On 29/10/2023 at 12:07, bandicoot said:

I seem to be missing something. Brown won mic metro B&F and picked as a starter in VIC best 22 yet is only considered a rookie? 

I agree shown plenty for someone that can’t even get a look in 

13 minutes ago, deelusions from afar said:

What's the advantage for Brown or MFC in him nominating and us accepting?

22 minutes ago, deelusions from afar said:

What's the advantage for Brown or MFC in him nominating and us accepting?

I understand:

-For the player it increases the likelihood they get to the club their dad played at and they have probably had a relationship with during their adolescence. If they want to go there (and have familiarity and certainty) it increases their chances of getting there. If they just want to play AFL anywhere, then nominating is a neutral (neither positive or negative). If they don't want to play at that club (maybe concerned they'd be too far down the pecking order for their position?) then nominating is probably bad.

-For the club: they get a 20% points discount if they match a bid.

 

Personally, unless the player is concerned about that club, I could only see nominating as increasing their chances to be drafted.

Perhaps there is an "embarrassment" associated with nominating and not getting drafted?

Edited October 31, 20231 yr by deanox

If the only reason we don't draft or rookie list him is due to lack of a list spot, then the spotlight needs to go onto Tim Lamb. 

After Trade Week, he was questioned about our forward line, and didn't mention T Mac, BBB, Schache or Melksham. All of them might be considered dead wood next season. The circumstances behind BBB, T Mac and Melksham I can partially understand, but Schache getting another year is mind boggling. 

If the club think that Kynan Brown has AFL potential, then they have to make the call on Melksham.

Edit. They've made the call on Melksham to rookie list.

Edited October 31, 20231 yr by mo64

16 minutes ago, mo64 said:

If the only reason we don't draft or rookie list him is due to lack of a list spot, then the spotlight needs to go onto Tim Lamb. 

After Trade Week, he was questioned about our forward line, and didn't mention T Mac, BBB, Schache or Melksham. All of them might be considered dead wood next season. The circumstances behind BBB, T Mac and Melksham I can partially understand, but Schache getting another year is mind boggling. 

If the club think that Kynan Brown has AFL potential, then they have to make the call on Melksham.

Edit. They've made the call on Melksham to rookie list.

If we don't draft him I suspect there will be a pretty strong reason, not an accident. Given we have been planning our list for a long time and known about Brown.

Maybe we have too many small players?

Maybe we don't need another late draft flanker/mid?

Maybe we don't think he's attributes will translate to AFL or our game plan?

Maybe we don't rate him in the top X picks and feel we already have similar better young talent?

9 minutes ago, deanox said:

If we don't draft him I suspect there will be a pretty strong reason, not an accident. Given we have been planning our list for a long time and known about Brown.

Maybe we have too many small players?

Maybe we don't need another late draft flanker/mid?

Maybe we don't think he's attributes will translate to AFL or our game plan?

Maybe we don't rate him in the top X picks and feel we already have similar better young talent?

I'm sure they have reasons, but that doesn't mean that they'll be proven correct. Our list management has been baffling over the past 2 years. Starting with acquiring Grundy and ending with re-signing Schache. 

If anything, I think we're lacking in young midfield talent.

If the club isn’t taking Kynan maybe they have their eyes on taking Orlando Turner as a rookie or Sam van Rooyen as a rookie

This is what a clunky, injured, top heavy mess looks like. Having Brown on the list next year is a huge liability.

Will always respect and love the guy for 21 but reality is he is the most overcooked player I can remember ever going into an AFL season for any club.

And it absolutely denies an 18 y.o an opportunity. Maybe not Kynan Brown but definitely some 18 year old. 

Edited October 31, 20231 yr by Wizard of Koz

7 hours ago, Wizard of Koz said:

This is what a clunky, injured, top heavy mess looks like. Having Brown on the list next year is a huge liability.

Will always respect and love the guy for 21 but reality is he is the most overcooked player I can remember ever going into an AFL season for any club.

And it absolutely denies an 18 y.o an opportunity. Maybe not Kynan Brown but definitely some 18 year old. 

What a crock! Do you actually have any idea how he is travelling? Do you see the time he puts into the girls program?  How much work does he puts into developing our young key forwards during the season?

 If he was completely cooked and had no chance of getting through a season, do you really think he would be continuing? 

From my understanding we do have the flexibility to take Brown, either with a late pick or a rookie pick depending on what happens on draft night. It would mean we would have one extra on the primary list and one less rookie than last year. Given the amount of cap space we let go this off-season I feel like that is a possibility (believe rookie listed playrs have a certain allocation outside the cap).

I feel like we will wait and see what happens and by saying we are only taking 2 picks at the draft, they may hope that puts other teams off making a bid on him and he slides through to the rookie draft.

35 minutes ago, Demons11 said:

What a crock! Do you actually have any idea how he is travelling? Do you see the time he puts into the girls program?  How much work does he puts into developing our young key forwards during the season?

 If he was completely cooked and had no chance of getting through a season, do you really think he would be continuing? 

For those values - well assessed, 11 - balanced against the apparent state of his knee/s, does a rookie spot suit? (à la Melksham, retained for similar good reasons) Is one available and would it comply contractually, however?

I'm presuming (probably incorrectly!) that the 'senior' list spot freed up is of more value in recruitment...

1 hour ago, Demons11 said:

What a crock! Do you actually have any idea how he is travelling? Do you see the time he puts into the girls program?  How much work does he puts into developing our young key forwards during the season?

 If he was completely cooked and had no chance of getting through a season, do you really think he would be continuing? 

I have 2 eyes! You have one obviously.

Money, money and money. That's why he is telling himself he is not cooked. 

2 hours ago, Demons11 said:

What a crock! Do you actually have any idea how he is travelling? Do you see the time he puts into the girls program?  How much work does he puts into developing our young key forwards during the season?

 If he was completely cooked and had no chance of getting through a season, do you really think he would be continuing? 

So then move him into a development specialist role undertaking the women's and men's program full time. 

No one is saying to completely toss Brown off to the side as his role within the women's program is vital for their development.

But I can understand @Wizard of Kozpoint of view from a list management perspective. His body is absolutely cooked and hasn't played a full 22 game season since 2019.

His body has slowly been on the decline since and there is a level of frustration that each year he's missing games with knee injuries time after time when our forward line has been at its vulnerable. 

I love Benny B and what he's done for this club off field. But to be honest I'd rather have a developing tall or the extra list spot for a fit and healthy kid who can just develope away then a guy that really is injury prone and missing games through the same injury he's battled throughout his AFL career.

If we can find him a full time off field role in any capacity then that's a huge win for us.

22 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

If we can find him a full time off field role in any capacity then that's a huge win for us.

I think what many are missing is the cultural aspect of keeping him on, and Tmac as well.  It's very hard to ask Petts to stay and honour his contract if you force BBB or Tmac to take early retirement particularly when it will most likely cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars.  I like the fact we are honouring our word, it sends a strong message that can have substantial benefits in unseen areas.

These issues are never clear or easy but a balancing act to find the best overall solution.  We don't know all the facts and I suggest you support the Club in its decision.

23 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

I think what many are missing is the cultural aspect of keeping him on, and Tmac as well.  It's very hard to ask Petts to stay and honour his contract if you force BBB or Tmac to take early retirement particularly when it will most likely cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars.  I like the fact we are honouring our word, it sends a strong message that can have substantial benefits in unseen areas.

These issues are never clear or easy but a balancing act to find the best overall solution.  We don't know all the facts and I suggest you support the Club in its decision.

I don't have an issue with the players. They have every right to play out their contract. My issue is with the list management, and how we got to this stage. 

If we look at our best 22 next year, we'll have 4 key forwards at Casey (BBB, T Mac, Schache and Jefferson) plus a hybrid forward in Melksham on the sidelines. And we don't have a mature aged ruckman to back up Max if he gets injured. Is that a healthy position to be in?

Some of us don't have blind faith, and are willing to challenge club decisions. Others will never say a bad word about the club. The whole point of a forum is to discuss the issues of the club on and off the field.

And BTW, the club didn't see any "cultural aspects" in off-loading Grundy, who still had 4 years to go on his contract. 

 

Edited November 1, 20231 yr by mo64

15 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

I think what many are missing is the cultural aspect of keeping him on, and Tmac as well.  It's very hard to ask Petts to stay and honour his contract if you force BBB or Tmac to take early retirement particularly when it will most likely cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars.  I like the fact we are honouring our word, it sends a strong message that can have substantial benefits in unseen areas.

These issues are never clear or easy but a balancing act to find the best overall solution.  We don't know all the facts and I suggest you support the Club in its decision.

You know, it's okay for people in life to not agree or support everything this club does. It's what makes the general AFL supporter base unique when there are different opinions and ideas that are different to the clubs decision making. The footy club don't get it right either.

You are in no position to tell others how we should or shouldn't support decisions made by the footy club. That can be left up to the individual thanks.

11 minutes ago, mo64 said:

I don't have an issue with the players. They have every right to play out their contract. My issue is with the list management, and how we got to this stage. 

If we look at our best 22 next year, we'll have 4 key forwards at Casey (BBB, T Mac, Schache and Jefferson) plus a hybrid forward in Melksham on the sidelines. And we don't have a mature aged ruckman to back up Max if he gets injured. Is that a healthy position to be in?

Some of us don't have blind faith, and are willing to challenge club decisions. Others will never say a bad word about the club. The whole point of a forum is to discuss the issues of the club on and off the field.

And BTW, the club didn't see any "cultural aspects" in off-loading Grundy, who still had 4 years to go on his contract. 

 

Bizarre that Schace was re signed, especially with Fullarton coming in. Brown McDonald Schace all playing for Casey will hinder Jefferson’s develop as well 

34 minutes ago, mo64 said:

I don't have an issue with the players. They have every right to play out their contract. My issue is with the list management, and how we got to this stage. 

If we look at our best 22 next year, we'll have 4 key forwards at Casey (BBB, T Mac, Schache and Jefferson) plus a hybrid forward in Melksham on the sidelines. And we don't have a mature aged ruckman to back up Max if he gets injured. Is that a healthy position to be in?

Some of us don't have blind faith, and are willing to challenge club decisions. Others will never say a bad word about the club. The whole point of a forum is to discuss the issues of the club on and off the field.

And BTW, the club didn't see any "cultural aspects" in off-loading Grundy, who still had 4 years to go on his contract. 

 

I never said it was ideal, I don't like it.  Perhaps Brown doesn't move to us if we don't offer the length of contract we did, perhaps if Tmac doesn't extend we can't afford to sign Trac or Clarrie to long term contracts.  Perhaps this is the unfortunate results of other decisions that have benefited greatly, like flags, like having our elite players on long term contracts.

All I'm saying is there is more to it than just "he won't play a part next year let's try and get rid of him somehow" and we don't know what the "more" is. And I agree that the Schache decision is odd, I wouldn't have done it.  

As for Grundy I think most recognize that it was something that we tried and it didn't work. Grundy wanted out, we didn't push him and for getting him where he wanted to go for what I and others think was well "unders" is a good thing for culture and that would be recognized by the players.

2 hours ago, Wizard of Koz said:

I have 2 eyes! You have one obviously.

Money, money and money. That's why he is telling himself he is not cooked. 

That’s actually not true.

He would get his contract amount whether he played or not and was delisted or retired.

Usually retiring players compromise their salary, given they are not providing any service, or doing all the training, thereby allowing them extra money from different sources, like playing at a lower level, coaching, or a new income stream of some sort.

I’m not a fan of keeping the old boys either but….

We have a pick available if we want to take Kynan Brown in the national draft and we have 2 rookie spots available.

We also can wind the old boys up at the end of summer if they aren’t healthy. 

Hopefully we get clarity on the clubs plans with Kynan. I’ve always thought he’s a rookie talent so if that’s the way it goes it will be a nice result.

1 hour ago, mo64 said:

I don't have an issue with the players. They have every right to play out their contract. My issue is with the list management, and how we got to this stage. 

If we look at our best 22 next year, we'll have 4 key forwards at Casey (BBB, T Mac, Schache and Jefferson) plus a hybrid forward in Melksham on the sidelines. And we don't have a mature aged ruckman to back up Max if he gets injured. Is that a healthy position to be in?

Some of us don't have blind faith, and are willing to challenge club decisions. Others will never say a bad word about the club. The whole point of a forum is to discuss the issues of the club on and off the field.

And BTW, the club didn't see any "cultural aspects" in off-loading Grundy, who still had 4 years to go on his contract. 

 

Grundy wanted to leave us and we accommodated that.

We can still rookie a ruck backup like Lycett, or whoever, for next year.

I agree with Slartibartfast that list decisions need to be looked at in totality, not in isolation. There are many more factors that go into list decisions, beyond thinking a player may not be at his best in the final year of a contract. FWIW,  BBB’s knee is apparently better, so he might be able to provide another key forward option next season.

Personally, I see Tom Mac and Schache having little input at senior level next season, which I see as their last with us.

Edited November 1, 20231 yr by Redleg

FWIW, Max does have ruck back up. Fullerton and Schache. Some may not like these options but this is how the club has managed this part of the list. 
 

The one year extension to Schache’s contract is for a ruck/fwd back up. 

19 minutes ago, Demonsterative said:

FWIW, Max does have ruck back up. Fullerton and Schache. Some may not like these options but this is how the club has managed this part of the list. 
 

The one year extension to Schache’s contract is for a ruck/fwd back up. 

You mean the ruck forward that we didn’t play for a single minute, when sub in the Semi, even though Tom Mac was possessionless in the second half and couldn’t even get to a forward half ruck contest?

FD obviously think he is a good option!

18 hours ago, deanox said:

Maybe we have too many small players?

Maybe we don't need another late draft flanker/mid?

That could well be the reason imo

The continuation of Brown TMac Schache and Melksham on the list perplexes me but I assume it is all about salary cap and list management for the end of 2024 draft and trade period. I'll be surprised if any of them play a meaningful number of games at senior level in 2024. It could be as simple as using TMac Melksham and Brown in coaching/club support roles and paying them from the salary cap as opposed to reducing the soft cap by paying others as coaches in their stead

15 minutes ago, Redleg said:

You mean the ruck forward that we didn’t play for a single minute, when sub in the Semi, even though Tom Mac was possessionless in the second half and couldn’t even get to a forward half ruck contest?

FD obviously think he is a good option!

That’s him Red, the man with splinters in his [censored]. 
 

Looking at it with a glass half full, he is in the best 23 on the list 🤔😧🤔😧