Jack Viney Restricted Free Agent

[deebug 1,754]

If it has taken this long, then it seems more than likely Jack is gone.

 

[WERRIDEE 5,479]

Just now, deebug said:

If it has taken this long, then it seems more than likely Jack is gone.

 

Why Fritsch hasn't signed either is he gone?

[deebug 1,754]

1 minute ago, WERRIDEE said:

Why Fritsch hasn't signed either is he gone?

I thought Fritsch had signed a few weeks back?

[Axis of Bob 11,836]

4 minutes ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

I think we all can be guilty of concentrating too much on a player's limitations and not their strengths.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm as guilty as anyone. 

6 minutes ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

Out of interest, in doing this research did you ascertain why (or form any conclusion) we were often so poor at clearances despite having the dominant tap ruckman ?  It didn't always matter, as we often won games, but lost the clearances, including centre clearances.  And it was despite having the number clearance player for the year - Oliver.

Either Max wasn't using it correctly, or one or two of those stoppage mids were getting beaten.

Yeah, just a few things. I don't have the figures but I'd suggest we are a very good centre bounce team and probably an average/below average general stoppage team. I think, generally, we set up our clearances primarily to not get scored against. We will often concede an extra number in the stoppage whilst our extra number is a fair way off the back of the stoppage. I think this is primarily because we don't mind conceding the territory as long as we don't concede scores, however this does usually result in 3 midfielders fighting for a clearance against 4 or 5. Also, I think Gawn's tap value is often overstated and we actually often look better when Jackson is rucking in stoppages around the ground, because he was able to even up the midfielder numbers around the ball whilst still allowing us to play an extra number off the back of the contest.

I would like to see our scores from stoppage vs scores conceded from stoppage. I'd say we're probably right near the top (although that's just an educated guess) of that. They're my thoughts but I'd be interested in others having a look themselves to see if they can dig down into it a bit more.

[Axis of Bob 11,836]

23 minutes ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

No issue with all you’ve posted. However, the issue is, he has had years to work on his shortcomings and by all reports I’ve heard, does not take onboard feedback. That is an area he needs to improve. Accepting that he is not perfect and work on areas of his game. Perhaps he is not coachable 

This is the exact opposite of everything anyone has ever told me about Viney. His B&F results over a long period across different coaches also strongly indicate that he is extremely coachable. 

There are legitimate faults in his game that can be rightly argued. He's not perfect. But this seems extremely unlikely to be one of those faults.

[Pipefitter 2,159]

People whinge about Goodwin playing players out of position yet we are talking about Viney becoming a forward?

[WERRIDEE 5,479]

8 minutes ago, deebug said:

I thought Fritsch had signed a few weeks back?

I don't think so I haven't seen anything?

[deebug 1,754]

2 minutes ago, WERRIDEE said:

I don't think so I haven't seen anything?

I could be wrong.

[Adam The God 30,266]

12 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

OK. Viney does multiple roles, and it varied depending on who is in the centre with him. Here is one against St Kilda, without Oliver. It's Viney, Brayshaw and Petracca.

This is set up for Petracca to have the who far side open to him. Viney blocks out Steele, Brayshaw gets inside Jones to block and Petracca beats Ross and gets to the far side with space. This is shown below:

Unfortunately the play breaks down because Brayshaw can't get inside Jones to block him out, so Jones gets the ball before it gets to Petracca. Viney, on the other hand, gets Steele out of position and is therefor a non-factor in the stoppage. This is shown below.

I show this as an example of how important these roles are in stoppages.

Here is another, with the play designed for Oliver. Oliver is to beat Shiel to the tap to the far side, with Viney blocking out Merrett to create space and Melksham playing purely defensively on Stringer (near side).

Essentially:

Merrett give Viney the slip early, which puts the play in jeopardy.

But Viney is able to recover to win body position to push Merrett into the contest, which keeps the play alive.

Oliver gets a little hold from Shiel, but because Viney has done his job so well on Merrett he's now clear and able to recover the ball to win the clearance.

Around the ground, Viney does the same on good players. Here the tap is for Oliver, with Crouch defending him. Brayshaw blocks the inside exit and AVB the defensive exit (we're kicking left). Viney is trusted one on one with their best player, Rory Laird.

Viney beats Laird for position and, when there's no effective tap from either Gawn or O'Reilly, Viney is able to win the clearance off the back of his good defensive body work. 

Now he's one with Petracca on Laird and Brayshaw on Crouch. It's a weird one because the play breaks down with a dodgy bounce. The tap ends up going forwards to no-man's land. But the important thing is the defence at the stoppage. 

Crouch edges Brayshaw off the ball and Petracca is lost with the clever Laird, but Viney recovers really quickly from the odd tap and gets himself between the ball and Keays, who isn't able to have any influence on the play. 

The first possession is won by Crouch and the clearance by Laird. It's a comfortable clearance in the end and Laird wanders through untouched. Keays is shut out quickly by Viney. Brayshaw and Petracca are non-entities once beaten, but Viney is able to do his role so consistently.

 

This happens over and over again. Viney is able to kill opposition clearances and also win his own off the back of this. He doesn't have the play designed for him as often as the attacking mids, but he can do it well if there is another defensive midfielder in the stoppage. For example, this stoppage involves Vandenberg. Viney is on Shiel (left) whilst AVB is blocking Merrett and Oliver is being defended. 

Shiel is the opposition's best midfielder, but Viney is so good at winning the body battle in stoppages that the play can confidently predict he wins body position for the surprise attack. Oliver's man only has eyes for him, so Oliver just has to stay out of the way of Viney, whilst AVB just blocks Merrett away. The tap goes to the far side, which is easy to do when the opposition has Stewart in the ruck.

It's an easy clearance in the end because of a terrible setup by Essendon. But the whole play depends on Viney winning body position, which he does. Usually he does it defensively for other players, but he can do it himself so reliably that sometimes they design plays for it. He has the quality to play both attacking and defensive.

The defensive midfielder is under-appreciated. Brayshaw has been given this responsibility at times, but he just doesn't do it to the level of Viney. You can see that, since Brayshaw went down late in the year, Melksham has been sent into the middle to play defensively. Oliver can do it at times, but he's a target man more often than not whilst Viney creates the space he can use. When Petracca is in there the ball is almost always going to him. Oliver is a rounded midfield but he doesn't play as a defensively minded stoppage midfielder like Viney. Viney is so important because he's so much better than the next best player in his role (Brayshaw, AVB and Melksham), and one of the best at it in the league. Plus, on top of that, he can be used offensively when required. There's a reason why a range of coaches love him every single year, but his style means that it doesn't always get its way on to the stats sheet.

Great post. I need to watch more closely.

I do think we evolved our set up as the year went on though. Viney was deployed more defensively as the season progressed, but this could be explained by Brayshaw and Petracca not being good enough as those defensive players.

As you know, I think we should have played Harmes in there as well. And we likely will in 2021.

In the last two rounds we experimented a bit more with stoppage set ups. At least that is my observation. You can see how wide we set up against Essendon. It gave our burst mids (Oliver and Petracca, and even Viney) room to burst onto the ball.

Edited September 28, 2020 by A F

[John Demonic 5,804]

Reposting an idea:

Just for arguements sake, Jack viney does want to go to Geelong. I wonder if we can trade Preuss and 47 to Geelong for an OVERS (Tampering?) pick like their #17, on the promise that we don't match the UFA Viney bid and force a trade, then we also get compo on JV in the first round too I assume.

 

Then we have 11 or 19 (JV compo?) 17* (Geel) and 21 (Haw).

Thoughts?

Edited September 28, 2020 by John Demonic

[Axis of Bob 11,836]

8 minutes ago, A F said:

I need to watch more closely.

It's really hard to pick up in real time unless you already know what's going to happen. I certainly wasn't able to do it and I previously thought exactly the same way as you did (basically all the way up until the B&F results came out). I just figured that Viney was the weak link and we probably would finction better without him. But then, once I actually looked closely, I realised that I was just completely wrong! I think you need to go over the footage a few times before you can see what's happening because there's so much going on in real time and your eyes get drawn to the footy.

I guess I needed to do something 'productive' during lockdown! ?

Edited September 28, 2020 by Axis of Bob

[Adam The God 30,266]

13 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

It's really hard to pick up in real time unless you already know what's going to happen. I certainly wasn't able to do it and I previously thought exactly the same way as you did (basically all the way up until the B&F results came out). I just figured that Viney was the weak link and we probably would finction better without him. But then, once I actually looked closely, I realised that I was just completely wrong! I think you need to go over the footage a few times before you can see what's happening because there's so much going on in real time and your eyes get drawn to the footy.

I guess I needed to do something 'productive' during lockdown! ?

I noticed you posted this at 2amish. Haha. So that's great commitment. 

I'd propose one other thing. If Viney has yet to re-sign, you have to wonder what that's about. Why would he look elsewhere or why would we lowball him if he was doing such a great job? Let's just say that he's had a really solid season, but his contractual stuff does raise some question marks. You'd expect him to have re-signed months ago.

Edited September 28, 2020 by A F

[Moonshadow 17,676]

9 minutes ago, John Demonic said:

Reposting an idea:

Just for arguements sake, Jack viney does want to go to Geelong. I wonder if we can trade Preuss and 47 to Geelong for an OVERS (Tampering?) pick like their #17, on the promise that we don't match the UFA Viney bid and force a trade, then we also get compo on JV in the first round too I assume.

 

Then we have 11 or 19 JV compo, 17* (Geel) and 21 (Haw)

Each trade has to be signed off by the AFL (Ken Woods?) as being fair and reasonable. This wouldn't pass the test, unfortunately, and i highly doubt Geelong would bend over that easily to suit our demands. They might well just turn their attention to Crouch, and we'd be left to kiss and make up with Jack. Why would we match and potentially force him to stay? We'd still likely get a 1st rounder for him.

But as I've said a few times, stranger things have happened!

[deanox 9,931]

30 minutes ago, John Demonic said:

Reposting an idea:

Just for arguements sake, Jack viney does want to go to Geelong. I wonder if we can trade Preuss and 47 to Geelong for an OVERS (Tampering?) pick like their #17, on the promise that we don't match the UFA Viney bid and force a trade, then we also get compo on JV in the first round too I assume.

 

Then we have 11 or 19 (JV compo?) 17* (Geel) and 21 (Haw).

Thoughts?

 

14 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Each trade has to be signed off by the AFL (Ken Woods?) as being fair and reasonable. This wouldn't pass the test, unfortunately, and i highly doubt Geelong would bend over that easily to suit our demands. They might well just turn their attention to Crouch, and we'd be left to kiss and make up with Jack. Why would we match and potentially force him to stay? We'd still likely get a 1st rounder for him.

But as I've said a few times, stranger things have happened!

On points this is the equivalent of Preuss for pick 27. 

That isn't unreasonable even if it may be a bit overs. You could justify it like that. 

[Adam The God 30,266]

1 hour ago, Axis of Bob said:

Yeah, just a few things. I don't have the figures but I'd suggest we are a very good centre bounce team and probably an average/below average general stoppage team. I think, generally, we set up our clearances primarily to not get scored against. We will often concede an extra number in the stoppage whilst our extra number is a fair way off the back of the stoppage. I think this is primarily because we don't mind conceding the territory as long as we don't concede scores, however this does usually result in 3 midfielders fighting for a clearance against 4 or 5. Also, I think Gawn's tap value is often overstated and we actually often look better when Jackson is rucking in stoppages around the ground, because he was able to even up the midfielder numbers around the ball whilst still allowing us to play an extra number off the back of the contest.

I would like to see our scores from stoppage vs scores conceded from stoppage. I'd say we're probably right near the top (although that's just an educated guess) of that. They're my thoughts but I'd be interested in others having a look themselves to see if they can dig down into it a bit more.

I'd suggest it's the opposite. Oliver's around the ground clearance numbers dwarf any other player in the league. We also often won the around the ground clearances, but lost the centre stoppages comfortably. 

I agree with your point RE: setting up our stoppages not to get scored against, but I'd argue this was mostly our aim from centre bounces, given the 6-6-6 and the inability to get natural numbers behind the ball. So a quick centre clearance is far more dangerous to the way we set up and zone off. 

[deanox 9,931]

18 minutes ago, A F said:

I noticed you posted this at 2amish. Haha. So that's great commitment. 

I'd propose one other thing. If Viney has yet to re-sign, you have to wonder what that's about. Why would he look elsewhere or why would we lowball him if he was doing such a great job? Let's just say that he's had a really solid season, but his contractual stuff does raise some question marks. You'd expect him to have re-signed months ago.

We have a massive list of unsigned players, and have had no action on then all year. I suspect that we have been waiting on 2021 list sizes and salary cap discussion before committing to anything.

If I was Jack, regardless of where I wanted to play I would test the open market. I might not take a pay rise, I might not even use it to bargain, but why give up free information at the negotiating table, or the chamce of a freak once in a lifetime contract that just might tempt you?

I'd suspect he either has a contract or a ballpark in front of him, but we are all on hold.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

@Axis of Bob's post is exceptional work.

Contrary to what some think, it isn't just a cover for "Viney is a flawless midfielder". As other stats AoB's posted show, Viney turns it over a lot.

But none of our midfielders are flawless. Some of Oliver's clanger kicks this year were just absolutely terrible. But we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater on Oliver because there are so many other things he does that are vital to our success.

This is the same argument for Viney. The difference is, unlike Oliver, most of us don't notice Viney's positive impact on the side live. So you just see the turnovers or the free kicks against for holding the ball. With Oliver, you see the clearances, quick handballs, etc. and you walk away from the game having seen how the positives outweigh the negatives.

AoB has given everyone the opportunity to reflect on their views on Viney and his role within the side. Some, like @A F, are genuinely taking that opportunity to reflect. Others are, clearly, not.

 

[John Demonic 5,804]

49 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Each trade has to be signed off by the AFL (Ken Woods?) as being fair and reasonable. This wouldn't pass the test, unfortunately, and i highly doubt Geelong would bend over that easily to suit our demands. They might well just turn their attention to Crouch, and we'd be left to kiss and make up with Jack. Why would we match and potentially force him to stay? We'd still likely get a 1st rounder for him.

But as I've said a few times, stranger things have happened!

Demands is a pretty strong word. I'm thinking of this as a more amicable handshake agreement between two clubs that are on good terms trades wise.

Geelong and Adelaide came to a similarly amicable arrangment over the Dangerfield trade when he was a RFA. Adel didn't force it and Geelong agreed to giving 9, 30 and Dean gore. I think danger was actually at the forefront of making sure Adel were well compensated.

Geelong would be happy only giving up 17 for Viney, Preuss and 47 imo as a combo and avoiding a matched bid trade, and we'd be happier getting 17 and AFL compo. Preuss is anywhere between a 20-50 depending how desperate a club is, so overvaluing him slightly for the sake getting us an extra 1st round seems win/win for both parties 

11, 17 and 21. That's port Adelaide levels of injecting 3 top class kids into a team over the current 16-22 ranked players marginally AFL/VFL level. Think Rozee Butters Dursma! 

Edited September 28, 2020 by John Demonic

[Half forward flank 1,022]

21 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

TBH it's not something I take a massive amount of interest in, so not an expert by any stretch. My guess would be he would be on about $600k PA with a new contract. To me, that would seem about right for his BnF placings, age and leadership history.

Jack stays at around $600,000 with a clear understanding midfield minutes are gold and reputations mean nothing from here on in. Need to get more creative and be a link player. If someone is prepared to pay significantly more than, say $600,000 good luck for Jack and family.

[Kent 2,910]

2 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

This is the exact opposite of everything anyone has ever told me about Viney. His B&F results over a long period across different coaches also strongly indicate that he is extremely coachable. 

There are legitimate faults in his game that can be rightly argued. He's not perfect. But this seems extremely unlikely to be one of those faults.

So why hasnt he addressed the glaring faults in his game??

[Nascent 9,216]

2 hours ago, deebug said:

If it has taken this long, then it seems more than likely Jack is gone.

 

Apart Petracca pre-covid and Pickett extending his base "rookie" contract I don't believe anyone else has re-signed throughout the year. Wouldn't surprise me if we await details from the AFL and AFLPA about list sizes and salary cap before making major re-signing announcements. 

Would love to get a contract in front of Rivers, Jackson, Petty, Fritsch, Sparrow and others but that's for another thread.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Nascent

[Diamond_Jim 12,592]

The issue here to me isn't Viney... he's a very useful player.

Rather the issue is can we get a similar result with a cheaper player (say Sparrow) and use the savings and the compensatory pick to improve the team

[Axis of Bob 11,836]

1 hour ago, A F said:

I'd suggest it's the opposite. Oliver's around the ground clearance numbers dwarf any other player in the league. We also often won the around the ground clearances, but lost the centre stoppages comfortably. 

Interesting. I thought I'd try to get some basic stats to see how we rank. Luckily it's in footywire's advanced stats page.

And you're right, we average fewer centre clearances per game than our opponents (-0.4 pg - 11th best) but are ahead in stoppage clearances (+1.8 - 4th best). 

It's very curious, and something I might have to have a think about. Why are we so much better around the grounds than we are in the centre? Especially given a dominant ruck and a bunch of quality inside mids?

[Kent 2,910]

1 minute ago, Axis of Bob said:

Interesting. I thought I'd try to get some basic stats to see how we rank. Luckily it's in footywire's advanced stats page.

And you're right, we average fewer centre clearances per game than our opponents (-0.4 pg - 11th best) but are ahead in stoppage clearances (+1.8 - 4th best). 

It's very curious, and something I might have to have a think about. Why are we so much better around the grounds than we are in the centre? Especially given a dominant ruck and a bunch of quality inside mids?

As you say very interesting

Could it be there is morre room and less structure at ball ups around the ground compared to Centre bounces?

[Moonshadow 17,676]

57 minutes ago, John Demonic said:

Demands is a pretty strong word. I'm thinking of this as a more amicable handshake agreement between two clubs that are on good terms trades wise.

Geelong and Adelaide came to a similarly amicable arrangment over the Dangerfield trade when he was a RFA. Adel didn't force it and Geelong agreed to giving 9, 30 and Dean gore. I think danger was actually at the forefront of making sure Adel were well compensated.

Geelong would be happy only giving up 17 for Viney, Preuss and 47 imo as a combo and avoiding a matched bid trade, and we'd be happier getting 17 and AFL compo. Preuss is anywhere between a 20-50 depending how desperate a club is, so overvaluing him slightly for the sake getting us an extra 1st round seems win/win for both parties 

11, 17 and 21. That's port Adelaide levels of injecting 3 top class kids into a team over the current 16-22 ranked players marginally AFL/VFL level. Think Rozee Butters Dursma! 

Not as happy as giving up nothing for Viney.

Realistically, I've come to the belief that Preuss will get us a late 2nd rounder at best, which will end up at around 40 by the time bids are matched

I'd bare my rrse in Bourke St if Geelong agreed to your suggestion and the AFL ok'd it