Interesting article in The Guardian

[CHF 2,738]

I came across this article yesterday and thought that, while it was not to do with AFL, it could be very pertinent to the situation we find ourselves in with the injuries to Brown and Wiedeman.

 https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/feb/12/post-striker-manchester-city-may-be-guardiola-latest-masterpiece

It discusses Gaurdiloa's reaction to losing his two best/main strikers for long periods of this season and how they have made the adjustment. Manchester City are at the top of the league, 5 points and a game clear.

A quote from the first paragraph....

“If we dream that the striker is going to solve our problems,” Guardiola replied, “we are not going to win the games. What will help us to still be there is the way we play.”

There is also reference in the article to multi-faceted players with a lot of flexibility in where and how they play. 

Here is a quote from Foden....

“When we don’t play with a typical centre-forward, the people have to move a little bit more,” Guardiola has said. “But we have to arrive in the box.”

He is quoting what has been told to them by the manager...... onus is on the players to move and make the play/space.

Last week they thrashed Liverpool 4-1 and it is referenced in this quote.

"But Jesus's contribution without the ball remains peerless, and it is telling that last Sunday Guardiola responded to Liverpool’s withdrawal of Thiago Alcântara and Curtis Jones by introducing Jesus just four minutes later, sensing that Liverpool were now more vulnerable to losing the ball in dangerous areas.

A great bit of coaching where he is supporting the tactical structure with positive moves.

I found the last two paragraphs particularly interesting. The reference to goals being scored by systems more than by players and titles the same way.

And lastly, this.....

"Perhaps this is the trend that will distinguish the title-winners of the near future: teams with multiple threats, multiple focal points, midfielders upon midfielders upon midfielders, attacks replicating and mutating at mesmerising speed."

Is that what we were doing with CHAOS BALL in 2018?

[DeeSpencer 25,715]

I'm not sure we have the option of introducing Jesus to the line up.

Richmond won the flag in 2017 when they realised instead of playing 2 talls they could get away with 1 and add more speed and change the way the game was played. But they've also played 2 and even 3 ever since, and backlines aren't pushing nearly as high and opening up as much space now as they were then. 

That said; skills, speed (of ball movement and leg speed) and cohesion are probably more important in kicking goals than big key forwards. 

I think tall forwards are needed, it makes it a tough slog for the little guys if you go without them completely. The opposition start taking intercept marks, the mids start to worry about going long and direct and start overusing the ball. But you don't need to be a good mark or kick to be in the right place structurally and to force a contest. It can be Majak Daw and Tom McDonald in the long down the line spots and bringing it to ground with crumbers at their feet and Petracca and Fritsch can be leading out to space if the kicker can find them.

[buck_nekkid 5,866]

I think it is also about matchups.  How do you take opposition structures and processes and find ways to leverage advantage?  Teams worked the demons out (corral the aggressive cattle dogs) by outnumbering outside the contest.  Geelong played keepings off from half back and opened us up like an aging porn star. 

Each team will have its core way to play, and as we have seen, Richmond’s fierce pressure game was enough to beat most sides on most days.  Once we develop a more robust and flexible game concept with the team we have compiled, it then needs to be shaped to take advantage of the opposition.  Unfortunately, we have struggled to get ‘plan A’ going week to week (quarter to quarter) so it is hard to lift to the mighty heights of EPL until we get that figured out first.

[whatwhat say what 22,772]

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I'm not sure we have the option of introducing Jesus to the line up.

we'll have to move majak to chf...

[Little Goffy 14,573]

Reminds me slightly wistfully of what it looked like might happen with our mix of flexbile forwards who could shift around, as well as mids who could play forward or attack effectively from the midfield role. We had half a dozen mids average half a goal a game in 2018, and then all the loose forwards like Nibbler, Hannan and Melksham.  Our 2018 was exactly the 'mesmerising, constantly mutating attacks' this article was talking about.

Worth noting that the group of mids there were kicking goals at a rate comparable to Richmond's 2019 fleet of small forwards, as well as being near-full-time mids.

Also worth noting that our recent drafts have added an awful lot of very dynamic mutli-role players who can cause that kind of trouble up forward and maybe restore that impossible-to-cover whack-a-mole party of 2018.

It's been noted that the new guys are all on the short side, but it is worth remembering that we actually have a fairly tall midfield group as it is so the balance isn't too strange.

 

[deelusions from afar 1,810]

12 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I'm not sure we have the option of introducing Jesus to the line up.

Richmond won the flag in 2017 when they realised instead of playing 2 talls they could get away with 1 and add more speed and change the way the game was played. But they've also played 2 and even 3 ever since, and backlines aren't pushing nearly as high and opening up as much space now as they were then. 

That said; skills, speed (of ball movement and leg speed) and cohesion are probably more important in kicking goals than big key forwards. 

I think tall forwards are needed, it makes it a tough slog for the little guys if you go without them completely. The opposition start taking intercept marks, the mids start to worry about going long and direct and start overusing the ball. But you don't need to be a good mark or kick to be in the right place structurally and to force a contest. It can be Majak Daw and Tom McDonald in the long down the line spots and bringing it to ground with crumbers at their feet and Petracca and Fritsch can be leading out to space if the kicker can find them.

Haven't watched enough of Majak forward to know how he goes at this but I don't think being the stay at home key forward is really TMac's strength.  Brown is great on the lead with his height and reach but isn't really the long range get out kick.  Weid has shown flashes of potentialbut not consistently.

 

What am I saying?  It will never happen but as Max is our best contested mark, if he was playing deep forward then that would give opposition defences much more to worry about - you wouldn't actually need many more talls around him (esp if Fritsch, Petracca and Jacko are around).  If I was a defender and Melbourne were bombing it in long, he would be the one I'd be most worried about.

[DeeSpencer 25,715]

1 hour ago, deelusions from afar said:

Haven't watched enough of Majak forward to know how he goes at this but I don't think being the stay at home key forward is really TMac's strength.  Brown is great on the lead with his height and reach but isn't really the long range get out kick.  Weid has shown flashes of potentialbut not consistently.

 

What am I saying?  It will never happen but as Max is our best contested mark, if he was playing deep forward then that would give opposition defences much more to worry about - you wouldn't actually need many more talls around him (esp if Fritsch, Petracca and Jacko are around).  If I was a defender and Melbourne were bombing it in long, he would be the one I'd be most worried about.

Tom’s definitely at his best using his tank, to bounce back from the last two years he’ll have to play to his strengths but also do his job forcing contests which he hasn’t the last two years.

The Saints used 2 rucks and Max King to make sure they had a predictable top of the square option at all times. The Saints rucks are more skilled and better movers than Max, but it’s worth considering the change up of using Jackson (or maybe Daw) in the ruck and putting Max forward. He will make defenders panic and draw free kicks. 

The specifics depend on match ups and structures really, my main argument is that the long bomb and hence the need for a tall striker has been pretty much dead in soccer for a long time. Tall targets are still vital in footy, but they don’t have to be superstars.

[Rab D Nesbitt 8,367]

I think it also helps that Man City aren't restricted with a salary cap in the same way that AFL clubs are so can purchase quality all over the park. The principle still applies though. Rangers have done the same this season. Having relied on Alfredo Morelos for our goals in recent years we've seen a lot more coming from our midfield and even our right back James Tavernier has scored 17 goals. We also defend as a team having leaked just 8 goals in 29 league games to date. 

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

I'll continue to take the 'glass half empty' view of this club until we inject some attribute diversity through the middle of the ground.

The problem isn't that we lack key forward depth. It's that for another year, our club refused to bring in mature players with a contrasting skill set to most of our midfield group.

I specified "mature" players because I know Bowie and Laurie are the type of players we're missing. But they're first year players.

When I look across the competition at the teams you'd assume we'd be ahead of in development to this stage, it's a worrying look. Carlton, Freo, Gold Coast, St Kilda and the Doggies are all sides who I can see leapfrogging us this year due to their superior list balance.

We go into 2021 with a very similar lineup bar Ben Brown. We recorded one of the worst inside 50 to score conversions last year and that problem has lingered for seasons now. We are a team who are known for turnovers if pressured. We are known for our lack of class, polish and use entering inside 50. What have we done from a list perspective to address this over the last 3 to 4 years?

Very little.

The fact that Ben Brown and Weideman are injured will only further highlight these issues imo. 

My views on Goodwin are that he is an extremely stubborn and rigid coach who has believed in one system of play for too long. I can see he's made adjustments due to performance and criticism, but not nearly enough has been done as far as list balance goes.

And because of that, I can't see this year being any different to the last few. We will win games due to our sheer volume of contested ball. But will will lose to many games due to the same problems we've seen.

Happy to revisit this post at the end of the year.

Go Dees nevertheless.

 

 

[dazzledavey36 54,947]

4 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

I'll continue to take the 'glass half empty' view of this club until we inject some attribute diversity through the middle of the ground.

The problem isn't that we lack key forward depth. It's that for another year, our club refused to bring in mature players with a contrasting skill set to most of our midfield group.

I specified "mature" players because I know Bowie and Laurie are the type of players we're missing. But they're first year players.

When I look across the competition at the teams you'd assume we'd be ahead of in development to this stage, it's a worrying look. Carlton, Freo, Gold Coast, St Kilda and the Doggies are all sides who I can see leapfrogging us this year due to their superior list balance.

We go into 2021 with a very similar lineup bar Ben Brown. We recorded one of the worst inside 50 to score conversions last year and that problem has lingered for seasons now. We are a team who are known for turnovers if pressured. We are known for our lack of class, polish and use entering inside 50. What have we done from a list perspective to address this over the last 3 to 4 years?

Very little.

The fact that Ben Brown and Weideman are injured will only further highlight these issues imo. 

My views on Goodwin are that he is an extremely stubborn and rigid coach who has believed in one system of play for too long. I can see he's made adjustments due to performance and criticism, but not nearly enough has been done as far as list balance goes.

And because of that, I can't see this year being any different to the last few. We will win games due to our sheer volume of contested ball. But will will lose to many games due to the same problems we've seen.

Happy to revisit this post at the end of the year.

Go Dees nevertheless.

 

 

You will cop some heat for this post above, but I agree wholeheartedly with everything you've said.

Watch the likes of Carlton, Doggies and Saints speed right past us this year if not already.

 

[layzie 33,814]

5 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

We go into 2021 with a very similar lineup bar Ben Brown. We recorded one of the worst inside 50 to score conversions last year and that problem has lingered for seasons now. We are a team who are known for turnovers if pressured. We are known for our lack of class, polish and use entering inside 50. What have we done from a list perspective to address this over the last 3 to 4 years?

Very little.

 

 

 

 

Hard not to agree. There's people that still think this list has the highest ceiling out there, the question is where is the improvement coming from? 

[whatwhat say what 22,772]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

You will cop some heat for this post above, but I agree wholeheartedly with everything you've said.

Watch the likes of Carlton, Doggies and Saints speed right past us this year if not already.

 

Well seeing as all bar the blues of that lot were ahead of us last year...

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,851]

10 hours ago, buck_nekkid said:

I think it is also about matchups.  How do you take opposition structures and processes and find ways to leverage advantage?  Teams worked the demons out (corral the aggressive cattle dogs) by outnumbering outside the contest.  Geelong played keepings off from half back and opened us up like an aging porn star. 

Each team will have its core way to play, and as we have seen, Richmond’s fierce pressure game was enough to beat most sides on most days.  Once we develop a more robust and flexible game concept with the team we have compiled, it then needs to be shaped to take advantage of the opposition.  Unfortunately, we have struggled to get ‘plan A’ going week to week (quarter to quarter) so it is hard to lift to the mighty heights of EPL until we get that figured out first.

Outrageous, but somehow artsy, bordering of tolerable. 

[pinkshark 950]

21 hours ago, CHF said:

I came across this article yesterday and thought that, while it was not to do with AFL, it could be very pertinent to the situation we find ourselves in with the injuries to Brown and Wiedeman.

 https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/feb/12/post-striker-manchester-city-may-be-guardiola-latest-masterpiece

It discusses Gaurdiloa's reaction to losing his two best/main strikers for long periods of this season and how they have made the adjustment. Manchester City are at the top of the league, 5 points and a game clear.

A quote from the first paragraph....

“If we dream that the striker is going to solve our problems,” Guardiola replied, “we are not going to win the games. What will help us to still be there is the way we play.”

There is also reference in the article to multi-faceted players with a lot of flexibility in where and how they play. 

Here is a quote from Foden....

“When we don’t play with a typical centre-forward, the people have to move a little bit more,” Guardiola has said. “But we have to arrive in the box.”

He is quoting what has been told to them by the manager...... onus is on the players to move and make the play/space.

Last week they thrashed Liverpool 4-1 and it is referenced in this quote.

"But Jesus's contribution without the ball remains peerless, and it is telling that last Sunday Guardiola responded to Liverpool’s withdrawal of Thiago Alcântara and Curtis Jones by introducing Jesus just four minutes later, sensing that Liverpool were now more vulnerable to losing the ball in dangerous areas.

A great bit of coaching where he is supporting the tactical structure with positive moves.

I found the last two paragraphs particularly interesting. The reference to goals being scored by systems more than by players and titles the same way.

And lastly, this.....

"Perhaps this is the trend that will distinguish the title-winners of the near future: teams with multiple threats, multiple focal points, midfielders upon midfielders upon midfielders, attacks replicating and mutating at mesmerising speed."

Is that what we were doing with CHAOS BALL in 2018?

Love your efforts CHF but Goodwin is no Pep. More like Steve McLaren. For those not familiar wth McLaren.  He's a dud.

[CHF 2,738]

3 minutes ago, pinkshark said:

Love your efforts CHF but Goodwin is no Pep. More like Steve McLaren. For those not familiar wth McLaren.  He's a dud.

I agree that Simon is no Pep but then again, there are not many sports coaches that would match him. I was interested in the article more for the approach to the problem that it outlined.

The coaching staff managed to get the players to adjust their structures to fit the changed conditions and to understand what was needed to be done to compensate for the different conditions up forward.

More flexibility and more running seems to be their answer with awareness that there will be numbers in the box presenting multiple options. I know that is a very simplistic outline but I think it is worthwhile noting.

One of the things I enjoyed about the way we played in 2018 was that there was plenty of movement in the forwards when the ball broke for us downfield. Instead of a single option in motion in the forward 50 we seemed to have a number of options moving and presenting with players at their feet.

I am hopeful that with the added depth to the coaching setup we will see some proactive team structures that will ask questions of the opposition in the coming season.

[BDA 22,755]

Pep invented the “false nine” or strikerless formation at Barcelona when he moved Messi from the right to the centre. Spain have used it to good effect as well as they typically have a dearth of quality strikers but plenty of excellent midfielders.

For the system to work it requires players who can learn and switch between systems easily. This requires a level of intelligence which not all players possess. Pep is very particular about the type of player he buys. They must have this dexterity, able to change roles seamlessly. It requires intense coaching as well. The key is constant movement, one touch pass and go football. The opposition is bamboozled not knowing whether to stay or go with opponents.

To apply in an AFL context, you would need a team of forward and midfield hybrid players who constantly rotate. You’d need a radical list overall, no more KPF’s.

Can’t ever see it happening. Definitely not at Melbourne. It would require a level of team cohesion, disciple and kicking skills far beyond the capabilities of our group. And coach. Perhaps if Richmond lose Reiwoldt and Lynch Hardwick might try something similar.

[pinkshark 950]

1 hour ago, CHF said:

I agree that Simon is no Pep but then again, there are not many sports coaches that would match him. I was interested in the article more for the approach to the problem that it outlined.

The coaching staff managed to get the players to adjust their structures to fit the changed conditions and to understand what was needed to be done to compensate for the different conditions up forward.

More flexibility and more running seems to be their answer with awareness that there will be numbers in the box presenting multiple options. I know that is a very simplistic outline but I think it is worthwhile noting.

One of the things I enjoyed about the way we played in 2018 was that there was plenty of movement in the forwards when the ball broke for us downfield. Instead of a single option in motion in the forward 50 we seemed to have a number of options moving and presenting with players at their feet.

I am hopeful that with the added depth to the coaching setup we will see some proactive team structures that will ask questions of the opposition in the coming season.

Well if Yze and Williams can do this happy days.  Because Goodwin hasn't shown a clue and nor Richardson, here or St. Kilda.  2018 we had Hogan, sure he wasn't fit or even on the park towards the end from memory but good things happened that year with him in the forward line.  

[CHF 2,738]

26 minutes ago, Better days ahead said:

Pep invented the “false nine” or strikerless formation at Barcelona when he moved Messi from the right to the centre. Spain have used it to good effect as well as they typically have a dearth of quality strikers but plenty of excellent midfielders.

For the system to work it requires players who can learn and switch between systems easily. This requires a level of intelligence which not all players possess. Pep is very particular about the type of player he buys. They must have this dexterity, able to change roles seamlessly. It requires intense coaching as well. The key is constant movement, one touch pass and go football. The opposition is bamboozled not knowing whether to stay or go with opponents.

To apply in an AFL context, you would need a team of forward and midfield hybrid players who constantly rotate. You’d need a radical list overall, no more KPF’s.

Can’t ever see it happening. Definitely not at Melbourne. It would require a level of team cohesion, disciple and kicking skills far beyond the capabilities of our group. And coach. Perhaps if Richmond lose Reiwoldt and Lynch Hardwick might try something similar.

I am not advocating that we adopt this system 100% and go back to square one and start re-building the list. I found this article interesting in the context of the injuries that MC have had this season and the way that they have adjusted to life without their two main strikers. As you say, the key is constant movement and one touch pass and go football. Watching Petracca he is the profile of this type of footballer.

 

[BDA 22,755]

4 minutes ago, CHF said:

I am not advocating that we adopt this system 100% and go back to square one and start re-building the list. I found this article interesting in the context of the injuries that MC have had this season and the way that they have adjusted to life without their two main strikers. As you say, the key is constant movement and one touch pass and go football. Watching Petracca he is the profile of this type of footballer.

 

I understand you were pointing out the coaching adaptability and innovative thinking. 

Petracca would be a Pep type of player alright. Can’t think of too many more on our list though.

[Gunna’s 2,104]

As a Spurs fan in the EPL I also frequent the thefightingcock forum to have a read of the comments from the fans to understand what others see and hopefully get a greater understanding of how the team is playing and what needs to change. 
The main difference is the censoring of swear words, or lack thereof. But apart from that the sentiments are mostly the same:

The coach can’t coach, Sack the coach etc. etc.

The tactics both Mourinho and Goodwin have employed have now been worked out and are being countered by opposition sides. They both worked like a dream beforehand (Dees in 2018 and Spurs were top of the league pre Xmas). But now both look like one trick ponies with no plan b. 
 

It’s interesting reading the post game threads that are now toying with whether it’s tactics or players ability to perform their role. Comment suggests tactics doesn’t make a player pass like [censored] but other comments suggest no confidence in the game plan is effecting the players ability to perform at elite levels. 

Pep has the benefit of the best players with uber elite ability. I’ve heard his players speak of Pep as though he is always thinking ahead and is at the forefront of the tactics and gameplay in the world game. I believe both player and coach have trust in one another. 
 
Im not so sure that Goodwin truly trusts the players nor has the ability to change the game plan to suit the team he has. 

Go Dees / Go Coys

[BDA 22,755]

5 minutes ago, Gunna’s said:

As a Spurs fan in the EPL I also frequent the thefightingcock forum to have a read of the comments from the fans to understand what others see and hopefully get a greater understanding of how the team is playing and what needs to change. 
The main difference is the censoring of swear words, or lack thereof. But apart from that the sentiments are mostly the same:

The coach can’t coach, Sack the coach etc. etc.

The tactics both Mourinho and Goodwin have employed have now been worked out and are being countered by opposition sides. They both worked like a dream beforehand (Dees in 2018 and Spurs were top of the league pre Xmas). But now both look like one trick ponies with no plan b. 
 

It’s interesting reading the post game threads that are now toying with whether it’s tactics or players ability to perform their role. Comment suggests tactics doesn’t make a player pass like [censored] but other comments suggest no confidence in the game plan is effecting the players ability to perform at elite levels. 

Pep has the benefit of the best players with uber elite ability. I’ve heard his players speak of Pep as though he is always thinking ahead and is at the forefront of the tactics and gameplay in the world game. I believe both player and coach have trust in one another. 
 
Im not so sure that Goodwin truly trusts the players nor has the ability to change the game plan to suit the team he has. 

Go Dees / Go Coys

I read a good description of Spurs and Mourinho recently as "Jurassic Park the Bus" ?

[Scoop Junior 3,472]

20 minutes ago, Gunna’s said:

As a Spurs fan in the EPL I also frequent the thefightingcock forum to have a read of the comments from the fans to understand what others see and hopefully get a greater understanding of how the team is playing and what needs to change. 
The main difference is the censoring of swear words, or lack thereof. But apart from that the sentiments are mostly the same:

The coach can’t coach, Sack the coach etc. etc.

The tactics both Mourinho and Goodwin have employed have now been worked out and are being countered by opposition sides. They both worked like a dream beforehand (Dees in 2018 and Spurs were top of the league pre Xmas). But now both look like one trick ponies with no plan b. 
 

It’s interesting reading the post game threads that are now toying with whether it’s tactics or players ability to perform their role. Comment suggests tactics doesn’t make a player pass like [censored] but other comments suggest no confidence in the game plan is effecting the players ability to perform at elite levels. 

Pep has the benefit of the best players with uber elite ability. I’ve heard his players speak of Pep as though he is always thinking ahead and is at the forefront of the tactics and gameplay in the world game. I believe both player and coach have trust in one another. 
 
Im not so sure that Goodwin truly trusts the players nor has the ability to change the game plan to suit the team he has. 

Go Dees / Go Coys

I wouldn't have thought there'd be too many Spurs fans with the nickname "Gunna's".