This could potentially be merged with the strategy and all the jazz thread.

Jack Viney previous captain and current vice captain often gets caught holding the ball. So did Jones captain.

I think it is our strategy to cop holding the ball decisions against us because it is often a 50 / 50 decision and if we lose the ball without a free kick slowing the play it can sling shot the opposition's way.

Frustrating to watch but I am happy winning.

Yes

It often more like a 20/80 decision the way holding the ball decisions don't get paid by some umpires.

Was often a directive of coaches when I played that you are better to hold onto the ball that bit longer, be prepared to get tackled and dispose of it properly to a good option than to panic and just put the next bloke under pressure or turn it over.  I've never really had an issue with it when Jones or Viney get paid holding the ball on that basis alone.   Even in recient times when he wasn't racking up huge possession numbers, it was my observation that Jonesy often used the ball so creatively and setup guys in good space within our forward line that we got very good value out of those possessions, precisely because he didn't just pass the ball on like a hot spud.

The prob with Viney is not that he tries and take on a tackler, it’s the simple fact that he has had options out in space nearly each time. 
once out of the centre he has a clean break and could have gone long to our forwards. (Was on his left side too) 

Another also out of the centre square he burnt Trac or Oliver, to his left.

Thats the problem. He is not playing team first football. He is playing selfish crap football.

8 minutes ago, Gorgoroth said:

The prob with Viney is not that he tries and take on a tackler, it’s the simple fact that he has had options out in space nearly each time. 
once out of the centre he has a clean break and could have gone long to our forwards. (Was on his left side too) 

Another also out of the centre square he burnt Trac or Oliver, to his left.

Thats the problem. He is not playing team first football. He is playing selfish crap football.

Yes and it is so ingrained that it is almost impossible to change

1 hour ago, Gorgoroth said:

The prob with Viney is not that he tries and take on a tackler, it’s the simple fact that he has had options out in space nearly each time. 
once out of the centre he has a clean break and could have gone long to our forwards. (Was on his left side too) 

Another also out of the centre square he burnt Trac or Oliver, to his left.

Thats the problem. He is not playing team first football. He is playing selfish crap football.

“Go long to our forwards”? Does that mean, bomb it in to a pack?

20 minutes ago, Ollie fan said:

“Go long to our forwards”? Does that mean, bomb it in to a pack?

Of course it does - in which case from belligerent supporters you're tarred with an inability to 'lower the eyes' or 'spot up someone' . Some supporters want it both ways.

Whilst I was annoyed at times with the holding the ball and fend off from Viney/Harmes (Vimes? Harney?) duo, they clearly get away with it more than 50% of the time, which is why they keep doing it.

All players make errors, players that make similar errors (that come over some of the time) look as though they haven't 'learned'. It's more about a risk that hasn't paid off - its not arrogance, thats a misinterpretation. 

Language around 'burning' or 'torching' players doesn't help either. For each player, it's a decision that is either taken or not taken moment to moment for each player, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't  

Anyway I'm going to list some errors that players make each game that for me are on a scale of ropeable to mildly amusing

• bombing into 50... it's only bombing when it doesn't come off.. do you back your tall forward to win the contest?
• multiple defenders spoiling the ball with no one on the ground and the ball happens to spill over the back.
• fending off... it's only arrogance when it doesn't come off.. do you back your strength?
• kicking on the 45...its a decision making error, unless of course it pays off and then it's amazing
• getting spoilt when attempting a chest mark..just stretch out your arms
• Ryan Ferguson tunnel ball

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

Anyway I'm going to list some errors that players make each game that for me are on a scale of ropeable to mildly amusing

• Ryan Ferguson tunnel ball

That would be Jack Fitzpatrick

Interesting OP theory.

That Jones and Viney both have a tendency to get caught HTB is a reflection of where they've come from as players.  

For a long time Jones was the lone 'star' in our midfield and he developed the tendency to try and do too much.  While it comes from a good place it's ultimately selfish football.  Notice as we got better as a side, Jones worked that habit out of his game.

Viney is the same, and when is he in average form it creeps back into his game.  

4 hours ago, Ollie fan said:

“Go long to our forwards”? Does that mean, bomb it in to a pack?

From a fast break from centre bounce means you have ample space to kick the ball to and have the forwards lead to that space.

 

7 hours ago, Gorgoroth said:

The prob with Viney is not that he tries and take on a tackler, it’s the simple fact that he has had options out in space nearly each time. 
once out of the centre he has a clean break and could have gone long to our forwards. (Was on his left side too) 

Another also out of the centre square he burnt Trac or Oliver, to his left.

Thats the problem. He is not playing team first football. He is playing selfish crap football.

He is very much not the Viney of old. He is lacking both form and of course confidence so he is trying too hard I think.

Needs to quuckly hit a target and not be easy prey to a strong tackle. He cant even break many like he used to.

I think what we saw from Jack that got him in trouble was pure frustration.

And I get it. How hard to be your best when your body lets you down for half a season?

Sad to say but I think JJ is a better option at this point in time.

 

The holding the ball/incorrect disposal rule is so confusing and inconsistently applied I have no idea how a coach could explain to any player what they should do once in possession of the ball. 

3 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

He is very much not the Viney of old. He is lacking both form and of course confidence so he is trying too hard I think.

Needs to quuckly hit a target and not be easy prey to a strong tackle. He cant even break many like he used to.

I think what we saw from Jack that got him in trouble was pure frustration.

And I get it. How hard to be your best when your body lets you down for half a season?

Sad to say but I think JJ is a better option at this point in time.

 

I think Viney should play defensive half forward with time through the middle. I think he offers a lot defensively which allows Trac and Clarrie to stay more offensive. The prob is that he hurts the team when does what he did last week. But Clarrie and Trac have also done this same thing at times this year. The best way Viney gets into form is by doing the hard 1% stuff. He needs to lead on that side and the rest comes his way off that work.

What are the actual stats on Viney and Harmes getting caught holding the ball? Just interested that's all

2 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

What are the actual stats on Viney and Harmes getting caught holding the ball? Just interested that's all

Viney got caught HTB 5 times on the weekend. 5 times.

Harmes got done twice.

If HTB was the only issue with Jack Viney I’d accept it. He can’t kick it more than 30 metres currently, he’s never been quick but he’s lost all power to go from a standing start, and he doesn’t have enough versatility to play anywhere but as an inside mid.

To be fair to the guy you would never question his intensity and effort. I just think years of trouble with his feet has finally caught up with him. I hope he can get a clear run at it, because on current form his best attributes can be covered by other players with more dynamic skills.