2 hours ago, binman said:

Two recent examples come to mind - the bombers last year (who were level at half time in an elimination final against the dogs, but could barely raise a trot in the second half and got smashed) and us in 2018. 

That 2018 massacre was equally a mental thing though. Stage fright. 

15 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

That 2018 massacre was equally a mental thing though. Stage fright. 

You might well be right. 

But one of the things I really dislike about not factoring in the impact of  training regimes and preparation on a team's performance is how, in the absence of doing so, often the footy media's and fan's default explanation ends up a variation of mental weakness/soft/got ahead of themselves/didn't turn up type rubbish.

It's just so mind numbingly simplistic and lacking any nuance.

 

Edited August 2, 20222 yr by binman

Bindicated 

18 minutes ago, binman said:

You might well be right. 

But one of the things I really dislike about not factoring in the impact of  training regimes and preparation on a team's performance is how, in the absence of doing so, often the footy media's and fan's default explanation ends up a variation of mental weakness/soft/got ahead of themselves/didn't turn up type rubbish.

It's just so mind numbingly simplistic and lacking any nuance.

 

Its lazy commentary. 

43 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

That 2018 massacre was equally a mental thing though. Stage fright. 

A family friend was an AFL umpire at the time and witnessed the Melb v Hawks games live. He told me categorically after we won that game (literally on the way home from the game) that we were out of legs and would get pumped by WC. Personally don't think it was mental, I just think a combination of high emotions from the previous few games and our helter skelter game plan at the time that we were super fatigued and subsequently got drilled that day.

Edited August 2, 20222 yr by —coach—
about a thousand spelling and grammar mistakes

35 minutes ago, binman said:

You might well be right. 

But one of the things I really dislike about not factoring in the impact of  training regimes and preparation on a team's performance is how, in the absence of doing so, often the footy media's and fan's default explanation ends up a variation of mental weakness/soft/got ahead of themselves/didn't turn up type rubbish.

It's just so mind numbingly simplistic and lacking any nuance.

 

I used the sentence 'equally mental' because no doubt the additional games took it out of us too. 

12 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

I used the sentence 'equally mental' because no doubt the additional games took it out of us too. 

Yep - to be clear, I wasn't suggesting you dismissed the idea fitness levels wasn't a factor. 

Even if we were super fresh, mentally it would have tough to back up a third week after our run into the finals and two huge games at the g.

Quote not edit

Edited August 2, 20222 yr by binman

15 minutes ago, binman said:

Yep - to be clear, I wasn't suggesting you dismissed the idea fitness levels wasn't a factor. 

Even if we were super fresh, mentally it would have tough to back up a third week after our run into the finals and two huge games at the g.

Perhaps that learning, coupled by the change over between Mission and Burgess helped formulate the change in approach. 

BTW If we smash the Pies I'm happy to say you've been 100% right about every aspect of this loading discussion and I was way too sceptical haha

11 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

Perhaps that learning, coupled by the change over between Mission and Burgess helped formulate the change in approach.

I doubt we changed our approach as such  -  Burgess didn't come to the club till 2020 (though we certainly would have had a lot of learnings!).

By that I mean we were no doubt loading, but in 2018 we would have been preparing to make finals, nor a preliminary. 

Whereas the Eagles, for example, the eventual flag winner, would have been preparing to peak on preliminary final day. 

7 hours ago, layzie said:

When were the Scott comments again A F? I've either missed them or forgotten.

I think I mean more so from the pundits, the so called experts who ask the questions about the form slump and then try to answer with analysis. Your Kings, Montagnas, Lloyds etc

I asked one of these analysts head on and they didn’t really believe in it so it’s no surprise that they don’t talk about it on their shows. 

18 minutes ago, CYB said:

I asked one of these analysts head on and they didn’t really believe in it so it’s no surprise that they don’t talk about it on their shows. 

What don't they believe? That club's do it? Or that it can impact players performance on gameday due to fatigue? Because reading the article by Cam Mooney posted earlier certainly refutes that.

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

What don't they believe? That club's do it? Or that it can impact players performance on gameday due to fatigue? Because reading the article by Cam Mooney posted earlier certainly refutes that.

Wasn’t a hard denial just seemed to think it was more arrogance / belly full. 

2 minutes ago, CYB said:

Wasn’t a hard denial just seemed to think it was more arrogance / belly full. 

It's one thing to know and not discuss it because you're playing to your audience and aiming for more easily digestible emotive discussion. It's another thing altogether to just dismiss it in the face of evidence. Why do they think club's pay and give so much control to the fitness staff and "phys edders"? There must be something in it ....

On 7/29/2022 at 11:22 PM, Wodjathefirst said:

Binman, you are my football guru.

Cannot wait until next week when we take on the Ferals

GO DEES

Sorry, for clarification;  I did post a vomit reaction but I would prefer to think of Binman as " he's just a very naughty boy" rather than a guru.

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's one thing to know and not discuss it because you're playing to your audience and aiming for more easily digestible emotive discussion. It's another thing altogether to just dismiss it in the face of evidence. Why do they think club's pay and give so much control to the fitness staff and "phys edders"? There must be something in it ....

The modern football conspiracy? 
 

2 hours ago, DemonWA said:

I used the sentence 'equally mental' because no doubt the additional games took it out of us too. 

How about 51% loading and 49% mental 😛

14 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Interesting to note who was the fitness coach at Geelong in 2007 - Dean Robinson aka The Weapon - also at Essendon when Goodwin was there.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-18/text-messages-reveal-danks-demons-involvement/4637954
 

51 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-18/text-messages-reveal-danks-demons-involvement/4637954
 

Imagine if it was revealed that we had some kind of edge that wasn't above board?

Actually don't. 

14 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's one thing to know and not discuss it because you're playing to your audience and aiming for more easily digestible emotive discussion. It's another thing altogether to just dismiss it in the face of evidence. Why do they think club's pay and give so much control to the fitness staff and "phys edders"? There must be something in it ....

You’ll notice that the non ex-football commentators aren’t quite as rigid in their opinions, whereas the ex-players are. I think some part of it is their ego.  They think that they swung the result of games with sheer desire and force of will, rather than training, natural ability, and emotional health in their outside life. 
 

No one is saying that it’s the only reason a team will lose but that it’s a key factor in performance (NOT result). But they see things more rigidly and think that the few % points lost in performance from loading won’t make a difference and to admit that it does dismisses how awesome the players are.
 

But at the elite level (in any sport) it is only a few % points in performance between winning and losing. 

Edited August 3, 20222 yr by Stu

Just to add to the point about small margins at the elite level, consider Carlin Isles. He left sprinting because he knew he couldn’t make the olympics and joined a sport that might get him there:

“Before taking up rugby in 2012, Isles ranked as the 36th fastest sprinter in the United States with a 100 metres outdoor personal best of 10.13 seconds”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlin_Isles

2 minutes ago, Stu said:

You’ll notice that the non ex-football commentators aren’t quite as rigid in their opinions, whereas the ex-players are. I think some part of it is their ego.  They think that they swung the result of games with sheer desire and force of will, rather than training, natural ability, and emotional health in their outside life. 
 

No one is saying that it’s the only reason a team will lose but that it’s a key factor in performance (NOT result). But they see things more rigidly and think that the few % points lost in performance from loading won’t make a difference and to admit that it does dismisses how awesome the players are.
 

But at the elite level (in any sport) it is only a few % points in performance between winning and losing. 

I wonder if players truly understand what is happening with their training programs and why. Players don’t need to understand the science they just need to turn up and complete the prescribed program. The way some players in the media talk it seems as though they don’t. I think this is also a generational thing. Training has changed a lot over the years I assume. From a mental standpoint I can see how players may be coached to work on mental application and preparation with the coaches adjusting their expectations depending on where they are in their training schedules. If players knew they were expected to perform at a lower level would that affect them on game day?

34 minutes ago, Stu said:

You’ll notice that the non ex-football commentators aren’t quite as rigid in their opinions, whereas the ex-players are. I think some part of it is their ego.  They think that they swung the result of games with sheer desire and force of will, rather than training, natural ability, and emotional health in their outside life. 
 

No one is saying that it’s the only reason a team will lose but that it’s a key factor in performance (NOT result). But they see things more rigidly and think that the few % points lost in performance from loading won’t make a difference and to admit that it does dismisses how awesome the players are.
 

But at the elite level (in any sport) it is only a few % points in performance between winning and losing. 

Great point. In the 80’s, 90’s early 2000’s when the sport was not as professional, maybe “hunger”, “spirit” and the like was a bigger factor in results.

In today’s professional game, with so many of the 1 % ers just an expectation for all players, the “edge” that decides games has potentially shifted, since some of these ex-football commentators were running around. 
 

53 minutes ago, von said:

I wonder if players truly understand what is happening with their training programs and why. Players don’t need to understand the science they just need to turn up and complete the prescribed program. 

I am very confident this would describe over 80% of the players - likely more

 

 

Edited August 3, 20222 yr by BW511

23 hours ago, —coach— said:

I can categorically say this is true, Olympic sports like swimming and cycling are miiiiiillles ahead of afl in terms of sport science because they are world sports not half a small country sport, they have multi year absolute peaks (they also have minor peaks multiple times throughout the 4 years), the margins between winning and 4th can hundredths of a second and in a sport like swimming you do 10-14 sessions (2hours plus per session) per week (if you don’t plan this extremely well you kill the athlete).

The New Zealand athletics coach Arthur Lydiard popularised periodisation training when his runners came from nowhere to be world beaters in the early 1960's. His own explanations for the physiological benefits of periodisation training were a bit inaccurate but science caught up by the 1980's to provide a physiological basis his methodology . 

If professional sports team, replete with fitness staff, are not using these principles now that would be akin to a pilot insisting the Earth is flat.