In Season - Loading/Periodisation: Put your conjecture here.

[binman 37,793]

56 minutes ago, djr said:

Ugh. I tried to translate but couldn't.

Fixed.

[Binmans PA 25,897]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

It's a fair point, especially in the light of Richo and Goody's responses to Langdon's comments.

Also, here's Trac;s thoughts: “We need a crowd first to actually get ourselves going, no one comes,” he said. “When you come out and only see 30,000 there …”

 

That's rubbish from Trac though. How did they go in Round 11 last year against the Bulldogs in an empty stadium?

No doubt the Collingwood crowd played a factor, but if our mob wants to be a great team beyond 2021, they need to be able to do it in high pressure atmospheres. The previous week they managed in a hostile environment...

Edited August 7, 2022 by A F

[Deenooos_ 647]

41 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

 

Yep he specifically said between rounds 11 and 19 this and last season. We weren't dominated by the pies on Friday the same way we were in our midseason losses, we never controlled that game on QB the way we did in large parts on Friday. We were still in it up to our necks until the last 10min. The pies certainly through everything at us with their ball movement but it was only just enough to beat us.

Freo knows how to beat us and our system because they showed that in round 11, so why didn't they replicate it last Friday to beat us again? Maybe our new found fitness restricted this and they didn't have the skills to pull it off against a more "switched on Melbourne". This may prove that Collingwood are a far better side than Freo because they were still able to execute the aggressive ball movement they used against us in round 13 when we were cooked. We were definitely not running with the classic "mud in our boots" on Friday, we looked fit but likely Collingwood are fitter than us at the current moment and had that extra gear to go to at the end.

It's now obvious that teams have found ways to beat our defence and get 1vs1 in our defensive half from slingshot quick footy. We are therefore by no means as bullet proof as last year (with full fitness or not) but I think we are still pretty good. 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Deenooos_

[Lord Nev 13,511]

25 minutes ago, A F said:

That's rubbish from Trac though. How did they go in Round 11 last year against the Bulldogs in an empty stadium?

No doubt the Collingwood crowd played a factor, but if our mob wants to be a great team beyond 2021, they need to be able to do it in high pressure atmospheres. The previous week they managed in a hostile environment...

The previous week was a different team. No one has said a hostile crowd means a loss.

All that is being said is that in the game on Friday the crowd was a factor in lifting the Pies.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

22 minutes ago, Deenooos_ said:

Yep he specifically said between rounds 11 and 19 this and last season. We weren't dominated by the pies on Friday the same way we were in our midseason losses, we never controlled that game on QB the way we did in large parts on Friday. We were still in it up to our necks until the last 10min. The pies certainly through everything at us with their ball movement but it was only just enough to beat us.

Freo knows how to beat us and our system because they showed that in round 11, so why didn't they replicate it last Friday to beat us again? Maybe our new found fitness restricted this and they didn't have the skills to pull it off against a more "switched on Melbourne". This may prove that Collingwood are a far better side than Freo because they were still able to execute the aggressive ball movement they used against us in round 13 when we were cooked. We were definitely not running with the classic "mud in our boots" on Friday, we looked fit but likely Collingwood are fitter than us at the current moment and had that extra gear to go to at the end.

It's now obvious that teams have found ways to beat our defence and get 1vs1 in our defensive half from slingshot quick footy. We are therefore by no means as bullet proof as last year (with full fitness or not) but I think we are still pretty good. 

My point is, you can't say:

'We'll smash Freo because loading, and all the analysts and Joe average don't understand that. And the Pies are in trouble next week'

And then say:

'Well we lost to the Pies because we're still 7 weeks away from optimal performance'.

That's clearly moving the goal posts IMO.

As you point out, there's clearly a lot of nuance and context to every game, as well as our form etc etc, none of that is an argument from me, but if you're (binman) going to take credit for your particular loading theory being the reason we won one game (especially when you go so over the top in criticizing footy commentators), then you need to conversely be willing to cop it when your prediction doesn't come to fruition the very next week.

[Binmans PA 25,897]

13 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

The previous week was a different team. No one has said a hostile crowd means a loss.

All that is being said is that in the game on Friday the crowd was a factor in lifting the Pies.

I don't disagree with that as per my post. I was referring to your mentioning of Trac and needing more than 30k to get up on game day.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

1 minute ago, A F said:

I don't disagree with that as per my post. I was referring to your mentioning of Trac and needing more than 30k to get up on game day.

Yeah, was a bizarre comment by him, but he did make it, and just using it to illustrate the crowd can give players a lift.

[binman 37,793]

4 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

My point is, you can't say:

'We'll smash Freo because loading, and all the analysts and Joe average don't understand that. And the Pies are in trouble next week'

And then say:

'Well we lost to the Pies because we're still 7 weeks away from optimal performance'.

That's clearly moving the goal posts IMO.

As you point out, there's clearly a lot of nuance and context to every game, as well as our form etc etc, none of that is an argument from me, but if you're (binman) going to take credit for your particular loading theory being the reason we won one game (especially when you go so over the top in criticizing footy commentators), then you need to conversely be willing to cop it when your prediction doesn't come to fruition the very next week.

That's it lord nev, I'm putting you on ignore. You can join a very small number of posters, like Dr D and stuie (a poster who loved nothing more than to bait other posters) in that exlusive club. 

I'm well up for debate, as you well know.

And I'll put my hand up when I've got it wrong.

But you seem only want to get into some sort of puerile gotcha discussions with your selective use of quotes.

And this time you've taken that childishness to another level and  completely made stuff up.

It is way past being disingenuous. It's aggressive, and frankly flat out rude to to make things up and post that I have said things I have NEVER said.

You put your made up comments in quotation marks despite the fact they are not actually quotes.

You made the comments up.

You can quote  this - I have lost respect for you deliberately making things up to score some silly point. 

And you can shove any comment like you were paraphrasing, interpreting, taking poetic liscence blah, blah, blah.

So for all posters who have read Lord Nev's post I have quoted above - as he well knows, I have never said, or even implied (cue selective quoting from Lord nev) that:

'Well we lost to the Pies because we're still 7 weeks away from optimal performance'

In fact, to be clear, despite the fact lord nev uses quotation marks, I never said his first quote either.

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by binman

[dimmy 1,108]

1 hour ago, A F said:

That's rubbish from Trac though. How did they go in Round 11 last year against the Bulldogs in an empty stadium?

No doubt the Collingwood crowd played a factor, but if our mob wants to be a great team beyond 2021, they need to be able to do it in high pressure atmospheres. The previous week they managed in a hostile environment...

The opponent not the crowd provide the atmosphere

[1964_2 2,357]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

My point is, you can't say:

'We'll smash Freo because loading, and all the analysts and Joe average don't understand that. And the Pies are in trouble next week'

And then say:

'Well we lost to the Pies because we're still 7 weeks away from optimal performance'.

That's clearly moving the goal posts IMO.

As you point out, there's clearly a lot of nuance and context to every game, as well as our form etc etc, none of that is an argument from me, but if you're (binman) going to take credit for your particular loading theory being the reason we won one game (especially when you go so over the top in criticizing footy commentators), then you need to conversely be willing to cop it when your prediction doesn't come to fruition the very next week.

Cmon Nev. You are holding the man 50 metres off the play, and pretending to be playing the ball. 
 

[Binmans PA 25,897]

9 minutes ago, dimmy said:

The opponent not the crowd provide the atmosphere

I think there's a bit of truth to both mate. When Collingwood get an inside 50 or move the ball quickly through the corridor that must increase the psychological pressure on defenders in 1v1 situations.

It wasn't a big factor though. I just didn't like Trac's comment. It's a cop out.

[Wodjathefirst 2,268]

1 hour ago, A F said:

That's rubbish from Trac though. How did they go in Round 11 last year against the Bulldogs in an empty stadium?

No doubt the Collingwood crowd played a factor, but if our mob wants to be a great team beyond 2021, they need to be able to do it in high pressure atmospheres. The previous week they managed in a hostile environment...

I think the crowd played a big factor last Friday. 
I agree that our team seems to gear up rather well for hostile crowds when we are playing interstate  and hope this holds true when we play Brisbane in the last round.

My big concern is when we play home games (like last week) and this week's game against Carlton.  As I mentioned in a earlier post , there are loading considerations, tactics and mindset.  Supporters can certainly have an impact on the players mindset. Not making excuses for outcomes but it’s a real shame our players miss out on getting this ‘edge’ in quite a few of our home games.

I’ve pretty much have lost faith in our supporter base and will be almost annoyed if they suddenly start turning up when we play of in the finals. (Off course I want them there  for the players sake, but I know they are just fair weather supporters, nothing more, nothing less)

[Binmans PA 25,897]

2 minutes ago, Wodjathefirst said:

I think the crowd played a big factor last Friday. 
I agree that our team seems to gear up rather well for hostile crowds when we are playing interstate  and hope this holds true when we play Brisbane in the last round.

My big concern is when we play home games (like last week) and this week's game against Carlton.  As I mentioned in a earlier post , there are loading considerations, tactics and mindset.  Supporters can certainly have an impact on the players mindset. Not making excuses for outcomes but it’s a real shame our players miss out on getting this ‘edge’ in quite a few of our home games.

I’ve pretty much have lost faith in our supporter base and will be almost annoyed if they suddenly start turning up when we play of in the finals. (Off course I want them there  for the players sake, but I know they are just fair weather supporters, nothing more, nothing less)

As someone who goes every week, I stopped begrudging fair weather MFC supporters during the Neeld years.

When you have 57 years of pain, it'll take more than one flag to build your supporter base up again. It takes consistent deep finals pushes and multiple flags. Look at Hawthorn. A fair weather supporter base, but they all come back when they become good again, because it's never a decade on the bottom.

Carlton have the history of 16 flags, so that's why their supporters are coming back. It's also only been 27 years for them.

[The heart beats true 16,025]

4 minutes ago, Wodjathefirst said:

I’ve pretty much have lost faith in our supporter base and will be almost annoyed if they suddenly start turning up when we play of in the finals. (Off course I want them there  for the players sake, but I know they are just fair weather supporters, nothing more, nothing less)

I try and be very glass half full about our supporters. I love the people who turn up to games. They’ve seen a lot of pain so they deserve to see a good side. I’m a touch heartbroken for us that we didn’t get to see any of last year live.

Where my frustration lies is squarely aimed at people with Reserved Seats. That area of the members was quite empty on Friday night. I think a lot of people got them with GF guarantees and just thought they’d stroll in come September.

[Wodjathefirst 2,268]

2 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

I try and be very glass half full about our supporters. I love the people who turn up to games. They’ve seen a lot of pain so they deserve to see a good side. I’m a touch heartbroken for us that we didn’t get to see any of last year live.

Where my frustration lies is squarely aimed at people with Reserved Seats. That area of the members was quite empty on Friday night. I think a lot of people got them with GF guarantees and just thought they’d stroll in come September.

100% agree with you.  I am one of the lucky, privileged if you like members that have got one of those GF guaranteed reserved seat memberships. (All sold out)

All year when we have had home games I can categorically and factually state that in the section I sit (Shane Warne stand, level 2A  near the wing, right next to the AFL that at best it is half full.  

Absolute shame. I’ve gone on about this in other posts so I will desist from repeating my disgust here.

[Wodjathefirst 2,268]

3 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Their crowd has been an enormous factor in the close games they've won all across the country this year. 

In the Gold Coast, it would have felt like their home game given the number of supporters they have. And at the G, they would feel unstoppable with that force of support behind them. 

They're a young, up and coming team. I don't care about years previous. It can be the difference in the last quarters of a game. And it has been. 

Don’t underestimate the influence a crowd can have over and above loading and tactic considerations on the psychological impact on player’s performance levels.

I was absolutely fortunate / lucky enough to attend all Melbourne’s finals last year.  In SA against Brisbane I’d say it was a 65/35 crowd. To be honest it wasn’t an electric atmosphere but we got the job done ( and was amazed at how SA still resented Lever leaving ). Similar atmosphere to playing a home game in Victoria.

The other finals in WA were a absolute never to forget crowd experience. Guessing it was a 70 / 30 crowd that made a 80/20 noise if that makes sense in both games.  It was loud, almost over the top hysteria (West Coast booing and all). Believe it or not, perhaps even more so when we played Geelong- they love to hate Geelong.  It was like a Collingwood crowd on steroids.  It was electric. I loved it. Did it help our team? Undoubtedly and immensely.

I could really understand why the Melbourne players wanted to do it again in front of their home crowd the following year.  First game, rematch against the Doggies, the atmosphere in comparison to the GF was decidedly flat.

And in my opinion it really didn’t get much better throughout the year.  I get why Petracca talks about crowd numbers.  The team is not getting the support they expected/ wanted from our supporter base. Does it impact their on field performances? Let’s put it this way it doesn’t help.

To finish off, I am not at all filthy on the people that turn up week in and week out or when they can. I am not having a go at the elderly, Covid concerned , distance issued supporters who can’t turn up.  You guys are the heart and soul of the club. I am just expressing deep felt disappointment to the fact that we have an inordinate number of fair weather supporters.  I feel embarrassed but more importantly I feel for our players.

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

3 hours ago, Wodjathefirst said:

Don’t underestimate the influence a crowd can have over and above loading and tactic considerations on the psychological impact on player’s performance levels.

I was absolutely fortunate / lucky enough to attend all Melbourne’s finals last year.  In SA against Brisbane I’d say it was a 65/35 crowd. To be honest it wasn’t an electric atmosphere but we got the job done ( and was amazed at how SA still resented Lever leaving ). Similar atmosphere to playing a home game in Victoria.

The other finals in WA were a absolute never to forget crowd experience. Guessing it was a 70 / 30 crowd that made a 80/20 noise if that makes sense in both games.  It was loud, almost over the top hysteria (West Coast booing and all). Believe it or not, perhaps even more so when we played Geelong- they love to hate Geelong.  It was like a Collingwood crowd on steroids.  It was electric. I loved it. Did it help our team? Undoubtedly and immensely.

I could really understand why the Melbourne players wanted to do it again in front of their home crowd the following year.  First game, rematch against the Doggies, the atmosphere in comparison to the GF was decidedly flat.

And in my opinion it really didn’t get much better throughout the year.  I get why Petracca talks about crowd numbers.  The team is not getting the support they expected/ wanted from our supporter base. Does it impact their on field performances? Let’s put it this way it doesn’t help.

To finish off, I am not at all filthy on the people that turn up week in and week out or when they can. I am not having a go at the elderly, Covid concerned , distance issued supporters who can’t turn up.  You guys are the heart and soul of the club. I am just expressing deep felt disappointment to the fact that we have an inordinate number of fair weather supporters.  I feel embarrassed but more importantly I feel for our players.

 

Fantastic post.

I'm going to start a thread on it, hopefully this post can be stamped there.

[Lord Travis 10,141]

If loading has cost us a top four finish in our premiership window, then it was a [censored] waste of time.

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

8 hours ago, Neil Crompton said:

Could it alternatively be that we are exactly the same side as we were last year, ie same game plan - and that’s the problem. Other sides have learnt and grown from our experience last year, and we simply haven’t, to our detriment. We stand still , we lose.

Whether that’s a likely alternative case or not I don’t know, but I feel that a number of posters on here have the attitude, in simple terms, that if we do what we did last year, everything will be alright - ie as soon as loading stops we will be flying. And it’s pretty evident after Friday night that we are not flying. 
Perhaps we need to have a closer look at our game plan with 2022 eyes and not 2021eyes.

Possibly but you need to factor in we aren't in the top 10 for the stats we were last year and before Friday night were 17th for pressure acts.

We were first last year.

Let that sink in.

We are not the amazing side we think we are and big games continue to prove that.

I know I'm jumping early but I reckon I've seen enough now.

Edited August 7, 2022 by COVID Dan

[Boots and all 894]

11 minutes ago, COVID Dan said:

Possibly but you need to factor in we aren't in the top 10 for the stats we were last year and before Friday night were 17th for pressure acts.

We were first last year.

Let that sink in.

We are not the amazing side we think we are and big games continue to prove that.

I know I'm jumping early but I reckon I've seen enough.

17th, that is such a massive drop from last year. Didn't realise it was that bad.

[binman 37,793]

41 minutes ago, COVID Dan said:

Possibly but you need to factor in we aren't in the top 10 for the stats we were last year and before Friday night were 17th for pressure acts.

We were first last year.

Let that sink in.

We are not the amazing side we think we are and big games continue to prove that.

I know I'm jumping early but I reckon I've seen enough now.

But what is the metric?

Which pressure related stat are you referring to?

There are a number of pressure stats, including the secret champion data one that gets bandied about.

 

[rpfc 27,391]

3 hours ago, binman said:

But what is the metric?

Which pressure related stat are you referring to?

There are a number of pressure stats, including the secret champion data one that gets bandied about.

 

Pick one. They’re all down. It’s an adamant fact - our forward pressure and the Demon Web is being exposed and we are butter to a very hot knife. 

I don’t get why this is not plain to see to everyone really.

Along with our connection into the 50 - it makes up our main issues against the best teams.

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

17 hours ago, binman said:

But what is the metric?

Which pressure related stat are you referring to?

There are a number of pressure stats, including the secret champion data one that gets bandied about.

 

I understand your point. It's not my stat, but it's as real as believing we were top 4 in all key stats last year. I'm sure you can pick and choose to prove any point.

From my point if view it's visual though you can see they can't stop sides when they're on a run. You can see petracca, Viney, Oliver fade out of games.

At the end of the day you can argue whatever you want, it doesn't really matter. It's what happens on the day.thay matters, and to date we have filled miserably in second halves in big games.

In 8 weeks time, one of us will end up being right and probably for the wrong reasons. 

[Binmans PA 25,897]

1 minute ago, COVID Dan said:

I understand your point. It's not my stat, but it's as real as believing we were top 4 in all key stats last year. I'm sure you can pick and choose to prove any point.

From my point if view it's visual though you can see they can't stop sides when they're on a run. You can see petracca, Viney, Oliver fade out of games.

At the end of the day you can argue whatever you want, it doesn't really matter. It's what happens on the day.thay matters, and to date we have filled miserably in second halves in big games.

In 8 weeks time, one of us will end up being right and probably for the wrong reasons. 

Oliver faded out of the 4th quarter with 14 possessions? Trac had 8, Viney had 10...

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

4 hours ago, A F said:

Oliver faded out of the 4th quarter with 14 possessions? Trac had 8, Viney had 10...

You do realise we lost?  

And we've lost consistently the same way all year. 

This thread assumes it will magically change when it matters. I disagree, I think the writing is on the wall.

I assume (hope) you've got something more to add than just possessions. Because for the final 6 mins of the game when it was there to be won Collingwood controlled the game.

We've consistently faded in effectiveness in 2nd halted in big games.

Scoring efficiency and finishing have been a high problem all year. The good teams are way way more efficient than us this year and I'm big games it shows.

Possessions is a useless stat and  loading is a load of crap.

You do realise we won all the key measurements and lost. It's pointless 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by COVID Dan