Game plans, tactics and all that jazz

[Wrecker46 2,968]

13 hours ago, Its Time for Back to Back said:

@binman, @Axis of Bob, @Engorged Onion

I expect to see our Centre Clearance wins improve. Our Hitout domination didn't translate very often into an equivalent win in centre clearances. I expect to see Dogger more in the ruck this season so maybe our Hitout wins will decrease overall however our clearances will probably go up as his post hitout input is becoming so significant and Gawny in his book has flagged that Dogger has taught him to improve this aspect of his game. 

 

 

I heard Goodwin say in a podcast that Gawn sometimes deliberately taps it to Viney's opponent and Viney smashes them.

I don't think our aim is to win every single centre clearance when we win the hit out.

The more we mix it up the less predictable we are. It's no good having the best tap ruckman in the league if the opposition know where he is going to tap it.

[layzie 33,794]

3 hours ago, Wrecker46 said:

I heard Goodwin say in a podcast that Gawn sometimes deliberately taps it to Viney's opponent and Viney smashes them.

I don't think our aim is to win every single centre clearance when we win the hit out.

The more we mix it up the less predictable we are. It's no good having the best tap ruckman in the league if the opposition know where he is going to tap it.

I think I've learned more about stoppages structures this year than any other. Sweepers and quadrants etc.

But in regards to this it wouldn't surprise me if the better tap ruckmen were able to do this at will, it's not always about having the ball. 

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

53 minutes ago, layzie said:

I think I've learned more about stoppages structures this year than any other. Sweepers and quadrants etc.

But in regards to this it wouldn't surprise me if the better tap ruckmen were able to do this at will, it's not always about having the ball. 

Yet the commentators simplify it for the masses, and assume that the midfield group are only operating well if clean take-aways occur.

[binman 42,902]

20 hours ago, Its Time for Back to Back said:

@binman, @Axis of Bob, @Engorged Onion et al, I would like to revisit the topic of clearances. If you stand still in this competition you are dead so what changes if any are we going to see this season. 

It seemed pretty clear as last season went on that there was a bit of a change towards working on winning clearances by the end of the season compared to the first half when it seemed the coaches were happy to concede clearances and rely on winning post clearance possessions. Yze said mid season you don't want to lose clearances because you don't want to concede territory to the opposition. That's a bit simplified but it seems to have been the trend.

I've put together this table of clearance stat's for all 8 games against our finals competitors as a starting point for discussion on whether we can predict any new trends for this season. It's a shame I couldn't add in Post Clearance stat's as they are so highly rated by coaches. MFC stats are the first ones. 

 

First stand out stat for me is that we only lost 1 of the 8 games v Dogs in the wet when we went through our mini slump. 

Second observation is that on all these stats it appears the Lions are closest to us and the team we'll have to watch out for the most this season. 

Stats obviously have to be taken with a good measure of interpretation. For instance I'm not sure how much we learn for this season from the Dogs stats. The second game was in the wet during our slump and if we'd kicked straight we probably would have won anyway. Personally I don't believe the size of the GF blow out is a true guide of their competitiveness against us. 

We improved our Centre clearances against every team as the season progressed except v Cats in the Prelim where inexplicably we lost them 11-16, only won stoppages by 1 and lost total clearances by 4 yet had our biggest win of any of the games. 

We only lost Centre clearances in 2 games, the Prelim and rd 12 v Lions. 

We won contested possession in every game except rd 23 with Cats when we were even. Conversely we lost Uncontested possessions in every game except Rd 12 & the Prelim.

The Cats were within 3 Hitouts of us in the Prelim and won Centre clearances 16-11. 

For what it's worth here's my predictions :

I expect to see our Centre Clearance wins improve. Our Hitout domination didn't translate very often into an equivalent win in centre clearances. I expect to see Dogger more in the ruck this season so maybe our Hitout wins will decrease overall however our clearances will probably go up as his post hitout input is becoming so significant and Gawny in his book has flagged that Dogger has taught him to improve this aspect of his game. 

I expect stoppage clearances to continue to improve. I thought there was a significant improvement by the end of the season compared to the beginning and I think this will continue. As a result I expect to see our Uncontested possessions to increase. 

I expect the connection into the forward line to continue to improve as we have a more settled forward mix and more time to work together. 

 

Thanks for the stats IT - they make for interesting reading.

I had planned to watch last season in order - one a week culminating in the GF just before  the 2022 season starts. My thought was to post some short comments about each game - i even started a thread for it!

But it took a while for me to get keen to watch them again and once i did have just watched them at random times (ie not weekly).  And i didn't feel like over analyzing them and have just been enjoying them for enjoyment sake. So haven't bothered with a running commentary on them.  

That said, some interesting themes on the tactical front have emerged for me, things I missed or didn't fully appreciate during the season. I'll post some of those thoughts in this thread once i finish watching the season. 

But a reflection on clearances. 

Coincidentally, i watched the Dogs round 19 game last night (after a slow start i'm ahead of schedule). It really reinforced my thoughts at the time that Goody was playing ducks and drakes in that game - keeping his tactical powder dry so to speak. 

One example was our clearances.

Goody replicated the round 11 set up in terms of Harmes running with Libba (i'd describe it as a soft tag), not locking down Macrae at all (barely put any defensive work into him) and allowing Daniel to be free behind the stoppage (defensive side) and play his customary sweeper/distributor role.  

Macrae had a whopping 38 possessions, and with 9, their equal most clearances. Critically, he also had 8 inside 50s and 9 score involvements (and 532 metres gained).

Daniel had 34 possessions, 5 clearances, 2 inside 50s and six score involvements (and 415 metres gained).

But come Grand Final Goody changed this set up.

He didn't run even a soft tag on Libba - just allowed Viney (and sparrow when giving jack a chop out) to go head too head with the him. Libba's numbers were almost the same in round 19 and the GF.

I predicted before the GF that Goody would not allow Daniel so much space. But whilst he tightened up on Daniel in the second half, he largely replicated the round 19 approach.

And i think he did so because Daniels' influence is over rated. I focused a bit on Daniel when watching the round 19 replay last night and as was the case in the GF, so many of his possessions are just fluff - lateral short kicks that don't facilitate a switch or create scoring opportunities. And they give us time to set up our defensive structure ahead of the ball.  

In the GF, Daniel had, on paper, arguably a better game than round 19. He had 37 possessions (22 of which were uncontested), 631 meters gained and 5 inside 50s.

But critically, he could only manage 2 clearances and a paltry (for a player getting so many possessions) 2 score involvements.

Salem's numbers in the GF make for an interesting comparison given they play a similar role. Despite having 10 fewer possessions, Salem had 8 more meters gained (639), 2 more inside 50s and of most significance, SIX more score involvements.  

Daniel, despite his high numbers, didn't really hurt us in any of the four (inc. the preseason match) games we played against them in 2021. 

But McRae did.

So in the biggest game of all, for the first time, Goody, put a lot of defensive work into Macrea (something i did correctly predict). And it a had huge impact on how effective the dogs were when winning a clearance and indeed their overall fortunes. 

The numbers tell the tale - 11 less possessions than round 19, 5 less clearances and 144 less metres gained. Reflecting Goody's tactical shift to deny Macrae time and space and limit his impact at stoppages, he had 6 less uncontested possessions - important because of how damaging he is with any time and space.

But the key numbers are inside 50 and score involvements. In the GF, compared to round 19, Macrae had 5 less inside 50s and an incredible 5 fewer score involvements. 

I know there are stats about scores from clearances, but frustratingly i think Champion data lock them up as i can't find any. Really the critical stat is how often a team score directly from a clearance. 

Macrea is most damaging when  the Dogs win a clearance and feed it out to him. We basically took that strength away and as a result really limited his impact.  

Conversely, compared to round 19 (and indeed all previous 2021 games), we were incredibly effective in terms of scoring from center clearances in the GF.

For mine that is in large part a function of Goody keeping his tactical powder dry. He refused to show his hand with clearances and clearly they were working on different set ups and set plays for use in the finals. The employed some of these to devastating effect right through the finals.

We were brilliant all season at absorbing pressure and not allowing teams to really hurt us when on top (save a handful of examples) - and responding finally with a goal of our own. 

What i found interesting when watching the replays in terms of clearances is that often we followed up that goal with another quick one from a center clearance to wrest back momentum completely. There was good example in the third q of the round 17 Port game.

I wonder if that is a specific tactic, one that involves going to a particular center square set up that is infrequently used (but practiced throughout the season at training) that is maybe a more high risk, high reward (eg an aggressive set up ahead of the ball) set up/set play.

In terms of next season, i agree they will tinker with things in terms of clearances. But there's no value in showing all your cards in the home and away season as opposition coaches will just go to town on them. So i think by in large they will keep the same set up and systems they used in the 2021 and work on their surprise set ups to use as required in home and away matches and dial them up comes finals. 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by binman

[FlashInThePan 1,893]

7 hours ago, rpfc said:

Petracca and Oliver clearances are a quality that make it hard to measure clearance numbers. The come back in 3rd and the start of the 4th had power running clearances out of the centre that lead directly to Fritschs speccie recover goal, the next Brown goal, the Sparrow goal, Oliver’s goal and the first of the last to Brown. Not to mention the stoppage clearance from Harmes that started the music…

I think that metres gained from stoppage or scores from stoppage are a more accurate way to measure the impact we are having. 

I think this is the point that the Mongrel Punt are trying to make. If Oliver gets 10+ clearances then we are extremely likely to win. Meaning his clearances are more damaging than most. Certainly from the look of games in 2021 the same is true for Petracca.

[deelusions from afar 1,810]

3 hours ago, binman said:

Thanks for the stats IT - they make for interesting reading.

I had planned to watch last season in order - one a week culminating in the GF just before  the 2022 season starts. My thought was to post some short comments about each game - i even started a thread for it!

But it took a while for me to get keen to watch them again and once i did have just watched them at random times (ie not weekly).  And i didn't feel like over analyzing them and have just been enjoying them for enjoyment sake. So haven't bothered with a running commentary on them.  

That said, some interesting themes on the tactical front have emerged for me, things I missed or didn't fully appreciate during the season. I'll post some of those thoughts in this thread once i finish watching the season. 

But a reflection on clearances. 

Coincidentally, i watched the Dogs round 19 game last night (after a slow start i'm ahead of schedule). It really reinforced my thoughts at the time that Goody was playing ducks and drakes in that game - keeping his tactical powder dry so to speak. 

One example was our clearances.

Goody replicated the round 11 set up in terms of Harmes running with Libba (i'd describe it as a soft tag), not locking down Macrae at all (barely put any defensive work into him) and allowing Daniel to be free behind the stoppage (defensive side) and play his customary sweeper/distributor role.  

Macrae had a whopping 38 possessions, and with 9, their equal most clearances. Critically, he also had 8 inside 50s and 9 score involvements (and 532 metres gained).

Daniel had 34 possessions, 5 clearances, 2 inside 50s and six score involvements (and 415 metres gained).

But come Grand Final Goody changed this set up.

He didn't run even a soft tag on Libba - just allowed Viney (and sparrow when giving jack a chop out) to go head too head with the him. Libba's numbers were almost the same in round 19 and the GF.

I predicted before the GF that Goody would not allow Daniel so much space. But whilst he tightened up on Daniel in the second half, he largely replicated the round 19 approach.

And i think he did so because Daniels' influence is over rated. I focused a bit on Daniel when watching the round 19 replay last night and as was the case in the GF, so many of his possessions are just fluff - lateral short kicks that don't facilitate a switch or create scoring opportunities. And they give us time to set up our defensive structure ahead of the ball.  

In the GF, Daniel had, on paper, arguably a better game than round 19. He had 37 possessions (22 of which were uncontested), 631 meters gained and 5 inside 50s.

But critically, he could only manage 2 clearances and a paltry (for a player getting so many possessions) 2 score involvements.

Salem's numbers in the GF make for an interesting comparison given they play a similar role. Despite having 10 fewer possessions, Salem had 8 more meters gained (639), 2 more inside 50s and of most significance, SIX more score involvements.  

Daniel, despite his high numbers, didn't really hurt us in any of the four (inc. the preseason match) games we played against them in 2021. 

But McRae did.

So in the biggest game of all, for the first time, Goody, put a lot of defensive work into Macrea (something i did correctly predict). And it a had huge impact on how effective the dogs were when winning a clearance and indeed their overall fortunes. 

The numbers tell the tale - 11 less possessions than round 19, 5 less clearances and 144 less metres gained. Reflecting Goody's tactical shift to deny Macrae time and space and limit his impact at stoppages, he had 6 less uncontested possessions - important because of how damaging he is with any time and space.

But the key numbers are inside 50 and score involvements. In the GF, compared to round 19, Macrae had 5 less inside 50s and an incredible 5 fewer score involvements. 

I know there are stats about scores from clearances, but frustratingly i think Champion data lock them up as i can't find any. Really the critical stat is how often a team score directly from a clearance. 

Macrea is most damaging when  the Dogs win a clearance and feed it out to him. We basically took that strength away and as a result really limited his impact.  

Conversely, compared to round 19 (and indeed all previous 2021 games), we were incredibly effective in terms of scoring from center clearances in the GF.

For mine that is in large part a function of Goody keeping his tactical powder dry. He refused to show his hand with clearances and clearly they were working on different set ups and set plays for use in the finals. The employed some of these to devastating effect right through the finals.

We were brilliant all season at absorbing pressure and not allowing teams to really hurt us when on top (save a handful of examples) - and responding finally with a goal of our own. 

What i found interesting when watching the replays in terms of clearances is that often we followed up that goal with another quick one from a center clearance to wrest back momentum completely. There was good example in the third q of the round 17 Port game.

I wonder if that is a specific tactic, one that involves going to a particular center square set up that is infrequently used (but practiced throughout the season at training) that is maybe a more high risk, high reward (eg an aggressive set up ahead of the ball) set up/set play.

In terms of next season, i agree they will tinker with things in terms of clearances. But there's no value in showing all your cards in the home and away season as opposition coaches will just go to town on them. So i think by in large they will keep the same set up and systems they used in the 2021 and work on their surprise set ups to use as required in home and away matches and dial them up comes finals. 

 

Really interesting analysis.  Most of it sounds spot on to me.  You could see from the beginning of the game we were targeting Macrae - from memory there were 2 or 3 heavy hits in the first 5 minutes.  Viney in the first 5 seconds I think!

Will be interesting to see how the centre square setups work in 2022.  The bombers exposed the dogs in this area in the lead up to finals and we exposed everyone in the finals.  Will this mean that other teams will try to do the same or will it cause teams to go more defensive.  I would expect the latter for most teams.

 

Interesting also your comment on Daniel - I agree he didn't have a huge influence in the GF.  But I have heard Goody say he was getting concerned about him.  In the preseason game Daniel and Bont got on top and that's how they towelled us up (according to Goody) and that's what was happening in the 2nd / early 3rd Q of the GF.  Obviously Goody might not tell the whole truth in interviews but it seemed genuine.

Oliver took care of Bont in the second half and I'm sure someone had the job to shut down Daniel (not sure who it was).  But to be fair to Daniel, once we got going, none of their defenders could get near it.  We were playing flawless football and the dogs didn't have the fitness to go with us.

[Its Time for Another 4,208]

5 hours ago, binman said:

Thanks for the stats IT - they make for interesting reading.

I had planned to watch last season in order - one a week culminating in the GF just before  the 2022 season starts. My thought was to post some short comments about each game - i even started a thread for it!

What i found interesting when watching the replays in terms of clearances is that often we followed up that goal with another quick one from a center clearance to wrest back momentum completely. There was good example in the third q of the round 17 Port game.

I wonder if that is a specific tactic, one that involves going to a particular center square set up that is infrequently used (but practiced throughout the season at training) that is maybe a more high risk, high reward (eg an aggressive set up ahead of the ball) set up/set play.

In terms of next season, i agree they will tinker with things in terms of clearances. But there's no value in showing all your cards in the home and away season as opposition coaches will just go to town on them. So i think by in large they will keep the same set up and systems they used in the 2021 and work on their surprise set ups to use as required in home and away matches and dial them up comes finals. 

 

First of all, thanks again. As I've posted before this is my favourite Board on Demonland and the insights from you and others are fantastic.

Funnily enough I have also been watching every game in order. I'm half way through the Suns game. The only game I couldn't bring myself to watch again was the QB loss. I have three takeaways. First is how much the backline structure stood out right from round 1 and how it saved us in a few of the early games. Secondly how disfunctional the forward line was for most of the season and how much that improved right at the end of the season when we got continuity once BBB was settled in the lineup. Thirdly how much the clearance work improved especially late in the season. 

Interesting what you're saying about different clearances for different purposes. One thing I feel very confident about is that no other team is going to have a ruckman like Jackson with the same post hitout impact. Gawny says he's working on it I suspect we are going to see more work with them creating corridors for the midfielders to clear the ball out. Jackson's work in Bang Bang Bang mostly was no more than doing that other than the beautiful clearance for Clarry. 

Out of interest do you see anyone possibly taking Gus's wing some of the time to free him up to perhaps do some clearance rotations. It's going to be interesting to see what happens with Tommo now Petty is doing so well in his position in defence.   

[Watson11 2,240]

7 hours ago, binman said:

Thanks for the stats IT - they make for interesting reading.

I had planned to watch last season in order - one a week culminating in the GF just before  the 2022 season starts. My thought was to post some short comments about each game - i even started a thread for it!

But it took a while for me to get keen to watch them again and once i did have just watched them at random times (ie not weekly).  And i didn't feel like over analyzing them and have just been enjoying them for enjoyment sake. So haven't bothered with a running commentary on them.  

That said, some interesting themes on the tactical front have emerged for me, things I missed or didn't fully appreciate during the season. I'll post some of those thoughts in this thread once i finish watching the season. 

But a reflection on clearances. 

Coincidentally, i watched the Dogs round 19 game last night (after a slow start i'm ahead of schedule). It really reinforced my thoughts at the time that Goody was playing ducks and drakes in that game - keeping his tactical powder dry so to speak. 

One example was our clearances.

Goody replicated the round 11 set up in terms of Harmes running with Libba (i'd describe it as a soft tag), not locking down Macrae at all (barely put any defensive work into him) and allowing Daniel to be free behind the stoppage (defensive side) and play his customary sweeper/distributor role.  

Macrae had a whopping 38 possessions, and with 9, their equal most clearances. Critically, he also had 8 inside 50s and 9 score involvements (and 532 metres gained).

Daniel had 34 possessions, 5 clearances, 2 inside 50s and six score involvements (and 415 metres gained).

But come Grand Final Goody changed this set up.

He didn't run even a soft tag on Libba - just allowed Viney (and sparrow when giving jack a chop out) to go head too head with the him. Libba's numbers were almost the same in round 19 and the GF.

I predicted before the GF that Goody would not allow Daniel so much space. But whilst he tightened up on Daniel in the second half, he largely replicated the round 19 approach.

And i think he did so because Daniels' influence is over rated. I focused a bit on Daniel when watching the round 19 replay last night and as was the case in the GF, so many of his possessions are just fluff - lateral short kicks that don't facilitate a switch or create scoring opportunities. And they give us time to set up our defensive structure ahead of the ball.  

In the GF, Daniel had, on paper, arguably a better game than round 19. He had 37 possessions (22 of which were uncontested), 631 meters gained and 5 inside 50s.

But critically, he could only manage 2 clearances and a paltry (for a player getting so many possessions) 2 score involvements.

Salem's numbers in the GF make for an interesting comparison given they play a similar role. Despite having 10 fewer possessions, Salem had 8 more meters gained (639), 2 more inside 50s and of most significance, SIX more score involvements.  

Daniel, despite his high numbers, didn't really hurt us in any of the four (inc. the preseason match) games we played against them in 2021. 

But McRae did.

So in the biggest game of all, for the first time, Goody, put a lot of defensive work into Macrea (something i did correctly predict). And it a had huge impact on how effective the dogs were when winning a clearance and indeed their overall fortunes. 

The numbers tell the tale - 11 less possessions than round 19, 5 less clearances and 144 less metres gained. Reflecting Goody's tactical shift to deny Macrae time and space and limit his impact at stoppages, he had 6 less uncontested possessions - important because of how damaging he is with any time and space.

But the key numbers are inside 50 and score involvements. In the GF, compared to round 19, Macrae had 5 less inside 50s and an incredible 5 fewer score involvements. 

I know there are stats about scores from clearances, but frustratingly i think Champion data lock them up as i can't find any. Really the critical stat is how often a team score directly from a clearance. 

Macrea is most damaging when  the Dogs win a clearance and feed it out to him. We basically took that strength away and as a result really limited his impact.  

Conversely, compared to round 19 (and indeed all previous 2021 games), we were incredibly effective in terms of scoring from center clearances in the GF.

For mine that is in large part a function of Goody keeping his tactical powder dry. He refused to show his hand with clearances and clearly they were working on different set ups and set plays for use in the finals. The employed some of these to devastating effect right through the finals.

We were brilliant all season at absorbing pressure and not allowing teams to really hurt us when on top (save a handful of examples) - and responding finally with a goal of our own. 

What i found interesting when watching the replays in terms of clearances is that often we followed up that goal with another quick one from a center clearance to wrest back momentum completely. There was good example in the third q of the round 17 Port game.

I wonder if that is a specific tactic, one that involves going to a particular center square set up that is infrequently used (but practiced throughout the season at training) that is maybe a more high risk, high reward (eg an aggressive set up ahead of the ball) set up/set play.

In terms of next season, i agree they will tinker with things in terms of clearances. But there's no value in showing all your cards in the home and away season as opposition coaches will just go to town on them. So i think by in large they will keep the same set up and systems they used in the 2021 and work on their surprise set ups to use as required in home and away matches and dial them up comes finals. 

 

Great analysis but surely the strategy is hide Viney all year and unleash him for finals.....

[DeeSpencer 25,679]

Not entirely convinced we put more time in to Macrae. More so the game just went up a notch and his style didn’t really fit in.

There was a shift later in the year to using the big 3 mids more, with Harmes a limited 4th and taking some wing minutes and Sparrow a very limited 5th.

The start of the year we used a lot of JJ, as well as Sparrow and Harmes at times. Plus the Nibbler and kossie minutes.

The coaches early priorities were to cut out the awful clean clearances against us and stop fighting for the same ball. Once that was sorted the aim got back to winning it. 

The crucial factor in the 3rd quarter blitz was our balance around the stoppage and ability to pressure the dogs in to errors. It wasn’t all out attack or ruck dominance. 

If the coaches aim to start back to basics then I don’t expect we’ll see dominant clearance numbers early. It will be the same process of rotating players in and being fundamentally sound.

[binman 42,902]

1 hour ago, Its Time for Back to Back said:

First of all, thanks again. As I've posted before this is my favourite Board on Demonland and the insights from you and others are fantastic.

Funnily enough I have also been watching every game in order. I'm half way through the Suns game. The only game I couldn't bring myself to watch again was the QB loss. I have three takeaways. First is how much the backline structure stood out right from round 1 and how it saved us in a few of the early games. Secondly how disfunctional the forward line was for most of the season and how much that improved right at the end of the season when we got continuity once BBB was settled in the lineup. Thirdly how much the clearance work improved especially late in the season. 

Interesting what you're saying about different clearances for different purposes. One thing I feel very confident about is that no other team is going to have a ruckman like Jackson with the same post hitout impact. Gawny says he's working on it I suspect we are going to see more work with them creating corridors for the midfielders to clear the ball out. Jackson's work in Bang Bang Bang mostly was no more than doing that other than the beautiful clearance for Clarry. 

Out of interest do you see anyone possibly taking Gus's wing some of the time to free him up to perhaps do some clearance rotations. It's going to be interesting to see what happens with Tommo now Petty is doing so well in his position in defence.   

You make an excellent point about Jackson, his post hit out work and his scope for his improvement. I hadn't really considered that in likelihood he is going to get better!

I watched the Port game the other night and one of goals came from a center clearance, where Jackson was in the ruck. The ruck contest was halved but Jackson managed to tap the ball forward with an open palm to Trac, who was  on the move, took a few steps and launched in deep inside 50. So clever from Jackson. 

I love the way Jackson and Gawn coordinate ruck duties - it look really organic and fluid.  And it means Gawn can be really flexible in terms of dropping back into defence or pushing forward. 

As you suggest Jackson will only improve his ruck craft and will get fitter and stronger.  A scary thought. And to your question about changes to clearances, this improvement may well bring some changes.

For one, Jackson will be better and with his leap might win more center clearances.

Two, as he gets stronger he will become even more a weapon at around the ground stoppages.  So he is likely to be more effective and win more clearances around the ground. And he might take more of them. 

And lastly he may end up doing more minutes in the ruck which might mean for instance gawn takes more throw in up forward. 

As for Gus, no i can't see them moving him from the wing. Watching the games again has really reinforced how important he was to our system and structure last year. Goody loves consistency and i think he will refrain frorm too many changes. The other thing is we a have a surfeit of contested ball winners, so he is not really needed on that front.  Makes it pretty hard for Rosman and Baker to get into the team. 

You're right about Thommo. I can't see him taking Petty's role. So where does he play?

I wondered the same thing about Hunt. Watching the games again i was reminded that he was really unlucky to get injured as Bowey made it impossible to drop him and its hard to see how they both play. I really liked what he brought tot he side last year and i'd love to see him back in the team. 

And Jordon is in the same boat. He was fantastic for us last year. But he he has to force his way back into the side all over again.

 

[tiers 2,832]

In an earlier post (can't remember which topic) it was noted how many times Daniel was in the vicinity of a goal opportunity for us - came late to stop Gus' diving mark; was nearly run over by Viney who was running with Clarry at bang, bang, bang; kicked it to Clarry who gave it to Tracca for TMac's first goal; bypassed by Kozzie who passed to Fritsch who passed to Langdon. There were others as well.

He is an accumulator, not a damager. By comparison Salem's kicks are damaging. We should not fear him.

Macrae and Hunter are two lefties who accumulate on their left foot. Play the other wing and they are neutered. By the way so is the Bont. The leftie trick worked for the dorks but is now passe.

 

[Wrecker46 2,968]

18 hours ago, binman said:

 

We were brilliant all season at absorbing pressure and not allowing teams to really hurt us when on top (save a handful of examples) - and responding finally with a goal of our own. 

What i found interesting when watching the replays in terms of clearances is that often we followed up that goal with another quick one from a center clearance to wrest back momentum completely. There was good example in the third q of the round 17 Port game.

I wonder if that is a specific tactic, one that involves going to a particular center square set up that is infrequently used (but practiced throughout the season at training) that is maybe a more high risk, high reward (eg an aggressive set up ahead of the ball) set up/set play.

 

Apparently Goody coaches from the bench to measure momentum and is good at it.

He goes to Yze and the rest of the coaches box for tactical changes depending on how he reads it.

Eg. If the opposition get a run on but he thinks it was a few lucky bounces he doesn't count that as momentum. But if the opposition get on top of us and he doesn't think it was a bit of luck he wants changes.

It wouldn't surprise me if we went with a more high risk reward structure after kicking a goal to build momentum.

 

[640MD 3,375]

13 hours ago, Its Time for Back to Back said:

First of all, thanks again. As I've posted before this is my favourite Board on Demonland and the insights from you and others are fantastic.

 

Whole heartedly agree,   most interesting discussion, going over it all makes me think I understand football.

Never did when I played,  Thanks to all of the posts,   and great name Its Time for Back to Back !

[layzie 33,794]

17 minutes ago, Wrecker46 said:

Apparently Goody coaches from the bench to measure momentum and is good at it.

He goes to Yze and the rest of the coaches box for tactical changes depending on how he reads it.

Eg. If the opposition get a run on but he thinks it was a few lucky bounces he doesn't count that as momentum. But if the opposition get on top of us and he doesn't think it was a bit of luck he wants changes.

It wouldn't surprise me if we went with a more high risk reward structure after kicking a goal to build momentum.

 

Wonder how many coaches will be coaching from the bench in pre season matches?

[Its Time for Another 4,208]

2 hours ago, layzie said:

Wonder how many coaches will be coaching from the bench in pre season matches?

Hats off to Roosy. He was the first to do it in the AFL while still at the Swans. More and more are starting to do it now. 

[Its Time for Another 4,208]

14 hours ago, binman said:

You make an excellent point about Jackson, his post hit out work and his scope for his improvement. I hadn't really considered that in likelihood he is going to get better!

I watched the Port game the other night and one of goals came from a center clearance, where Jackson was in the ruck. The ruck contest was halved but Jackson managed to tap the ball forward with an open palm to Trac, who was  on the move, took a few steps and launched in deep inside 50. So clever from Jackson. 

I love the way Jackson and Gawn coordinate ruck duties - it look really organic and fluid.  And it means Gawn can be really flexible in terms of dropping back into defence or pushing forward. 

As you suggest Jackson will only improve his ruck craft and will get fitter and stronger.  A scary thought. And to your question about changes to clearances, this improvement may well bring some changes.

For one, Jackson will be better and with his leap might win more center clearances.

Two, as he gets stronger he will become even more a weapon at around the ground stoppages.  So he is likely to be more effective and win more clearances around the ground. And he might take more of them. 

And lastly he may end up doing more minutes in the ruck which might mean for instance gawn takes more throw in up forward. 

As for Gus, no i can't see them moving him from the wing. Watching the games again has really reinforced how important he was to our system and structure last year. Goody loves consistency and i think he will refrain frorm too many changes. The other thing is we a have a surfeit of contested ball winners, so he is not really needed on that front.  Makes it pretty hard for Rosman and Baker to get into the team. 

You're right about Thommo. I can't see him taking Petty's role. So where does he play?

I wondered the same thing about Hunt. Watching the games again i was reminded that he was really unlucky to get injured as Bowey made it impossible to drop him and its hard to see how they both play. I really liked what he brought tot he side last year and i'd love to see him back in the team. 

And Jordon is in the same boat. He was fantastic for us last year. But he he has to force his way back into the side all over again.

 

Jackson looks to have significantly beefed up again this pre season. Maybe it’s my MFCSS kicking in but I can’t help thinking the Club would have tried to extend him some time ago rather than heading well into the last season of his contract. Hope and pray there’s not a risk of losing him. I’m sure Eagles and Freo will be throwing everything st him and can pay him as their prime marquee player something we won’t be able to match. Just hope the lure of the success over the next couple of years will be enough for him to stay. 
Agree about Hunt although I think Hibbo kept him out at the end not Bowey so I expect him to be straight back in the team for Hibbo. I didn’t realise how outstanding he was right from the beginning of the season till I went back and watched again. IMO the most improved right from the beginning. ANB the most improved over the whole season and Jacko building phenomenally. 
Im sure you’re right about Gus in the short term. I realised in going back that I didn’t understand what he was doing earlier in the season but it’s there to see from the beginning. However as good as he’s been I believe his best position is still on ball. He’s filled the wing role because we didn’t have anyone else. I think I’m a season or two when a more natural winger comes through maybe Howes I could see someone like Harmsey being under pressure from Gus for an on ball role. Don’t forget Howes in discussing future wingmen. Early indications for me are he’s come in as a natural step up from Rosman and Baker is now only a backup. 
 

[Its Time for Another 4,208]

@binman, @Axis of Bob, @Engorged Onion while we're on the topic of clearances. Any theory on Bang Bang Bang and what it might indicate for this season. 

My first observation is having worked my way through most of the season's games I realised that there were several games where we went Bang Bang Bang. The GF wasn't a unique one off. It's just that they didn't have the significance within the games or in the GF and maybe slipped under the covers.

I went back over Bang Bang Bang literally frame by frame trying to understand what happened. My biggest observation and I might well be wrong was that because Treloar had done so well in the second quarter it looked like Bevo switched him from being the outside receiver at stoppages to being the in and under player and Liberatore the reverse. Some experts said the Bulldogs made a blunder by not putting a player on our side of the centre clearances to stop us getting the front side exit. Liberatore actually was there but at each of the centre bounces for BBB he couldn't help himself and ran into the contest instead of staying outside to block our exit. The result was Treloar wasn't effective at the drop of the ball and this deprived Bont being able to clear the ball because he was positioned as the outside receiver. 

I reckon there was an element of dumb luck with centimetre touches leading to clearances. Viney's attack at the fall of the ball was significant in two of the three and Jacko was able to create blocks which opened corridors in two of them and the actual handball clearance in one. 

I reckon the Doggies will fix the set up in round 1 and will get back to their usual excellent structure. 

I'm sure there was a lot more to and hopefully some of the wiser heads than mine can identify them. 

[FlashInThePan 1,893]

Those front exit clearances coming from a left or right tap to either Clarrie or Trac on the burst look like a set play to me. I was watching the port game last night and we did exactly the same thing in the 3rd when they started to get a run on.

 Good luck stopping either of them when they take the ball at pace, with not only their natural strength but also a ton of momentum.

[binman 42,902]

56 minutes ago, FlashInThePan said:

Those front exit clearances coming from a left or right tap to either Clarrie or Trac on the burst look like a set play to me. I was watching the port game last night and we did exactly the same thing in the 3rd when they started to get a run on.

 Good luck stopping either of them when they take the ball at pace, with not only their natural strength but also a ton of momentum.

That's my take too. 

The goals you mention is i think the same one i noted that Jackson tapped it forward to trac who was on the move,  received it well forward of the center and took a few steps before roosting it. 

[binman 42,902]

On 2/4/2022 at 8:31 AM, Wrecker46 said:

Apparently Goody coaches from the bench to measure momentum and is good at it.

He goes to Yze and the rest of the coaches box for tactical changes depending on how he reads it.

Eg. If the opposition get a run on but he thinks it was a few lucky bounces he doesn't count that as momentum. But if the opposition get on top of us and he doesn't think it was a bit of luck he wants changes.

It wouldn't surprise me if we went with a more high risk reward structure after kicking a goal to build momentum.

 

I hadn't heard that (about goody coaching from the bench to get a feel for momentum).

Makes a lot of sense and gels with one of the key things i've picked up  watching the replays from last season - how dam good we are at absorbing sustained opposition pressure and negating any momentum they have.

So many times teams have stretches of relative dominance, but don't hurt us on the scoreboard.

I watched the Port game the other night and the third quarter was almost a mirror of the dogs' third quarter in the GF. If anything Port were even more on top than the dogs, but like the dogs  threw everything they had us at us.

But for all their effort, Port, like the dogs, could only manage two goals in the third. They got within 5 points with their second. We then kicked an answering goal, against the run of play, and seized the momentum.

We had a shot at goal for a point almost immediately and then 3 minutes after our first goal of the third, kicked our second to take the lead back out to 3 goals. And it was game over. Port had fired their best - and last - shot and we held them at bay in the last.

What was incredible about that game is watching it again, Port had good stretches where they were on top, yet we looked in control all game.

How good we were at absorbing sustained opposition pressure and negating their momentum was evident watching the games during the season. But what i have really noticed more watching the replays in the last few weeks is how we go about doing so. 

Which is where your  comment about goody coaching from the bench to get a feel for momentum intersects. Most teams try to wrest back momentum by scoring a goal themselves. Footy 101. But we seem to be happy to simply absorb pressure and make it hard for teams to score.

And a big part of that, an element i think is unique to the dees, is we are really happy (well happy is probably the wrong word - prepared?) for the ball to be in our defensive half for long stretches. Unlike most teams we don't panic or take big risks. And we are happy to dump kick it out of our 50, even if it is likely to come straight back because the other team have a wall set up. We just deal with it again when it comes back inside 50. 

So, we negate. But what i have really noticed is what we do once we score and stop the opposition's momentum - we attack, and switch from a defensive mindset to an aggressive one.  Like holding your serve in tennis after getting a break, we lock in the change in momentum with one or two quick follow up goals.

It reminds me of boxing. Absorb pressure, let your opponent tire, land a punch that stops their momentum - and then attack and get all the momentum. But unlike your opponent, take full advantage of that momentum 

Another key element in that battle for control of momentum athat i really picked up on is how we use the clock as a weapon, something I hadn't fully appreciated. It reminds me a bit of how soccer teams look to manipulate time left. Its like the clock is another team mate.

Control is the key word. We control the tempo and the clock so much and so well.

A big difference between the home and way games and the finals is in season often once we have got the momentum back, and got the lead out to 3  plus goals we go back to control mode. Which explains why so many of our wins were in the 3-5 goal range.

But in the finals, particularly the prelim and GF, once we got momentum we never went back into control mode. We just kept attacking - which explains how high our scores were.  

I expect we will see exactly the same pattern in 2022. Which can be frustrating to watch in season as you want them to put teams away and get a percentage boost. But watching the replays you really get sense of how much energy they conserve by not going all out attack wire to wire.

Again, the Port game is good example.  We won the game only kicking 4 goals in the second half (though frustratingly we kicked 10 points in the second half!). As i noted we absorbed their pressure in the third.

Despite it only being a 3 goal difference at 3 quarter time, Port never looked a chance in the last and we were happy to control the tempo and and suck time from the clock. Port were stuffed and if we had gone all out attack we could have beaten them by 10 goals. But at what cost? Save your legs. 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by binman

[Wrecker46 2,968]

1 hour ago, binman said:

I hadn't heard that (about goody coaching from the bench to get a feel for momentum).

Makes a lot of sense and gels with one of the key things i've picked up  watching the replays from last season - how dam good we are at absorbing sustained opposition pressure and negating any momentum they have.

So many times teams have stretches of relative dominance, but don't hurt us on the scoreboard. I watched the Port game the other night and the third quarter was almost a mirror of the dogs' third quarter in the GF. If anything Port were even more on top than the dogs and three everything at us.

But for all their effort, Port, like the dogs, could only manage two goals in the third. They got within 5 points with their second . We then kicked an answering goal, against the run of play. and seized momentum. We got a point almost immediately and then 3 minutes after our first goal of the third, kicked our second to take the lead back out to 3 goals. And it was game over. Port had fired their best - and last - shot and we held them at bay in the last.

What was incredible about that game is watching it again, Port had god stretches' where they were on top, yet we looked in control all game.

How good we were at absorbing sustained opposition pressure and negating their momentum was evident watching the games during the season. But what i have really noticed more watching the replays in the last few weeks is how we do that. 

Which is where your  comment about goody coaching from the bench to get a feel for momentum intersects. Most teams try to wrest back momentum by scoring a goal themselves. Footy 101. But we seem to be happy to simply absorb pressure.

And a big part of that, an element i think is unique to the dees, is we are really happy (well happy is probably the wrong word - prepared?) for the ball to be in our defensive half for long stretches. Unlike most teams we don't panic or take a big risk. And we are happy to dump kick it out of our 50, even if it is likely to come straight back because they have wall set up. We just deal with it again. 

So, we negate. But what i have really noticed is what we do once we score and stop the opposition's momentum - we attack, switch from a defensive mindset to an aggressive one, and like winning your serve in tennis after getting a break, we lock in the change in momentum with one or two quick follow up goals.

It reminds me of boxing. Absorb pressure, let you opponent tire, land a punch that stops their momentum - and then attack and get all the momentum. But unlike your opponent, take full advantage of that momentum 

Another key element in that battle for control of momentum and negating opposition momentum that i really picked up on is how we use the clock as weapon, something I hadn't fully appreciate. It reminds me a bit of how soccer teams look to manipulate time left. Its like the clock is another team mate. Control is the key word. We control the tempo and the clock so much and so well.

A big difference between the home and way games and the finals is in season often once we have got the momentum back, and got the lead out to 3  plus goals we go back to control mode. Which explains why so many of our wins were in the 3-5 goal range.

But in the finals, particularly the prelim and GF, once we got momentum we never went back into control mode. We just kept attacking - which explains how high our scores were.  

I expect we will see exactly the same pattern in 2022. Which can be frustrating to watch in season as you want them to put teams away and get a percentage boost. But watching the replays you really get sense of how much energy they conserve by not going all out attack wire to wire.

Again, the Port game is good example.  We won the game only kicking 4 goals in the second half (though frustratingly we kicked 10 points in the second half!). As i noted we absorbed their pressure in the third.

Despite it only being a 3 goal difference at 3 quarter time, Port never looked a chance in the last and we were happy to control the tempo and and suck time from the clock. Port were stuffed and if we had gone all out attack we could have beaten them by 10 goals. But at what cost? Save your legs. 

 

In one of the millions of clips and podcasts I've seen / listened to since the GF i can't remember which one apparently Oliver, Petracca and Viney met in the centre while we had asserted dominance and they discussed whether to just slow the tempo but Truck said F-it let's bury them and the others agreed.

[binman 42,902]

5 minutes ago, Wrecker46 said:

In one of the millions of clips and podcasts I've seen / listened to since the GF i can't remember which one apparently Oliver, Petracca and Viney met in the centre while we had asserted dominance and they discussed whether to just slow the tempo but Truck said F-it let's bury them and the others agreed.

I hadn't heard that either!

It certainly reinforces the idea that the team consciously try to control tempo.

All teams do to an extent of course, but controlling tempo and dialing up and won how aggressive/attacking we are seems to be key part of our tactics.  

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

1 hour ago, Wrecker46 said:

In one of the millions of clips and podcasts I've seen / listened to since the GF i can't remember which one apparently Oliver, Petracca and Viney met in the centre while we had asserted dominance and they discussed whether to just slow the tempo but Truck said F-it let's bury them and the others agreed.

Correct. Was told that one from inside. 
those last 3 goals were all on the players…

[Fritta and Turner 4,403]

On 2/3/2022 at 8:37 PM, tiers said:

In an earlier post (can't remember which topic) it was noted how many times Daniel was in the vicinity of a goal opportunity for us - came late to stop Gus' diving mark; was nearly run over by Viney who was running with Clarry at bang, bang, bang; kicked it to Clarry who gave it to Tracca for TMac's first goal; bypassed by Kozzie who passed to Fritsch who passed to Langdon. There were others as well.

Leaving Sparrow twice, once for the Sparrow goal and the other for Sparrow to kick to BBB in the last.

When to attack the ball carrier and when to stick to the receiver is an art, at which Daniel failed miserably.

[Axis of Bob 11,790]

On 2/4/2022 at 9:11 PM, Its Time for Back to Back said:

I reckon there was an element of dumb luck with centimetre touches leading to clearances.

There is an element of dumb luck in clearances and, indeed, almost all contested possession. Anyone who has played footy and been inside a stoppage will understand exactly how random a lot of it is. The hit out is about a 50/50, the ruckman can't really see what's happening on the ground, the tap is hard to direct under pressure, the ball takes a lot of time to hit the ground, opposition players trying to stop a clean possessions,  .... and, on top of this, the ball is a weird shape and could bounce anywhere. All of it means that both teams need to balance defence and attack, so even a dominant ruck cannot run basketball style set plays ... because one bad bounce or deflected tap could mean the opposition goes bang, bang, bang. 

But some teams are better than others, but even the best and worst teams are pretty close to each other. The best and worst centre clearance teams were still only 3.4 centre clearances a game away from each other, which is a big deal but demonstrates that, in a match between the best and worst using season averages, the best team would still only win 57% of the centre clearances (and only 54% of total clearances).

It took a lot of luck to go bang, bang, bang, but you need to set your team up to take advantage of that. We were able to turn clearances into goals, whilst preventing the opposition doing so, which is a big tick for the setup. The Dogs were not able to do that .... they had too much faith in their ability to win clearances without investing enough into what happens if they don't.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Axis of Bob