I can understand the love for Viney but he is a one trick pony if the game is fought in close he goes alright but once the game is played on the outside where he cannot make tackles he is slow as not a great mark, kicking to position not good let him go as a free agent but get him to where he wants to go.

Agree that we have heavy inside problem. 

Throw Harmes into that problem mix and it becomes more of a problem. 

Agree that Oliver/Petracca/Brayshaw is our best first-line mix. 

Don't agree that Viney at HFF is the solution. 

Think Viney is invaluable. Have no idea what to do. 

Viney has been tried in the forward line for limited returns. 

Don't recall when exactly. Was for shock value at the start of the match. 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

We will never trade Viney and he will never walk in FA. I can't believe some think it is a genuine possibility, he is red and blue through and through.

Yep - agree there's no way he'd be traded. It would tear at the fabric of the club which further underpins the difficulty the coaches face in getting Brayshaw into the midfield.

 

7 minutes ago, Skuit said:

Agree that we have heavy inside problem. 

Throw Harmes into that problem mix and it becomes more of a problem. 

Agree that Oliver/Petracca/Brayshaw is our best first-line mix. 

Don't agree that Viney at HFF is the solution. 

Think Viney is invaluable. Have no idea what to do. 

Viney has been tried in the forward line for limited returns. 

Don't recall when exactly. Was for shock value at the start of the match. 

 

 

 

This.

It's a genuine conundrum and in bashing Goodwin, as some have done, there's a failure to acknowledge this.

27 minutes ago, Cheesy D. Pun said:

This.

It's a genuine conundrum and in bashing Goodwin, as some have done, there's a failure to acknowledge this.

I think about it a lot but can't come up with a solution. Our FD are trying. Harmes back to HB for example. The one thing people don't get: our very narrow window opened and closed in 2018/19. Next one just starts opening again next year. We are still in trial/training mode. If any one of our one-dimensional mids could just offer the slightest glimpse (bar Trac) in another position we would be set. 

I would have all of Trac (of course), Oliver, Harmes and maybe even Brayshaw ahead of Viney on forward craft. I still want Viney in our first team though. I have no idea what the solution is. Wing? Nah. Half-back? No. But he is probably better than Jones (and Melksham) at whatever they currently do now. Give him a run there but don't expect any immediate returns. Training wheels still. Unfortunately. 

13 hours ago, Skuit said:

Don't agree that Viney at HFF is the solution. 

Think Viney is invaluable. Have no idea what to do. 

Viney has been tried in the forward line for limited returns. 

Don't recall when exactly. Was for shock value at the start of the match. 

 

Convincing convenient argument right here ...

47 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

Convincing convenient argument right here ...

Ok.

22 hours ago, Pollyanna said:

I'm officially starting the #PlayJackVineyforward campaign. @A F and I have been banging on this drum for 2 years and I think now is the time to pull the trigger.

As everyone here knows, I'm a big Simon Goodwin fan and a big Jack Viney fan. 

Jack has been having a very good year in the midfield but the honest facts are that he's behind Christian Petracca and Clayton Oliver in the pecking order and he's very similar to Oliver in focus on first possession.  As has been widely discussed, the shorter quarters and season is providing less scope for midfield rotations and 3 starting mids instead of 4 is the current core requirement.  I think that Angus Brayshaw provides more of a point of difference in there and that Petracca, Oliver and Brayshaw is the go-to combination - another factor in this is that Angus has shown his breakaway from the stoppages delivers tremendous metres gained and he struggles to be effective elsewhere.

The facts are we're a developing team that's currently middle of the road and we need to make a quantum step to mix it with the best teams - the key problem has been our connection with the forward line but that has been improving with Weed's establishment.  Viney has all the attributes to make a real difference to converting our chances, locking it in and causing defender chaos balls if it does come back out.  He is incredible in the contest and has the rare ability to beat a couple of opponents that is required when outnumbered down there.  I laugh when I hear opposition supporters say he is slow - he is lightning over the first 3 metres, his tackling is legendary and opposition defenders will be crying themselves to sleep the night before playing us because if Jack doesn't get you, Kossie will and if you happen to escape the back 50 you'll run into Vanders.

Jack might see his move from the midfield as a demotion and might play angry - look out!  But the small forward role is glamour - I know he's a different type of player but think Robbie Gray. Toby Green and Cyril.  He can be a legend down there.

Come on Simon, you know it makes sense.

I have been meaning to start a similar thread (The Toby Green Model) for a few weeks now. I agree with you almost completely.

I feel we should have a look at doing "A Toby Green" with Jack. Years ago, before the GWS midfield became super stacked, Green was there best young mid by far. Racking it up in a team get smashed week in week out. Over time they acculimalted a gluttony of elite mids and they were forced to adjust. Just like we are now. Over the course of a few seasons Green went from one of GWSs excess mids to a AA level small/mid sized forward. 

Green still attendants center bounces and rotates through the midfield but his core role is a goal kicking, hard edged competitive forward. I cant see a  reason why Jack cannot emulate a similar reinvention of himself as a player. His set shot goal kicking is actually very good, hes ability to bust tackles and snap the ball is also elite. He break tackles from guys much much larger than him, so  the small defenders are going to have a real rough time lining up against him and holding him down. The biggest weakness or attribute he is missing is the ability to compete overhead.

Moving jack forward for the majority of game time allows Gus to play his natural role and Oliver/Trac can all rotate with Jack when ever they need a rest or we need to mix it up in the center. This of course may all fall in a heap if jack is unable to perform up forward  however I don't see a downside of giving it a crack for the rest of this year to see if we can't improve overall as a team.  I'm not saying Jack will become as good a forward as Green but I can see him kicking 30-40 goals a year and also extended his playing career much longer. 

Additionally to Viney going forward I would push Tmac back to CHB were he can find form and releases Lever to roam a bit more. I feel Tmac is a much better defender then Tommo who should be running up and down the wing as we recruited him to . 

 

My best hypothetical 22 would be:

Lever - May - Rivers

Hibberd - Tmac - Salem 

Langdon - Oliver - Tommo

Fritch - Jackson -  Melk

Pickett - Wied - Viney

Gawn - Gus - Petracca 

INT - Harmes - Hannan - Spargo  -  Sparrow

 

I feel this straightens us up and really allows the players to play roles they are suited for. 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Brenno said:

I have been meaning to start a similar thread (The Toby Green Model) for a few weeks now. I agree with you almost completely.

I feel we should have a look at doing "A Toby Green" with Jack. Years ago, before the GWS midfield became super stacked, Green was there best young mid by far. Racking it up in a team get smashed week in week out. Over time they acculimalted a gluttony of elite mids and they were forced to adjust. Just like we are now. Over the course of a few seasons Green went from one of GWSs excess mids to a AA level small/mid sized forward. 

Green still attendants center bounces and rotates through the midfield but his core role is a goal kicking, hard edged competitive forward. I cant see a  reason why Jack cannot emulate a similar reinvention of himself as a player. His set shot goal kicking is actually very good, hes ability to bust tackles and snap the ball is also elite. He break tackles from guys much much larger than him, so  the small defenders are going to have a real rough time lining up against him and holding him down. The biggest weakness or attribute he is missing is the ability to compete overhead.

Moving jack forward for the majority of game time allows Gus to play his natural role and Oliver/Trac can all rotate with Jack when ever they need a rest or we need to mix it up in the center. This of course may all fall in a heap if jack is unable to perform up forward  however I don't see a downside of giving it a crack for the rest of this year to see if we can't improve overall as a team.  I'm not saying Jack will become as good a forward as Green but I can see him kicking 30-40 goals a year and also extended his playing career much longer. 

Additionally to Viney going forward I would push Tmac back to CHB were he can find form and releases Lever to roam a bit more. I feel Tmac is a much better defender then Tommo who should be running up and down the wing as we recruited him to . 

 

My best hypothetical 22 would be:

Lever - May - Rivers

Hibberd - Tmac - Salem 

Langdon - Oliver - Tommo

Fritch - Jackson -  Melk

Pickett - Wied - Viney

Gawn - Gus - Petracca 

INT - Harmes - Hannan - Spargo  -  Sparrow

 

I feel this straightens us up and really allows the players to play roles they are suited for. 

 

 

 

what the hell is Tmac doing there

1 hour ago, Pollyanna said:

Convincing convenient argument right here ...

Anyway. I have no idea why you'd think I'd be looking for a convenient argument. Demonland isn't battle-stations where we pick a side and fight it out. I would really like some solution to what I think is a midfield issue for our team and don't know the answer - and as such I'm interested in hearing all sorts of opinions and ideas. But I'm not convinced Viney can make it as a forward based on the available evidence. You're right though - my argument was far from convincing. I don't always have the energy to dive into the records to back up a statement. In fact - the one game that I can vaguely recall Viney starting forward (somewhere around the middle of 2018 - maybe in Darwin?) he actually did quite well. Just as Oliver has done well once or twice resting forward. But on the entire body of evidence he hasn't got much of it when playing up forward. Maybe an extended stint will change that. I'm not convinced. We will probably never know. 

23 hours ago, Pollyanna said:

"He is incredible in the contest and has the rare ability to beat a couple of opponents that is required when outnumbered down there.  I laugh when I hear opposition supporters say he is slow - he is lightning over the first 3 metres (and) his tackling is legendary"

I'm fully on board the viney as a forward train.

As you suggest his forward pressure would be off the charts. he would scare the  bejusus out of any defender, small or large. like a pocket rocket version of Tony Lockett and the fear he instilled into defenders who thought about of dropping back into his leading space.

Love the idea of him and kozzie working in tandem. Would be the AFL equivalent of the Malachi brothers and their infamous Malachi crunch.

I reckon he has really good forward smarts and an instinct for a goal. Exhibit A was the pearler he kicked on his right forward in the crows game when he sharked a tap.

Like TMac, he can spray his kicks in general play field but is an excellent set shot (at least from no more than about 40 metres).

He is super fit so playing forward he could be on the ground for aprox 90% game time.

i'd love to see him play 70% forward and 30% as a mid, predominately swapping with trac - what a one two punch. The defenders would sigh with relief when the little bull left the area, only for the big bull to saunter in there.

But he also could give Brayshaw and Oliver a chop out when required.

At 30% on ball Viney would still be a weapon as an inside, competed ball winner in the centre and around the ground, in addition to any time the ball was inside our 50.

Make it happen Pollyanna.

Play Petracca, Oliver, Gus and Viney all forward!

Brayshaw does give a more outside mix to the on ballers but it comes at a cost with his lazy defending around a stoppage and lack of speed. His game against North was very good in attack but Aaron Hall was torching him the other way at times.

Viney’s movement around the packs is still vital. And he’s not a primary forward, any talk of comparing him to someone like Toby Greene is bonkers. Best case scenario would be a shorter less skilled Mitch Wallis. That would be a waste of a gun midfielder.

A rotation that sees all our prime mids get their share on ball and forward is the best balance. 

Question: what happened to Jack overhead? I recall him taking some decent contested marks in his earlier years but that seems to have evaporated now. Is my memory wrong? 

1 hour ago, Kent said:

what the hell is Tmac doing there

As in playing down back?

29 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Play Petracca, Oliver, Gus and Viney all forward!

Brayshaw does give a more outside mix to the on ballers but it comes at a cost with his lazy defending around a stoppage and lack of speed. His game against North was very good in attack but Aaron Hall was torching him the other way at times.

Viney’s movement around the packs is still vital. And he’s not a primary forward, any talk of comparing him to someone like Toby Greene is bonkers. Best case scenario would be a shorter less skilled Mitch Wallis. That would be a waste of a gun midfielder.

A rotation that sees all our prime mids get their share on ball and forward is the best balance. 

Finally some sense! Viney is not a guy you play majority of the time fwd.  Rotate the best 4 through the midfield and rest one fwd. Oliver and Trac already spend time forward.

Viney's intensity and aggression is clearly underated by some on here. When the top teams come and hopefully finals come, no doubt Viney is starting on the ball.

Not sold on Gus yet, he has done well against the two worst teams in the comp, let's see if he can back it up against some decent teams

36 minutes ago, Skuit said:

Question: what happened to Jack overhead? I recall him taking some decent contested marks in his earlier years but that seems to have evaporated now. Is my memory wrong? 

Guessing that his foot injuries prevent him from jumping to any height.

3 hours ago, binman said:

As you suggest his forward pressure would be off the charts

I'm not 100% sold on this. Being a good pressure forward is about knowing where to be at any given moment. It takes some significant training as well as good instincts.

I'm not at all saying it can't be done, but I don't think the translation from see ball, get ball mid to small forward is a simple one.

If you take a look at other mids (Dusty, Danger, Fyfe etc) who go forward, they generally don't play that small forward role. They play in a simplified forward line, usually isolated as a full forward coming out of the square.

Edited August 12, 20204 yr by Cheesy D. Pun

I think Viney could spend a bit more time Wing/forward to allow Brayshaw more minutes in the guts and give the team a better overall balance

 

On 8/11/2020 at 11:44 AM, Lucifer's Hero said:

Doubt that will happen.  Goodwin gave him big raps after the game along the lines of he is a very smart footballer and will be with the club for a long time to come.

Sorry, but if we're canvassing Trade Viney as an option and not canvassing Trade Brayshaw, we're kidding ourselves.

2 hours ago, Cheesy D. Pun said:

I'm not 100% sold on this. Being a good pressure forward is about knowing where to be at any given moment. It takes some significant training as well as good instincts.

I'm not at all saying it can't be done, but I don't think the translation from see ball, get ball mid to small forward is a simple one.

If you take a look at other mids (Dusty, Danger, Fyfe etc) who go forward, they generally don't play that small forward role. They play in a simplified forward line, usually isolated as a full forward coming out of the square.

Fair points. Just as being defender is not natural for some (and is for others) and takes time to master so does any forward role, and the the small forward role even more so. A tough gig, no doubt

But my vibe is he has really good instincts up forward, and to my eye looks like he has those natural forward skills, not least of all his ability to crumb packs. Which why i'm bullish about his playing that tole, not exclusively, but as i say perhaps 70--30 or even 60--40.

And viney could also play a bit of defensive role where he looks to shut down players who like to run off HB or even get in the hole in front of intercept markers and disrupt them.

Plus i reckon he could offer a bit of protection for Kozzie the way Nieta used to for jeffy. 

 

 

 

I like it. 

Could rotate between him and Trac/Oliver forward. Oliver is a solid mark and well everyone knows Tracc is great in front of goals

It's a hard one but I don't think there is enough sample size for Brayshaw to play large minutes in guts just yet. 

He needs to get back to some really good form and do it against Pies/Saints and few other times before his time in there can be worthwhile. 

Viney, Kozzie and Spargo could be too much of a midget fwd line as we do tend to bomb it in. 

Would be cool to see but I think Brayshaw will slot back into that low TOG role 

14 minutes ago, MF-C said:

I like it. 

Could rotate between him and Trac/Oliver forward. Oliver is a solid mark and well everyone knows Tracc is great in front of goals

It's a hard one but I don't think there is enough sample size for Brayshaw to play large minutes in guts just yet. 

He needs to get back to some really good form and do it against Pies/Saints and few other times before his time in there can be worthwhile. 

Viney, Kozzie and Spargo could be too much of a midget fwd line as we do tend to bomb it in. 

Would be cool to see but I think Brayshaw will slot back into that low TOG role 

Have you watched Richmond Football Club play before?

Here is an article about how we are changing our game style.  One thing is to not play-on as much and slow down our response time.  We saw the beginnings of vs Carlton in the second qtr but we weren't too good at it then back then. But have improved immensely in the last month or two melbourne-demons-stats-finals-chances-analysis

Less chaos, more composue!

I quote it here because there is an interesting stat about Jack.  15 of 17 players have reduced there play on %.  Jack has increased his by 12%.

For a while I've had a sense that Jack plays his own game, his way. 

It may be a long bow to draw but one wonders if he is playing to coaching instructions.

 

Edit:  Fritsch has also gone up but I suspect that has more to do with moving from defence to fwd.

Edited August 12, 20204 yr by Lucifer's Hero

I can see an argument for trading Jack is he was happy or disruptive but not the one to improve balance of the midfield. For once in my life we are blessed with a full complement of midfielders. lets keep them. Viney has value as a forward but it is a matter of selling it to him and teaching an old dog some new tricks. He deserves to have an opportunity to be more creative and hit the scoreboard in his later career with some bursts through the midfield. Viney and Pickett will take two good defenders and make others nervous with Wied and jacko bringing ball to ground.

Saying you can't have Viney, Petracca, Brayshaw and Oliver in the same side is like saying Brisbane would done better if they got rid of one of Voss, Black, Lappin and Akermanis.