On 27/07/2022 at 21:10, Lucifers Hero said:

Why is it that people immediately go to 'loading' as the cause/reason behind performance change or training level without giving weight to other factors. 

And why is one heavy training session per Chandler considered 'loading'.  It makes sense that training levels will wax and wane from week to week depending on travel, days between games etc.  That doesn't mean we are loading or it correlates to game results.

Because the inability to run out games by result of fatigue directly impacts how well we can execute our gameplan and beat the opposition. If you are constantly second to the ball it is not necessarily a result of lack of "intent" or desperation but inherently due to fatigue.

I saw an interesting vision from David King on the watchlist pointing out our lack of zoning off the corridor and positioning ourselves so that teams are forced to bomb it down the line compared to last year. I tend to agree that that could be largely a result of discipline and unfortunately complacency. This basically "debunks" those posters who presume we've been worked out by teams avoiding Max down the wing or using short kicks through the middle to pick our defence apart. If we were to play with the level of focus and intense zoning like last year that crap wouldn't work for teams this year and they would still be forced wide. Get that back into our game and our defence is back to being rock solid but it is in the players hands to get back to that, the gameplan is clear just relies on the execution.

Fitness will in large parts help in this way and we should now only be trying to maintain our fitness which was likely achieved by our last two months of heavy loading. 

  On 27/07/2022 at 21:25, Deenooos_ said:

Because the inability to run out games by result of fatigue directly impacts how well we can execute our gameplan and beat the opposition. If you are constantly second to the ball it is not necessarily a result of lack of "intent" or desperation but inherently due to fatigue.

I saw an interesting vision from David King on the watchlist pointing out our lack of zoning off the corridor and positioning ourselves so that teams are forced to bomb it down the line compared to last year. I tend to agree that that could be largely a result of discipline and unfortunately complacency. This basically "debunks" those posters who presume we've been worked out by teams avoiding Max down the wing or using short kicks through the middle to pick our defence apart. If we were to play with the level of focus and intense zoning like last year that crap wouldn't work for teams this year and they would still be forced wide. Get that back into our game and our defence is back to being rock solid but it is in the players hands to get back to that, the gameplan is clear just relies on the execution.

Fitness will in large parts help in this way and we should now only be trying to maintain our fitness which was likely achieved by our last two months of heavy loading. 

I agree the inability to run out games can be the result of fatigue but there are many causes of fatigue not just 'loading'. 

Other than Brisbane we haven't run out games since before the Freo game.  Even our wins since have found us wanting in the last quarter.  Some on here have said we started loading a few weeks before the Freo game.  Since then, others have often said we are loading as do the most recent posts above.  And based on Chandler's interview the view is we are still loading...

That is a long time to be loading especially if it is as you say, two months of 'heavy' loading.

I also saw that vision.  iirc that vision didn't involve Max, per se.  It compared our defending the transition form the opps d50 last week to the the equivalent game last year.  Up and about last year, but not last week.  I agree with you about complacency and discipline being a factor.  And that it is up to the players and their execution of the game plan.

I'm with you that we haven't been worked out.  Most teams have tried something new, some have worked some haven't.  All clubs know each other team's game plans, strengths and weaknesses.  As you say we need to get our focus back to where it was last year. 

Edited July 27, 20222 yr by Lucifers Hero

  On 27/07/2022 at 21:10, Lucifers Hero said:

Why is it that people immediately go to 'loading' as the cause/reason behind performance change or training level without giving due weight to other factors. 

And why is one heavy training session per Chandler considered 'loading'.  It makes sense that training levels will wax and wane from week to week depending on travel, days between games etc.  That doesn't mean we are loading when there is an intense training session.  Nor that it means the whole team is doing the intense training session. 

There are lots of variables.  Listen to the various interviews this week and folks will see what hasn't been working and why training standards needed to lift.

Based on this thread we have been loading since round 7 or 8.

I chose not to go for an 9km run this morning, thus I deloaded my body. I'll go for a 9km run tomorrow and that's a 50% increase on what I did 3 days ago after a 2 week illness. I'm loading up so I can consume some beers whilst watching the game tomorrow...

Anyway... any variation in training is either loading up or deloading. It goes by a range of names such as  "heavier training block". Each week during a season the volume and intensity adjusts. So inherent in that is the notion that, each week is that there is an alteration in 'load'.

Again, if you're doing an intense training session, the volume will be shorter... that's a version of loading and/or deloading. Two processes are going on there.

Firstly from a physiological perspective the body is developing tolerance to fatigue, and also at a cellular/tissue level, so the body's window of tolerance is extended, less likelihood of soft tissue injuries. Further, psychologically the athlete is also developing tolerance/competence, so that when the context of stress comes (that's all about meaning, which I'll happily explain more about at some stage) - be it in a 'final' be it when 'fatigued' - skill execution at a proficient level can still occur.

You've seen the graphs, we've been loading all year so to speak Lucy - it's a full year program... aimed to be at our peak from a capacity to execute task on the field under high stress situations, both physiologically and psychologically. When's the most stressful time of the year? (each week for Demonlanders)... It's not Rounds 1-20 that's for sure.

Training Standards... ooof.... what does that even mean? Execution of behaviours irrespective of how you feel? Holding each other accountable? The evidence is training loads influences behavioral output be it in training or on game day.

Perhaps I should also start a thread  for the anti loading propaganda merchants 😇  - "In Season - It's an attitude problem, training standards need to lift - put your conjecture here"....

**actually I'm going to continue my little spiel...

Footballers aren't scientists. And what I mean by that is if a media commentator asks a question - a footballer gives it, the assumption is made that the footballer knows what he or she is talking about.

They can give their perspective on something, it doesn't mean they understand objectively the drivers.

The reality is though - and let me use an example in my own work - if a client comes in to see me about anxiety for example, they can give me their thoughts (literally the thoughts the notice and what they feel) - but they don't have the insight at a scientific level to understand the process that creates  and maintains the anxiety...which then influences behaviour under stress and pressure... you'd never speak about your daily behaviours at homer or at work needing to lift...

The best people to ask questions about training would be the Performance Managers... of course they'll never share. But I guarantee you this... they wouldn't be talking about 'training standards' as been the problem.

 

 

Edited July 27, 20222 yr by Engorged Onion

  On 27/07/2022 at 22:08, Engorged Onion said:

I chose not to go for an 9km run this morning, thus I deloaded my body. I'll go for a 9km run tomorrow and that's a 50% increase on what I did 3 days ago after a 2 week illness.

Any variation in training is either loading up or deloading. It goes by a range of names such as  "heavier training block". Each week during a season the volume and intensity adjusts. So inherent in that is the notion that, each week is that there is an alteration in 'load'.

Again, if you're doing an intense training session, the volume will be shorter... that's a version of loading and/or deloading. Two processes are going on there.

Firstly from a physiological perspective the body is developing tolerance to fatigue, but also at a cellular/tissue level. Further, psychologically the athlete is also developing tolerance/competence, so that when the context of stress comes (that's all about meaning, which I'll happily explain more about at some stage) - be it in a 'final' be it when 'fatigued' - skill execution at a proficient level can still occur.

You've seen the graphs, we've been loading all year so to speak Lucy - it's a full year program... aimed to be at our peak from a capacity to execute task on the field under high stress situations, both physiologically and psychologically. When's the most stressful time of the year? (each week for Demonlanders)... It's not Rounds 1-20 that's for sure.

Training Standards... ooof.... what does that even mean? Execution of behaviours irrespective of how you feel? Holding each other accountable? If after the reading all the posts on these threads, (that are evidenced based in science) - it takes a leap of faith for you to understand how training loads influences behavioral output be it in training or on game day, I've got nothing else to add that could possibly convince you.

Perhaps I should also start a thread  for the anti loading propaganda merchants  - "In Season - It's an attitude problem, training standards need to lift - put your conjecture here".

I've acknowledge many many times I believe in loading progrmas.  My issue is and always has been that loading is the go-to reason why we don't perform in games or fail to run them out.  Again, I'll say fatigue has many causes.

Training standards covers more than loading.  I'm not thick.  I understand loading and deloading.  I get the natural rythyms of a training program and I have no doubt it influences behaviours.  No convincing required on that front.  There is no reason to be condescending.  If you put me in the anit-loading-propaganda-merchants I am seriously offended.

  On 27/07/2022 at 21:10, Lucifers Hero said:

Why is it that people immediately go to 'loading' as the cause/reason behind performance change or training level without giving due weight to other factors. 

And why is one heavy training session per Chandler considered 'loading'.  It makes sense that training levels will wax and wane from week to week depending on travel, days between games etc.  That doesn't mean we are loading when there is an intense training session.  Nor that it means the whole team is doing the intense training session. 

There are lots of variables.  Listen to the various interviews this week and folks will see what hasn't been working and why training standards needed to lift.

Based on this thread we have been loading since round 7 or 8.

Stop talking sense, it does not belong in this thread.

According to some on here we've been loading the moment we lost to Freo.

  On 27/07/2022 at 22:24, Lucifers Hero said:

There is no reason to be condescending.  If you put me in the anit-loading-propaganda-merchants I am seriously offende

Sincere apologies if that came across as condescending. On reflection/re-reading, I can see that it could come across that way.

I don't see you as as anti-loading - yet there seems to be an ongoing theme that people are positioning those that advocate for loading as a sense making tool - that they think it's the ONLY factor...

  On 27/07/2022 at 21:44, Lucifers Hero said:

I agree the inability to run out games can be the result of fatigue but there are many causes of fatigue not just 'loading'. 

Other than Brisbane we haven't run out games since before the Freo game.  Even our wins since have found us wanting in the last quarter.  Some on here have said we started loading a few weeks before the Freo game.  Since then, others have often said we are loading as do the most recent posts above.  And based on Chandler's interview the view is we are still loading...

That is a long time to be loading especially if it is as you say, two months of 'heavy' loading.

I also saw that vision.  iirc that vision didn't involve Max, per se.  It compared our defending the transition form the opps d50 last week to the the equivalent game last year.  Up and about last year, but not last week.  I agree with you about complacency and discipline being a factor.  And that it is up to the players and their execution of the game plan.

I'm with you that we haven't been worked out.  Most teams have tried something new, some have worked some haven't.  All clubs know how each other team's game plans, strengths and weaknesses.  As you say we need to get our focus back to where it was last year. 

I hear you. As far as I remember we played awful football between rounds 12-19 last year but never seemed unable to run out games in second halves or got "run on top of" like what has happened recently. I think this was in large parts due to the opposition we faced vs who we faced this year. If anything we have played better this year as we actually had very decent leads in games whereas last year during the loading "affected" games we were just crap the whole way through.

Funnily enough all of our losses this year have happened during our loading period (the timing of when we load is no certainty, just speculation) that we don't even have a gauge at where we stand against opposition when we aren't affected by fatigue, and as others have stated the Brisbane game was presumably after a short taper in-between our two blocks.

This is why Friday night will be really interesting. There is no more loading happening at this point in the season but rather only maintaining the fitness we have. I feel comfortable assuming this based on the sheer difference in our running ability from round 20 onwards last year. How about we wait and see what Friday brings and if we can identify an ability to finish the game off strongly and not capitulate, otherwise there are far deeper issues with why this may be happening.

Edited July 27, 20222 yr by Deenooos_

  On 27/07/2022 at 22:27, Engorged Onion said:

Sincere apologies if that came across as condescending. On reflection/re-reading, I can see that it could come across that way.

I don't see you as as anti-loading - yet there seems to be an ongoing theme that people are positioning those that advocate for loading as a sense making tool - that they think it's the ONLY factor...

Thank you.

That is because the advocates of loading in this thread rarely discuss in depth, other factors that may affect performance/reasons for intense training, and for some their 'go to' position is loading when our performance is lacking.  So it comes across as the only/dominant factor.   

Edited July 27, 20222 yr by Lucifers Hero

  On 27/07/2022 at 22:24, Lucifers Hero said:

I've acknowledge many many times I believe in loading progrmas.  My issue is and always has been that loading is the go-to reason why we don't perform in games or fail to run them out.  Again, I'll say fatigue has many causes.

Training standards covers more than loading.  I'm not thick.  I understand loading and deloading.  I get the natural rythyms of a training program and I have no doubt it influences behaviours.  No convincing required on that front.  There is no reason to be condescending.  If you put me in the anit-loading-propaganda-merchants I am seriously offended.

Something I'm finding is that there's now more talk about physical conditioning and less talk of the mental aspect and how resilient the side is. Eg. the leads we've blown are mainly due to loading but mental toughness, confidence and the psychological side don't get a second glance lately. 

Edited July 27, 20222 yr by layzie

  On 27/07/2022 at 22:55, Deenooos_ said:

I hear you. As far as I remember we played awful football between rounds 12-19 last year but never seemed unable to run out games in second halves and got "run on top of". I think this was in large parts due to the opposition we faced vs who we faced this year. If anything we have played better this year as we actually had very decent leads in games whereas last year during the loading "affected" games we were just crap the whole way through.

Funnily enough all of our losses this year have happened during our loading period (the timing of when we load is no certainty, just speculation) that we don't even have a gauge at where we stand against opposition when we aren't affected by fatigue, and as others have stated the Brisbane game was presumably after a short taper in-between our two blocks.

This is why Friday night will be really interesting. There is no more loading happening at this point in the season but rather only maintaining the fitness we have. I feel comfortable assuming this based on the sheer difference in our running ability from round 20 onwards last year. How about we wait and see what Friday brings and if we can identify an ability to finish the game off strongly and not capitulate, otherwise there are far deeper issues with why this may be happening.

Good points;

Re the last sentence:  I think there have been deeper issues in recent times.

Interviews this week have been telling:

• Brayshaw (SEN) said it really isn't a sort of arrogance but more not doing team things.
• Goodwin (press conf) several times said we need to get back to everyone buying-in.  Big reference to the need to be more ruthless.
• Petracca (AFL360) several times referred to complacency creeping in and players leaving (pressure) work to a team mate.

Petracca said coaches have been telling them to not look at this time last year and expect the wins to the finals to be repeated.  Something like: Forget last year, they need to make it happen this year.

However, I think the 'deeper issues' they mention have been addressed particularly in the last week.  Some soul searching has been happening. 

On the positive side, each talked with conviction that we know the issues and we can fix them. 

Looking forward to a good win on Friday night.  Will the reasons be the end of loading or players changing the things in the interviews?  We will never know really know.  Probably both.

Edited July 27, 20222 yr by Lucifers Hero

  On 27/07/2022 at 23:05, layzie said:

Something I'm finding is that there's now more talk about physical conditioning and less talk of the mental aspect and how resilient the side is. Eg. the leads we've blown are mainly due to loading but mental toughness, confidence and the psychological side don't get a second glance lately. 

It's happened too often now to not have been addressed though. Wouldn't the coaches have talked about this right after it happened a second time against Sydney or have we become extremely soft? A good side shouldn't give up those kinds of leads and it's been happening far too often to not learn from.

I can't see us being that stubborn to have not learnt after the third time to be conscious of not dropping off that to me the only explanation is not being able to maintain our defence/gameplan for long enough due to fatigue.

It's been happening to Richmond all year so you may have a point there, however we are a much better side than them and they are well past their peak. Are we a 1 hit wonder? Time will tell but while we haven't been proven wrong yet (to be seen Friday) I remain to hold onto the belief it is largely due to loading.

  On 27/07/2022 at 23:19, Deenooos_ said:

It's happened too often now to not have been addressed though. Wouldn't the coaches have talked about this right after it happened a second time against Sydney or have we become extremely soft? A good side shouldn't give up those kinds of leads and it's been happening far too often to not learn from.

I can't see us being that stubborn to have not learnt after the third time to be conscious of not dropping off that to me the only explanation is not being able to maintain our defence/gameplan for long enough due to fatigue.

It's been happening to Richmond all year so you may have a point there, however we are a much better side than them and they are well past their peak. Are we a 1 hit wonder? Time will tell but while we haven't been proven wrong yet (to be seen Friday) I remain to hold onto the belief it is largely due to loading.

That's right and Binman is usually the first to say that he thinks there are other factors but that loading is the most significant one. I certainly don't disagree with it but I'd hate to think the mental side has been neglected because as we know it's probably the much harder one to fix.

  On 27/07/2022 at 22:55, Deenooos_ said:

I think this was in large parts due to the opposition we faced vs who we faced this year.

Yep, that's been in my mind.

Our draw this year put us up against the better sides right in the loading period which hasn't helped.

Onward we go to Friday night.

  On 27/07/2022 at 22:57, Lucifers Hero said:

Thank you.

That is because the advocates of loading in this thread rarely discuss in depth, other factors that may affect performance/reasons for intense training, and for some their 'go to' position is loading when our performance is lacking.  So it comes across as the only factor.   

The reason I am convinced of the significance of loading is because I am yet to read or hear of one other reasonable or logical explanation for the shape of MFC's 2021 season.  Why did we win 9 straight then suddenly become a 50% team for the next 9 games (4W-1D-4L)?  Why then did we go into a 7 game winning streak that crescendos with what many commentators say was one of the most dominate finals series ever?  What were the trigger's of such widely different form lines?  And why, when you look at the formlines of other premiership teams over the last decade is it a pattern that is repeated so often?  If there is a better explanation to why very good teams have mid-year slumps, then I'm ready to hear it.

  On 27/07/2022 at 23:29, rjay said:

Yep, that's been in my mind.

Our draw this year put us up against the better sides right in the loading period which hasn't helped.

Onward we go to Friday night.

The flip side of this is that those better teams are not loading to the extent we are... meaning come September we may have the edge...

Haha One things for sure, after all his positioning on loading, Friday night’s game will either greatly enhance or alternatively, possibly destroy the credibility of one @binman. We all hope (but not yet fully believe) it will be the former, but secretly dread it could well be the latter. Just in case the worst happens, if I was @binman, I’d be getting together with Luci to explore her “other factors” that might help explain this disaster, and help start to resurrect his reputation. 

  On 27/07/2022 at 23:23, layzie said:

I certainly don't disagree with it but I'd hate to think the mental side has been neglected because as we know it's probably the much harder one to fix.

Yes you are right if there is also a large mental aspect playing a part then that’s another story and problem.

However I also made a post earlier in the week after I read through some studies and experiences throughout elite sports where not only fatigue is a side effect of loading but also mental confidence leading to skill errors. These would no doubt contribute and affect a players psychological state onfield as their physical ability is somewhat hampered.

But as Lucifer has said the fact it is being mentioned by Gus on air and Goody/Petracca talking about complacency creeping in also has it’s own merit.

Let’s hope this is the main thing they have worked on this week reminding the players what the goal actually is, GF at the “G” to instill some enthusiasm back into the group.

  On 27/07/2022 at 23:34, Neil Crompton said:

Haha One things for sure, after all his positioning on loading, Friday night’s game will either greatly enhance or alternatively, possibly destroy the credibility of one @binman. We all hope (but not yet fully believe) it will be the former, but secretly dread it could well be the latter. Just in case the worst happens, if I was @binman, I’d be getting together with Luci to explore her “other factors” that might help explain this disaster, and help start to resurrect his reputation. 

Haha.

Now it is @binmanin the red corner and @Lucifers Heroin the blue corner🙃?  Good colours.

We will win Friday night but it won't mean either position is more correct as the result will be an interplay of both as all games are.. 

His reputation is safe.

Edited July 27, 20222 yr by Lucifers Hero

I don’t think anyone loses, regardless of what happens on Friday/for the rest of the year. I’m grateful for the considered theories on this thread - we can’t all be right (or maybe we can?!) but these ideas have been compelling and thoughtful: certainly much better than espousing thoughts of players ‘not trying’.

I don't think Kade's comments indicate we are still loading. I took it as the level of pressure in the match sim and drills had increased over previous weeks where the focus had been on kilometres in the legs and non-football activity (weights etc). This would hopefully be reflected in the in-game pressure being dialed up. 

  On 27/07/2022 at 23:34, Deenooos_ said:

Yes you are right if there is also a large mental aspect playing a part then that’s another story and problem.

However I also made a post earlier in the week after I read through some studies and experiences throughout elite sports where not only fatigue is a side effect of loading but also mental confidence leading to skill errors. These would no doubt contribute and affect a players psychological state onfield as their physical ability is somewhat hampered.

But as Lucifer has said the fact it is being mentioned by Gus on air and Goody/Petracca talking about complacency creeping in also has it’s own merit.

Let’s hope this is the main thing they have worked on this week reminding the players what the goal actually is, GF at the “G” to instill some enthusiasm back into the group.

Interesting! I'd love to get a look at some of those studies Deenooos. Are they available online?

They've had the media blowtorch on them all week this week. Questioning their pressure levels, some even suggesting they pick and choose when to make efforts now. I really hope this lights the biggest fire under their A***s this Friday. 

  On 27/07/2022 at 23:42, Lucifers Hero said:

Haha.

Now it is @binmanin the red corner and @Lucifers Heroin the blue corner🙃?  Good colours.

 

I'd buy that on Pay Per View.

Sort of reminds me of that show in the 90s Celebrity Deathmatch! 

  On 28/07/2022 at 00:11, layzie said:

Interesting! I'd love to get a look at some of those studies Deenooos. Are they available online?

They've had the media blowtorch on them all week this week. Questioning their pressure levels, some even suggesting they pick and choose when to make efforts now. I really hope this lights the biggest fire under their A***s this Friday. 

I'm honestly not sure anymore where specifically I read about it but it was specifically mentioned and observed in sports where athletes not only require fitness and power but also skill i.e. Soccer, Football etc. You can just google around "negative affect of General Adaptation Syndrome on professional athletes", something should come up.

I found these two diagrams quite interesting. We are clearly aiming to reach the "super-compensation" stage and maintain it over the next 8 weeks for finals. 

 

So basically reaching super-compensation and maintaining this level is the key and goal here. Reducing training too much and you lose fitness, train too much and you go into prolonged fatigue. Finding the sweet spot is of course in the hands of our High Performance coaches.

  On 28/07/2022 at 00:50, Deenooos_ said:

I'm honestly not sure anymore where specifically I read about it but it was specifically mentioned and observed in sports where athletes not only require fitness and power but also skill i.e. Soccer, Football etc. You can just google around "negative affect of General Adaptation Syndrome on professional athletes", something should come up.

I found these two diagrams quite interesting. We are clearly aiming to reach the "super-compensation" stage and maintain it over the next 8 weeks for finals. 

 

So basically reaching super-compensation and maintaining this level is the key and goal here. Reducing training too much and you lose fitness, train too much and you go into prolonged fatigue. Finding the sweet spot is of course in the hands of our High Performance coaches.

Cheers for that. It's a real balancing act and something you can see teams prioritising when it comes to getting the right coaches for it. 

  On 27/07/2022 at 23:31, Vipercrunch said:

The reason I am convinced of the significance of loading is because I am yet to read or hear of one other reasonable or logical explanation for the shape of MFC's 2021 season.  Why did we win 9 straight then suddenly become a 50% team for the next 9 games (4W-1D-4L)?  Why then did we go into a 7 game winning streak that crescendos with what many commentators say was one of the most dominate finals series ever?  What were the trigger's of such widely different form lines?  And why, when you look at the formlines of other premiership teams over the last decade is it a pattern that is repeated so often?  If there is a better explanation to why very good teams have mid-year slumps, then I'm ready to hear it.

A clear indicator that i have found when we are supposedly increased our training is the lessed ability of our small forwards to apply pressure.

This is a clear performance indicator for our team when this is not happening the rest of our team defensive mechanisms go to 💩

The Small Forward role is the most taxing role on the ground.

When Charlie, Kozi, Bedders, ANB and co are on with their intensity teams have no chance of breaking us down.

It allows us to set up the rest of the ground to form the much vaunted Dees Squeeze.