattern, though we blitzed them in the second quarter. We were 25 points up at half time.

Again fatigue sets in, our capacity to maintain our system falls away and we can only manage one goal for the rest of the match.

And just as the swans did, Freo run away with the game and look a million dollars (they could manage only two goals in the first half but piled on 12 in the second half). 

We have scored three goals in total in the second half of the last two games. And given up 16.

Sure both Freo and the Swans played great - their pressure and game plans were first class. And the players and coaching teams deserve a huge amount of credit.

But 3 goals to 16 across four second half quarters?  That's not how we roll when we are up and about. 

[1964_2 2,357]

26 minutes ago, binman said:

Yep.

And it is worth noting in this context that in the first quarter against the Swans, before fatigue really starts becoming a real problem, we blitzed the Swans because our system was functioning. As fatigue set in we progressively lost our capacity to maintain our system allowing the Swans back into the game.

At the end of the first quarter we were 21 points up. We only scored four more goals for the match and only two in the second half. 

The Freo game followed a similar pattern, though we blitzed them in the second quarter. We were 25 points up at half time.

Again fatigue sets in, our capacity to maintain our system falls away and we can only manage one goal for the rest of the match.

And just as the swans did, Freo run away with the game and look a million dollars (they could manage only two goals in the first half but piled on 12 in the second half). 

We have scored three goals in total in the second half of the last two games. And given up 16.

Sure both Freo and the Swans played great - their pressure and game plans were first class. And the players and coaching teams deserve a huge amount of credit.

But 3 goals to 16 across four second half quarters?  That's not how we roll when we are up and about. 

Yep, and when the button was likely pushed on a high training phase, need to remember we did not look like losing, and media talk at the time was “will the Dees lose a game all year” 

ie it’s not hard to see that the logic behind the loading would have got strong support from various parts of the football department. 
 

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

It’s hard to make sense of the within match turnarounds in any other way.
 

If you’re using language as ‘out worked’ - as a catch-all, which kind of sounds as though we’re being lazy,complacent,just not good enough, then why are we not being outworked in the first quarter and a half comparatively? Whats the significant driver of fatigue? And why now is it occurring?

[binman 43,762]

15 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

It’s hard to make sense of the within match turnarounds in any other way.
 

If you’re using language as ‘out worked’ - as a catch-all, which kind of sounds as though we’re being lazy,complacent,just not good enough, then why are we not being outworked in the first quarter and a half comparatively? Whats the significant driver of fatigue? And why now is it occurring?

Occam's razor baby

[DemonWA 3,936]

Oh man, the post match topic is off the hook with loading excuses again haha

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 minute ago, DemonWA said:

Oh man, the post match topic is off the hook with loading excuses again haha

Weird time to argue we're not loading, but ok...

[Adam The God 30,411]

So we've gone from being the fittest side in the competition to being overrun in second halves three weeks in a row, and people are trying to argue we're not loading? Come off it.

[layzie 33,994]

I've come to post my conjecture here.

Except there is none. 

[SFebes 4,884]

Perhaps just the much later start to pre-season?