On the Couch - The Red Zone

[Half forward flank 1,022]

18 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

I really like your analysis @Pennant St Dee .

My question about Goodwin and co, is what does he genuinely see as our strengths, and what system is he trying to play, and how  does he see these strengths complimenting the style of play. 

Coaches are not THAT arrogant to pursue a plan when it's obvious that it doesn't work over a 2 game period. (besides there are a range of other staff that have input).

The stats that were pulled up last night, would have been available into last season for them...so aside from the optics of what we/they see on tv and at the ground, that data would have been front and centre for a long time.

So what is it that they all see, that perhaps we can't? And beyond commentary around his stubbornness, why is it persisted with?

I genuinely believe Goody has an issue with stubborness and order. It may be how he copes with life. He was a dogged,  determined and focused player. Not sure he was a good Captain.

[DubDee 26,670]

13 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

We go quarters without scoring

Skills have dropped right off since 2018

I know they are worse but how does this happen?  Talented footballers such as Salem, Oliver (by hand at least), Gus.  they've played more fooball, all they do is train. how can their skills get worse?  and their decision making.  so bizarre

[Steno 200]

Not to simplify too much...

We continue to play one extra around mid field stoppages... We win the majority.

We expect to run and spread.... Tomlinson and Langon bought in to do this...

We expect to handball clear... Clarry et al. Interesting that Brayshaw had 15+ more mins last weekend.

We expect to be able to play on every time... This is fatal.

We expect to be able to kick with accuracy... This is fatal.

We expect to see a forward... We don't select one. McDonald is near wing trying to provide the first option.

We look up and the extra around stoppages leaves a spare defender in our forward line.... A forward doesn't make it their responsibility to make it a contest... Or the forward is 6" shorter and gives away a free!

We win inside 50's... EVERY WEEK

We get killed on the rebound as we don't like to run both ways - and we have our best kick playing 2's because he didn't do this in his first real game (on limited time) in 4+years.

Ahh footy...

Edited July 7, 2020 by Steno

[Sir Why You Little 37,450]

21 minutes ago, DubDee said:

I know they are worse but how does this happen?  Talented footballers such as Salem, Oliver (by hand at least), Gus.  they've played more fooball, all they do is train. how can their skills get worse?  and their decision making.  so bizarre

Too much structure, not enough natural skills in my opinion 

 

[one_demon 826]

Both Gerard and Gary are saying the same thing in different ways, that it's a coaching issue. 

[Steno 200]

12 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Too much structure, not enough natural skills in my opinion 

 

I'm not sold on this. The trouble is the current structure appears to allow for you look up and see there is a spare defender. Which puts you under pressure to look for the second option. We need Miller, Holland or Pedersen: presuming this was meant to be Preuss. There are options, but they are all aren't playing!!

2nd or 3rd key forward has to have the responsibility for the loose defender if we are going to play an extra around the ball. You don't get 4 points for winning inside 50!!!! And this hasn't changed all year!

I would pick Brown this week and tell him that his only job is to stay inside 50 and bring the ball to ground. No if's no but's. Give away a free kick rather than an easy mark to unmanned defender. Why Brown? Last chance saloon!

Edited July 7, 2020 by Steno

[Dr. Gonzo 24,468]

1 hour ago, jumbo returns said:

Clayton Oliver is a star and may yet win a Brownlow

He COULD be a star

[Sir Why You Little 37,450]

1 minute ago, Steno said:

I'm not sold on this. The trouble is the current structure appears to allow for you look up and see there is a spare defender. Which puts you under pressure to look for the second option. We need Miller, Holland or Pedersen: presuming this was meant to be Preuss. There are options, but they are all aren't playing!!

2nd or 3rd key forward has to have the responsibility for the loose defender if we are going to play an extra around the ball. You don't get 4 points for winning inside 50!!!!

Goodwin does not have the list to Coach his style, it seems. 
It’s all chaos, it worked for about half a Season. 
Skills have dipped because of it

[frankie_d 1,471]

3 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

The most obviously damning thing that comes out of the analysis is the way our mids move the ball.

The footage of Viney at the first bounce in the fourth quarter picking it up, haring off, failing to see Hannan free at the 50, kicking it up high and being intercepted by Richmond, is as demonstrative of our problems as any 5 second piece of footage you can find.

Yet half this thread turns into another Frost/Lever/May fight. 

First game of 2019. I turn up at the G, ready for a good competitive year.

Max gets the hit out from the opening bounce. Jones gets the ball and bombs it forward. Intercept mark, and transition to the other end.

As the great man sings: "Same as it ever was"

You know, the content of these discussion is interesting and informative  --- but the reason for the discussions is a sad sad reality. We are failing again. All of us on DL can see it. Except for Northey,  Daniher (at least we were around the mark most of the time),  and 2018, we have been a failure of a club. I'm old enough to have been there in '64. Northey provided me with some years of pride, as did Daniher. For the remainder of the more than 50 years since then, we have been a failure.  We've had different reasons for failure, but we have failed. 

I'm deeply unimpressed with the Chairman of the Board and the corporate bullsh$t. How could a club make a movie like To Hell and Back, and then serve up this crap. Stop talking the talk - NEVER talk the talk. Just walk the walk.

I think the biggest loss is personnel is Peter Jackson. Hard as nails, smart and took no prisoners. Pert has been brought in by the board to get Club facilities sorted out - important, but right now, irrelevant. If we don't win, we are dead.

 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,468]

Pert and Bartlett need to have a media presence right now. Bartlett did SEN last week and good on him but it needs to be more frequent, especially now when the supporters are ready to burn the place down. They may think they are being smart by not making media appearances unless they have a reason to spruik something but it is extremely poor leadership. Supporters need encouragement and to know that the club is in good hands, they need to know that the President and CEO have options and will make moves if things don't turnaround.

Supporters are fuming at the moment and it will cost us another 5-10k memberships next year. Nevermind trying to raise another $700k this year

[Sir Why You Little 37,450]

10 minutes ago, frankie_d said:

First game of 2019. I turn up at the G, ready for a good competitive year.

Max gets the hit out from the opening bounce. Jones gets the ball and bombs it forward. Intercept mark, and transition to the other end.

As the great man sings: "Same as it ever was"

You know, the content of these discussion is interesting and informative  --- but the reason for the discussions is a sad sad reality. We are failing again. All of us on DL can see it. Except for Northey,  Daniher (at least we were around the mark most of the time),  and 2018, we have been a failure of a club. I'm old enough to have been there in '64. Northey provided me with some years of pride, as did Daniher. For the remainder of the more than 50 years since then, we have been a failure.  We've had different reasons for failure, but we have failed. 

I'm deeply unimpressed with the Chairman of the Board and the corporate bullsh$t. How could a club make a movie like To Hell and Back, and then serve up this crap. Stop talking the talk - NEVER talk the talk. Just walk the walk.

I think the biggest loss is personnel is Peter Jackson. Hard as nails, smart and took no prisoners. Pert has been brought in by the board to get Club facilities sorted out - important, but right now, irrelevant. If we don't win, we are dead.

 

Yep. Exactly why i said last year that “too Hell & Back” should not have been made. 
it was very well made. 
But we had no right to make it

Walk the Walk...it is all that counts

[Half forward flank 1,022]

15 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Pert and Bartlett need to have a media presence right now. Bartlett did SEN last week and good on him but it needs to be more frequent, especially now when the supporters are ready to burn the place down. They may think they are being smart by not making media appearances unless they have a reason to spruik something but it is extremely poor leadership. Supporters need encouragement and to know that the club is in good hands, they need to know that the President and CEO have options and will make moves if things don't turnaround.

Supporters are fuming at the moment and it will cost us another 5-10k memberships next year. Nevermind trying to raise another $700k this year

Having Bartlett in the Chair makes me ..... It is like the rich kid at school who switched teams to the Premiers each year, proudly wearing  his stoplessly clean and ironed jumper on sportsdays. 

[titan_uranus 25,252]

2 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Either that or play to your players strengths. I get the Fritsch move to the backline last season out of necessity, but Goody for the sake of his head coaching career needs to stop trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

Lever is a zoning off interceptor so play him as one and don't have Max floating back behind every ball as the intercept

Harmes has been very damaging through the middle play him there and make Viney your principal tagger. Play Gawn, Harmes, Trac, Brayshaw as your starting centreline. Rotate Clarrie through there whilst also consider sending him forward to play Vanders role.

Play forwards who will lead hard up the ground and free up space inside forward 50 to create channels for the others to lead into and if they want to play a loose defender sitting in the hole don't play on hit little 20m passes on the 45 to work into space until someone finds space.

It's up to him and the players as a collective to work this out

Have to agree with all this.

The use of shorter kicks on the 45 stands out as a piece of the puzzle we're missing. I recall Melksham being useful in 2018 at opening up the ground through 45-degree kicks from half-back/wing into the middle and half-forward, opening space up and getting through and around defensive zones. There's been very little of that since 2018.

53 minutes ago, Steno said:

Not to simplify too much...

We continue to play one extra around mid field stoppages... We win the majority.

We expect to run and spread.... Tomlinson and Langon bought in to do this...

We expect to handball clear... Clarry et al. Interesting that Brayshaw had 15+ more mins last weekend.

We expect to be able to play on every time... This is fatal.

We expect to be able to kick with accuracy... This is fatal.

We expect to see a forward... We don't select one. McDonald is near wing trying to provide the first option.

We look up and the extra around stoppages leaves a spare defender in our forward line.... A forward doesn't make it their responsibility to make it a contest... Or the forward is 6" shorter and gives away a free!

We win inside 50's... EVERY WEEK

We get killed on the rebound as we don't like to run both ways - and we have our best kick playing 2's because he didn't do this in his first real game (on limited time) in 4+years.

Ahh footy...

I know we spent parts of 2019 sending an extra man up to stoppages, and in 2018 we would also regularly drop a man behind the play. Both of those tactics routinely left us with an opposition spare man in defence.

Are we sure we're doing the same this year? It feels like our opponents have a loose defender but is that a byproduct of us sending an extra up to the stoppages?

I would agree with you, though, that our lack of key forwards is hurting us in these respects. TMac comes up to the wing to get the ball, doesn't leave us with anyone behind him who can make a contest in the air.

[Grimes Times 1,278]

16 hours ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

healy: "it's not the effort, it's the execution"

"win the ball, don't create damage"

lyon: "i watch this side every single week - they can't kick"

gerard healy reckons we desperately need weed to step up; brown says he needs someone to work with him to develop...justin plapp is meant to have that job hahahahahaha

two main gfx:

and

 

You would  expect players ratings to drop of with 20% less game time??

[Ouch! 2,276]

8 minutes ago, Grimes Times said:

You would  expect players ratings to drop of with 20% less game time??

No you wouldn't .... because ALL players across the comp are playing 20% less, so it's all relative to each other.... statistically shouldn't make an impact.

[Ouch! 2,276]

45 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Are we sure we're doing the same this year? It feels like our opponents have a loose defender but is that a byproduct of us sending an extra up to the stoppages?

I would agree with you, though, that our lack of key forwards is hurting us in these respects. TMac comes up to the wing to get the ball, doesn't leave us with anyone behind him who can make a contest in the air.

This begs the question though.... why is TMac coming so far up the ground?

We have enough i50s to allow him to stay our key forward, ... we have wings in Langdon and Tomlinson for this purpose.  Is TMac playing the right role by doing this?

[Steno 200]

54 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Are we sure we're doing the same this year? It feels like our opponents have a loose defender but is that a byproduct of us sending an extra up to the stoppages?

Absolutely 110% happening this year. Fox Footy showed down the ground angle multiple times last match with Houli free. Macdonald and Fritsch were both socially distancing from him..... across the top of the 50 arc. Hannan in three examples was the only forward inside 50. 

If I could work out how to post screen shots I would. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Steno

[Little Richard 6,265]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

He COULD be a star

He WAS a genuine star in 2018, is currently languishing, but COULD be a star once more.

[Grimes Times 1,278]

29 minutes ago, Ouch! said:

No you wouldn't .... because ALL players across the comp are playing 20% less, so it's all relative to each other.... statistically shouldn't make an impact.

except it is being used against 2018 . im only referring to the first graphic.

[Grr-owl 1,258]

14 minutes ago, Ouch! said:

This begs the question though.... why is TMac coming so far up the ground?

We have enough i50s to allow him to stay our key forward, ... we have wings in Langdon and Tomlinson for this purpose.  Is TMac playing the right role by doing this?

Yeah, I think he is. Just we need another tall closer to goal. Has to be Weid. Get him in the team and tell him it's now or never. It's time to step up.

[Ouch! 2,276]

13 minutes ago, Grimes Times said:

except it is being used against 2018 . im only referring to the first graphic.

The first graphic which is the player ratings is showing how they are performing in 19-20 compared to 2018, which we both agree on But that is all still relative, as it is comparing players to other players in the competition, this rating is relative to all of the other players in the AFL It's not individual stats as an absolute. 

If we were saying that the number of kicks per game or total handballs, then you would be correct, what the graphic is saying is that relative to other players in the AFL, Fritsch has had a slide of 78% player points relative to other players. 

 

[Ouch! 2,276]

18 minutes ago, Grr-owl said:

Yeah, I think he is. Just we need another tall closer to goal. Has to be Weid. Get him in the team and tell him it's now or never. It's time to step up.

Thats the thing though.... if TMac is our key forward then he should not be seeking the ball so far out given that we don't have another forward..... the fact that we *should* put another one in the team doesn't come into it. 

Team balance and selection of another tall is probably something that most agree needs to occur, which might allow TMac to roam. I don't think he is reading the play that well at the moment, and is trying to hunt the ball rather than create structure in the forward 50 which is what he needs to be doing as the sole key forward. Players like Melk, Fritsch and Hannan are mid sized forwards they are not there to bring the ball to ground as a KPP

Edited July 7, 2020 by Ouch!

[Spargonicus 539]

17 hours ago, At the break of Gawn said:

I blame the turn overs. The mids run forward, as they should when your team mate has ball in hand, then someone does an inexplicable turn over that catches everyone unawares and the other team streams forward and our defenders have no assistance.

Again, this is attributed to the fast paced style that Goody demands the team to play which has a high risk of turn overs. It’s a high risk game plan and we simply do not have the skills to handle it. Goody needs to drop it ASAP.

I agree, but when we're pulling it off we do look great. Maybe an adjustment? To have better awareness of when to go hard/play on, and when to take a slightly more conservative option?

[PaulRB 6,435]

17 hours ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

healy: "it's not the effort, it's the execution"

"win the ball, don't create damage"

lyon: "i watch this side every single week - they can't kick"

gerard healy reckons we desperately need weed to step up; brown says he needs someone to work with him to develop...justin plapp is meant to have that job hahahahahaha

two main gfx:

and

 

Of the 26 games in 2019-20 Played for the above crew

• 6 of the 15 had significant injury layoffs
• Of the players with the largest drop off over the period the top 7 are forwards and backs (moreso if you add Hannan and May)
• Our midfield was largely unscathed during this period in terms of injury layoffs and lost games
• Our midfields were trying to connect with forward and backlines that were unsettled and often without our best players

Games played by player (2019-2020)

• FRitz - 26 of 26
• Melky - 16 of 26 (injured for 10 games in 2019)
• Salem - 24 of 26
• TMac - 19 of 26 (injured for 7 games in 2019)
• Jetta - 11 of 26 (injured for 15 games in 2019, omitted in 2020)
• Lever - 12 of 26 (injured for 14 games in 2019)
• Hunt - 24 of 26
• Gawn - 25 of 26
• Oliver - 26 of 26
• Hannan - 10 of 26 (injured for 16 games in 2019)
• Brayshaw - 26 of 26
• Harmes - 26 of 26
• Viney - 25 of 26
• May - 12 of 26 (injured for 14 games in 2019)
• Hibbard - 22 of 26 

[jnrmac 20,364]

4 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Agreed. The other thing about the see ball get ball types is they don't spread once we do win the footy - for all the praise we get for being a good contested side our structure around the stoppages is terrible. That's why we often handball to someone under the pump etc because they are running alongside the ball carrier instead of moving out 5 meytes to stretch the opposition defence around the contest. I think it was Good Coast who did this really well a few times on the weekend - they have players ready to go 5-10 metres off where the player who wins the ball is standing and they move it quickly with 2 or 3 handballs to get the kicker into space. Our guys handball 2 or 3 times within a phonebox and then bang it on the boot without looking because the kicker is still under pressure to get rid of the footy. This comes with composure and not manic "attack the footy" mentality.

Under-rated post