The very, very contentious 50 for Dissent Rule

[Macca 16,972]

5 minutes ago, loges said:

Agree to disagree, a refusal to a polite request from the player would then be disrespecting the player, it cuts both ways.

I don't want our players wasting their time talking to an umpire

Just get on with it and play the game

[Ethan Tremblay 30,861]

Be interesting to see what Brad Scott has to say in his upcoming press conference. I can’t see the AFL backing down but I’d like to see them get rid of the raising of the arms rule. Just that, thank you. 

[Ethan Tremblay 30,861]

2 minutes ago, Macca said:

And that's a good story and I don't doubt you for a minute ET ... but we do have an issue with the umpiring of the sport (can we make it easier please)

And at junior level there has been a huge shortfall of umpires for decades (in other words, the shortfall is not a new thing)

Absolutely agree. That’s why it will be interesting to speak with my mates son. I couldn’t have done the job as a young fella without any or much life experience. I would have cried getting yelled at by the supporters in the crowd. 

[daisycutter 29,616]

1 minute ago, Macca said:

I like your optimism but the grey areas are in abundance.  And have been for decades.  People were talking about umpires in the same way in the 60's

Marking contests, In the back, holding the ball, holding the man, around the neck, ruck contests, chopping of arms, the bump etc etc are all contentious

Good luck trying to get all of the above clear-cut.  Making the umpires professional will help but the myriad of other issues will remain (unless we change the make-up of the sport)

i never said get them all clear cut........i did say "some" could be eliminated and some better defined. no big deal in that.

all sports have grey areas, and i'm not claiming afl is an easy game to umpire.....just that it could be improved

i can live with grey areas, 50:50s and occasional missed frees. what i want is better consistency umpire to umpire and week to week 

the 2 big issues in our game at the moment is umpiring and set shot goal kicking

the former would be greatly improved with full time professional umpires just like all the other operational areas of the afl. i don't understand why you would even try to argue against that

[adonski 12,160]

Get rid of umpires

Everytime there's a possible free kick just chuck a survey up on twitter 

[Pates 9,660]

I think for the tippy touchy ones it should be accumulative, the umpires can communicate with each other and say the team is on a warning for dissent. If it continues then by all means pay a 50m penalty, could even start at a 30m penalty and then get upgraded. I think the thing that is frustrating fans the most is that for something that is relatively lower grade compared to other infractions, it’s punished so severely.  

[tiers 2,840]

I have already posted on this topic but I have time to reflect and reconsider how this fiasco could be rectified.

In my opinion, hands out and rolling eyes is not disrespect or abuse and should not be penalised, especially with an over the top and at times cruelly imposed 50m penalty.

The 50m penalty is a relic of Sheedy's days of gamesmanship when coaching the bombers and has always been a poor  response to the then problem. Today it is an anachronism in a professional sport.

My preferred option would be, as suggested in an earlier post, that incidences of abuse towards umpires be subject to a heavy monetary penalty to be decided after the game in a  match review process. The monetary penalty should be in the $5k+ range for both the player involved and for the club.

For repeat offenders who might scoff at the monetary amount, the number of transgressions would be totaled over a season and, if there are more than say 5 penalties, the club would lose 2 premiership points. A 2 point penalty would still allow a club to remain above other clubs with fewer wins but might relegate them to a lower ranking when compared to clubs with the same number of wins. Could affect finals or order in finals.

Adopting this method will force the clubs themselves to police the players.

[Ethan Tremblay 30,861]

Well done to Brad Scott for quoting Spider-Man “with great power comes great responsibility”. 

[sue 9,107]

Here is a report on the reasons for lack of umpires commissioned by the AFL in 2021.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-12/afl-umpire-shortage-in-community-australian-rules/100903628

Looks like abuse is the 8th (yes, eighth) biggest reason at 6%

• Work and study commitments (18 per cent)
• Health/injury/age related (14 per cent)
• Inadequate support/pay (13 per cent)
• Lack of enjoyment (10 per cent)

Abuse, at 6 per cent, was eighth on the list and half of inadequate support and pay (which is the one thing the AFL could actually fix).  Even if you argue the lack of enjoyment is entirely due to abuse (which is a dubious assumption) and should be added to the 6%, it is still not dominant.

Read that article and you will see all sorts of reasons for the lack of umpires, including a big drop off due to Covid possiby causing the AFL to hit the panic button.

So what is the point of all this over-reaction about abuse?   The AFL finds it easier to fiddle with the rules than do anything that requires some hard work.

Edited April 19, 2022 by sue

[Demon17 5,188]

40 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Well done to Brad Scott for quoting Spider-Man “with great power comes great responsibility”. 

Brad Scott's statement released just now is pathetic for a senior exec in charge of ops.

If he was sincere about fixing the issue he would acknowledge the incorrect decsion yesterday giving Hawkins  free which actually led to the understandably human respone from the Hawks players . Fault on both sides.  But no, that would never do.

That would go a long way to keeping the public on side.

You can [censored] about the lack of umpires respect Brad but this case was a gold-plated opportunity to showyour'e  in touch with the emotion of the game and has its best interests at heart.

It will cost someone a flag, but then it's too late. 

[Macca 16,972]

59 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

The former would be greatly improved with full time professional umpires just like all the other operational areas of the afl. i don't understand why you would even try to argue against that

I'm not arguing against full time umpires

What I am saying is that the grey areas will still be there

So we'd have total professionals trying to make correct decisions in grey areas that are to say the least, contentious

But make them full time as it will help

 I believe the AFL are going to go hard on dissent & abuse and try and stamp it out

So it will remain a big topic especially with the 50m penalty involved

But towards the end of the season, we may not see too many indiscretions ... let's face it, in a lot of cases a 50m penalty leads to a shot on goal

So dispute the umpires decision and it could easily cost your team a goal

So the free kick count per game amounts to about 40-50 per game ... that's about 1 free kick per player, per game

Is it asking too much for a player to keep his emotions in check once per game? (on average)

 

[Robbie57 2,020]

Did Brad Scott announce the 50 metre penalties are to be applied for supporter dissent? (Other than at West Coast and Dogs games where the home crowds helpfully pointing out the umpires oversights or errors will be immediately corrected.)

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

Was writing a paper for work regarding upcoming technology trends and how to pivot towards these and it occurred to me that in the not too distant future we will probably have done away with human umpires and have the game fully officiated by AI.

I think one of these will solve any issues with player dissent. 😄

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

1 hour ago, tiers said:

The 50m penalty is a relic of Sheedy's days of gamesmanship when coaching the bombers and has always been a poor  response to the then problem. Today it is an anachronism in a professional sport.

For someone who is held in the esteem that Sheedy is, he sure has done a lot of damage to the game. The travesty of interchange is another of his brainchildren. 

 

 

39 minutes ago, sue said:

• Work and study commitments (18 per cent)
• Health/injury/age related (14 per cent)
• Inadequate support/pay (13 per cent)
• Lack of enjoyment (10 per cent)

Imagine umpiring as a vocation where you get paid as you progress through the ranks, have time for study (as I can't see it necessarily being a "full time" gig), and get a super/retirement fund when you exit the game.

 

39 minutes ago, sue said:

The AFL finds it easier to fiddle with the rules than do anything that requires some hard work.

Their track record is not so good, so why do they keep doing it? They are the worst people to be deciding what the "improvements" to the rules should be. Third man up, "insufficient intent" ... areas where improvements are obvious to everyone except the AFL.

 

[sue 9,107]

15 minutes ago, Macca said:

....

So the free kick count per game amounts to about 40-50 per game ... that's about 1 free kick per player, per game

Is it asking too much for a player to keep his emotions in check once per game? (on average)

 

Dubious use of stats. When you get a Hawkins dive, more than one player has their emotional constraints tested to breaking point.  Given the way play is these days with lots of players near the ball, you are seriously underestimating the numbers. 

 

[Macca 16,972]

2 minutes ago, sue said:

Dubious use of stats. When you get a Hawkins dive, more than one player has their emotional constraints tested to breaking point.  Given the way play is these days with lots of players near the ball, you are seriously underestimating the numbers. 

 

Breaking point??!!

Hysterical much

[daisycutter 29,616]

4 minutes ago, Macca said:

Breaking point??!!

Hysterical much

well, given you like stats, macca

i'm  curious what your response is to sue's "report on the reasons for lack of umpires commissioned by the AFL in 2021" posted above

[Macca 16,972]

53 minutes ago, sue said:

Here is a report on the reasons for lack of umpires commissioned by the AFL in 2021.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-12/afl-umpire-shortage-in-community-australian-rules/100903628

Looks like abuse is the 8th (yes, eighth) biggest reason at 6%

• Work and study commitments (18 per cent)
• Health/injury/age related (14 per cent)
• Inadequate support/pay (13 per cent)
• Lack of enjoyment (10 per cent)

Abuse, at 6 per cent, was eighth on the list and half of inadequate support and pay (which is the one thing the AFL could actually fix).  Even if you argue the lack of enjoyment is entirely due to abuse (which is a dubious assumption) and should be added to the 6%, it is still not dominant.

Read that article and you will see all sorts of reasons for the lack of umpires, including a big drop off due to Covid possiby causing the AFL to hit the panic button.

So what is the point of all this over-reaction about abuse?   The AFL finds it easier to fiddle with the rules than do anything that requires some hard work.

Who is going to admit that they don't want to be an umpire because of the potential abuse?  Truthful answers?  I doubt it

The numbers aren't real ... it's like the polls in the USA before the 2016 election.  Numerous people wouldn't admit that they were going to vote for Trump but did so anyway

And he trailed in every poll bar 1 ... often miles behind

You need to read between the lines

[Macca 16,972]

Just now, daisycutter said:

well, given you like stats, macca

i'm  curious what your response is to sue's "report on the reasons for lack of umpires commissioned by the AFL in 2021" posted above

See my post above (you won't like it)

Hey, I've had my yearly beef against the umpire haters ... you can all go back to dominating the game day threads and post match threads (and other, numerous threads) with your torrents of dissatisfaction re the umpiring

I won't be reading.  Wouldn't waste my time

[sue 9,107]

7 minutes ago, Macca said:

Breaking point??!!

Hysterical much

What else is it but 'breaking point' if you are constrained by penalities if you do something and you do it anyway .  Rather than pick on words, address the fact that your stats were misleading.

[daisycutter 29,616]

1 minute ago, Macca said:

See my post above (you won't like it)

Hey, I've had my yearly beef against the umpire haters ... you can all go back to dominating the game day threads and post match threads (and other, numerous threads) with your torrents of dissatisfaction re the umpiring

I won't be reading.  Wouldn't waste my time

m'kay

[Macca 16,972]

Just now, sue said:

What else is it but 'breaking point' if you are constrained by penalities if you do something and you do it anyway .  Rather than pick on words, address the fact that your stats were misleading.

No, I'm done here

You and countless others can have your way ... hope you enjoy all that moaning!! haha

Won't get you anywhere ... you may as well be howling at the moon

[loges 6,767]

2 hours ago, Macca said:

I don't want our players wasting their time talking to an umpire

Just get on with it and play the game

Love the way you take the high ground regarding everything re umpires

[sue 9,107]

10 minutes ago, Macca said:

Who is going to admit that they don't want to be an umpire because of the potential abuse?  Truthful answers?  I doubt it

The numbers aren't real ... it's like the polls in the USA before the 2016 election.  Numerous people wouldn't admit that they were going to vote for Trump but did so anyway

And he trailed in every poll bar 1 ... often miles behind

You need to read between the lines

That is laughable.  You have repeatedly stated that abuse is the cause of lack of junior umpires.  Yet when presented with the AFL Review showing abuse is not the main problem, you invoke Trump's polls.  I can see why some would be embarrassed to admit to supporting Trump's policies, but why should ex-umpires be shy about  complaiining about the abuse.

Edited April 19, 2022 by sue

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

15 minutes ago, Macca said:

Breaking point??!!

Hysterical much

Did you see Frost? He was fair dinkum ready to burst.