POSTGAME: Rd 04 vs Geelong

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

17 minutes ago, old dee said:

The only proof is the score board.  It don’t look flash and we are terrible to watch

Did you watch all the games this week.?

IF we were that bad, we would have been belted by 10 goals surely.?

Other sides are struggling to score against the press/flood.   And we've got kids playing in their first 3 games.

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

1 hour ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

The game plan is all about developing players;  so some are out of best positions so others can develop. see brayshaw, harmes etc.

If we want to develop Rivers into the team and Pickett into the team then some others have to suffer some change. 

 

Petracca into the Mids,  means one other goes out to another spot. No.?    Is this not a positive, Petracca's fitness, and form.?

Jones is out so other kids are in. what a huge sacrifice for our future.

 

See... we are not selecting for this years Flag. because we are not good enough to be it.  Where do Rivers and Pickett develop when there isn't a decent 2nd tier competition for them. Where do Brown,  Weide, Sparrow, and others develop properly.

 

We are selecting sides now to develop young players,  so we can become a power club for the next 5 - 7 Yrs.  Which is what we need to do

 

[John Crow Batty 8,860]

Chris Scott embarrassed at the way they played to win. But they did what they had to do to beat us. Geelong are crap too but they know there is no nuance in our strategy and all that is required to beat us is a blunt instrument. 

[The Swimming Dee 1,904]

1 hour ago, BrisbaneDemon said:

Here’s a radical thought:

I honestly don’t know why he doesn’t play all 3, tmac, Weid, Brown, Kozzie, Fritter, Melksham with Hannam/Hunt on the bench, with Trac and Brayshaw rotating throwing there with Hannan/melk in the guts.

 If we’re going to continue to bomb it in, give the big boys a chance, just instruct them to not all jump at the same ball.

we cannot continue to do the exact same thing every week.

Melksham will be lucky to get a game next week. I thought he was horrible yesterday...always going for the easy option

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

1 hour ago, old dee said:

Not sure why you are defending him MFM.

He keeps doing the same things every week with the same result this has been going for on 3 years. 

How do you know he's not  doing the best game plan wen the players are still learning trying to implement it.

And we take out our most experienced,  to allow kids to play.

And Jetta playing on 2Mtr tall players. before demotion.

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

27 minutes ago, venemy53 said:

I feel like the Dees can be outcoached easily, because if they're not on a roll and pulling off the higher risk plays down the corridor, their fundamentals just aren't at the level of their opponents. I mean it was pretty impressive (albeit boring) seeing Geelong play keepings off. There is no way we could adapt our gamestyle to that kind of strategy. Also, I think it's time to stick with a chosen 'best 22' and give them more time together, especially in this interrupted season. TMac is borderline gone for mine...almost clunked a few marks, which may have got him going, but he's just too lacking in confidence too much of the time. Maybe time to have faith in Weid for a few games? It's a tough one...

We saw yesterday in that 2nd Qtr what we can do when we click. 

Its what we're building towards, but under severe pressure, naturally it falters, because all players are still learning the style and also many are in their first matches,  and not even AFL hardened.

 

Our club/team/list is in transition, atmo

We are shedding the old skin of past Era since 2008/10 period, which carries a lot of scarring.

And our new breed is being put into the spotlight,  that were not involved in those times.

 

Hang in there because we are leaving the ways/attitudes of the !990's and 2000's,  behind us.

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

25 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

"Take it from me" "winning is the 2nd priority"

Ha ha

To growth and learning to play the right way,  to win.

 

You cannot win a race when you can't even stand yet.  The difference Jnr,  is learning and growth.  Our development.

So yes Winning is second,  to learning, growth, and teamwork.

[Cards13 9,117]

43 minutes ago, venemy53 said:

I feel like the Dees can be outcoached easily, because if they're not on a roll and pulling off the higher risk plays down the corridor, their fundamentals just aren't at the level of their opponents. I mean it was pretty impressive (albeit boring) seeing Geelong play keepings off. There is no way we could adapt our gamestyle to that kind of strategy. Also, I think it's time to stick with a chosen 'best 22' and give them more time together, especially in this interrupted season. TMac is borderline gone for mine...almost clunked a few marks, which may have got him going, but he's just too lacking in confidence too much of the time. Maybe time to have faith in Weid for a few games? It's a tough one...

Welcome onboard! Don't mind the loonies, I'm sure you'll fit right in!

[jnrmac 20,053]

18 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

Player	Score	Rank
Angus Brayshaw	3.300	1
Max Gawn #	3.225	2
Clayton Oliver	2.875	3
James Harmes	2.825	4
Ed Langdon	2.425	5
Adam Tomlinson	2.225	6
Jack Viney	2.200	7
Michael Hibberd	2.150	8
Mitchell Hannan	1.725	9
Jake Lever	1.700	10
Christian Petracca	1.675	11
Steven May	1.525	12
Joel Smith	1.525	13
Tom McDonald	1.425	14
Christian Salem	1.275	15
Aaron Vandenberg	1.025	16
Jay Lockhart	1.000	17
Bayley Fritsch	0.975	18
Kysaiah Pickett	0.950	19
Jayden Hunt	0.850	20
Trent Rivers	0.500	21
Jake Melksham	-0.325	22
Team Score	37.050
Top 6	16.875
Bottom 6	3.950
# Hit outs to advantage not accounted for

Ok not exactly a game for the ages and certainly as poor an effort as i've seen from this club, aside from a few individual efforts, for some time.  That team score!   Let's not try and chocolate coat this.  Even after accounting for 20% less game time vs 2019, the team's performance today was.....wait for it.... statistically 17.8% worse than the drivel we produced in 2019.  The 2019 season average team score was 59.623.  Compare that to 2018 which was 69.528  This team performance was 26.7% below that season's average (yes accounting for the 20% less game time in 2020)!

Individually, only two players scored above 3.  The only game that's come close to that was our Rnd 21 match vs the Pies last season where we only had three players score above 3.  The worst result since i started tallying these stats in 2018.

A couple of other horrors....

AFL DE% averages roughly 73%.  We were at 62% for the match.

The bottom 5 disposers of the ball (accuracy wise).....

Melksham @ 27.3% with only 3 effectives

Lockhart @ 37.5% with 3

Hunt @ 40% with 2.  Fritsch ditto.

Tracc @ 50% with 9.

The top 5 most accurate disposers...

Langdon @ 87.5% with 14 effectives.

Smith @ 83.3% with 5

Hibb @ 81.8% with 9

Harmes @ 77.8 with 14 (i must have been watching a different player....didn't see half of those and thought he was average at best!)

Gawn @ 76.50 with 13.  Not bad from the big fella.

Not one player racked up more than 1 contested mark for the entire match!

Taken from another thread, this post is a total indictment on the playing and coaching group.

[The Chazz 4,077]

21 hours ago, waynewussell said:

Quite a few 'experts' here tipped an easy Cats victory. It went down to the line. WE were close to winning. Are those experts prepared to acknowledge that they underestimated our team?

I was one of the 'experts' that tipped an easy win for Geelong.  I predicted Hawkins would kick 5, he kicked 1.3.  Was adamant that we needed a 2nd tall (I was calling for that to be Brown) to force them to play Taylor (meaning they would've gone in with one less half back runner, which is where we they slaughtered us with uncontested marks).

I knew we would match-up well against them, and that if we could play 4 quarters, we'd beat them.

17 hours ago, Buzzy said:

Played one game in 18 months and got absolutely crucified by the plebs on here last week.  Unbelievable.

Solid today. ?

Smith provided one of the 3 moments that I think "officially" cost us the game.  When he didn't take that ball over the boundary, deep in their pocket, it showed a complete lack of understanding of playing defence, which they ended up kicking a goal directly from that decision.  He's not a kid, I can't see how we can continue to let him develop in the seniors when he is clearly not AFL standard.

For the record, the other two moments were Fritsch dropping that chest mark, and the free kick paid against May, think it was a marking infringement, in the 3rd quarter (was around 80m out from our goals), which they also kicked a goal directly from that.  It wasn't a free kick.

The Tom Mc non-free was the right decision, just a strong marking contest.

[Bay Riffin 1,466]

On 6/28/2020 at 5:51 PM, Kiss of Death said:

All I see in my head is Fritsch dropping a chest mark, 20m out dead in front, with no cats within 4M of him, in the first half.

watch it again, a cats player gets in contact on his arm to dislodge the ball.

[dpositive 1,663]

On 6/28/2020 at 9:26 PM, DeeSpencer said:

Front half scoring continues to be the basis of good football. Of course we have to be better with our forward entries in order to score more and to lock it in more but that doesn't mean we should go slower once we're in attacking position, just shorter, more diagonally and laterally and smarter.

There's been a lot of changes to our defensive system. The deeper defenders - May, Smith and today Hibberd and always looking to have one of them peel back and keep a number behind play. We didn't give up an easy over the back goal at all today if I remember correctly.

The problem today was partly forward entries, but mostly the desire of our midfield to peel back and defend instead of to work with the forwards and keep a well structured zone. We just allowed too many kick and marks. Our forwards and mids get lazy and get out of position. Fortunately today it was mostly mentally lazy and getting caught dropping too far back or not covering the switch rather than physically not chasing at all so it became Geelong kick to kick largely without getting anywhere. 

The appalling fundamentals are a problem, the lack of forwards who can hold a grab is an issue. The overall defensive and attacking structure today wasn't wrong.

Lots of good observations on this thread. There were many points which show we have the personnel and the skill.

We also display some mind boggling poor decision making  and poor skill errors. There seems to be still a real lack of confidence, I continue to put this down to reaction to umpiring consistency.

Has the coach, the club ever consulted the umpires to ask what we do wrong when we tackle, (we rarely get a free kick for incorrect disposal), or when tackled ( we often get caught for incorrect disposal. We never get high tackles even when opponent is lying on the ground with arm around neck as the umpire picks up the ball.

I noted the Clarkson raised the fact there were 69 tackles without any reward from umpires so it may not be just us. The footage showed only North V Hawks. A highlight reel of our game would show mainly demon tackles as the Cats at least got a few so the law does still exist.

Had to respond to this as reference to zone was another issue that had me screaming at the screen. It used to be pretty simple, when you have the ball run to space,, when they have the ball run to a man. The Cats had so much time to chip it around and deliver accurately coz they were able to cause a separation. They run around into space to create a mis match and when it happens just exploit that. 

Guthrie seemed to have no one on him most game and I suspect it might have been Clarrie who just seems to float around alone in between his great bursts of activity.

I have stated in the past that results belong to the coach. I continue with this claim. I blame the coach for not using the squad adequately, not ensuring skills under intensity are improved and not adjusting strategies quickly and effectively enough.

We are not winning, It is many things but it's the coaches job and his responsibility. He must change something coz what's going now is not working for a full game. We are not winning that's what it's about.

[old dee 23,704]

How come Gawn does nothing around the ground he has developed into a tap ruckman and very little else.

Where have the forward line marks gone?

Used to drift into the backline and take defensive Marks not now.

Now his ruckwork is so predictable the other teams just rove to him.

Is this by design from the FD?

[Tarax Club 3,859]

On 6/28/2020 at 8:34 PM, Farmer said:

 

Yes it definitely leaked like a sieve? Geelong who played in last year’s prelim, had 12 scoring shots.  Some leak!

Pondered that one awhile! Given the  lack of oxygen for forwards, in a dour gone to earth struggle. The 'leaks' in the context of the game were monumental 'F' for Freddy Ups. First quarter opposition player No. 28 marking virtually unopposed... Third quarter No. 17 Ratugolea initially foot passes ball and than umpire insists he has a goal kick, seconds meanwhile tick by,  the goal mouth still remains open... Later in game?  No. 35 Dangerfield marks from a well directed pass, appears to set up goal kick but passes to No. 22 Duncan who marks unopposed directly in front of goal, inside the arc, in a paddock.

Accountability, Composure and leadership? Who left the gate open?

Edited June 30, 2020 by Tarax Club
brevity

[DeeSpencer 25,398]

1 hour ago, old dee said:

How come Gawn does nothing around the ground he has developed into a tap ruckman and very little else.

Where have the forward line marks gone?

Used to drift into the backline and take defensive Marks not now.

Now his ruckwork is so predictable the other teams just rove to him.

Is this by design from the FD?

Did you miss his game against Carlton where he was everywhere? 

17 touches against the Cats in a shortened game is still a really good effort and he was heavily involved late. 

[old dee 23,704]

1 minute ago, DeeSpencer said:

Did you miss his game against Carlton where he was everywhere? 

17 touches against the Cats in a shortened game is still a really good effort and he was heavily involved late. 

But he is not having the impact of previous years. And his ruck work is so predictable everyone knows what he is going to do.

[Nasher 33,607]

On 6/28/2020 at 6:51 PM, Wiseblood said:

@titan_uranus or @Nasher- thoughts on the game?

I ask you two as I didn't see a single second of the game and I trust you both to give a decent summary of the game that isn't run only on emotion. 

Cheers. 

Sorry mate, my new policy is not to log on for a few days after a loss. I know people think I’m a cheerleader but emotions swamp me when we lose. Attempting to reason calms me down a lot, but it’s impossible when everyone here has clearly let their emotions trump all reason. As I’m getting older my tolerance for adults throwing tantrums has depleted.

It was a horrible game, but we bloody nearly snaffled it. The game was high intensity but both teams looked to be running on the spot. If we’d have won it would be one you’d bank and never speak of again. 
 

Was very pleased with the game of Lever, May and Pickett, and Hibberd looked like the 2018 version. Looked in the last quarter like he was trying to carry the team over the line. Good signs I thought.

[Lucifers Hero 39,413]

Anyone listen to May's interview?

I don't know how to post the video but it is in this article.  may-open-to-hub-move

Several comments interested me (around the 4 minute mark):

• Not adjusting to changes other teams make during games
• We prepared for Geelong but they changed their tactics.

That speaks to inflexibility, lack of anticipation and lack of tactical nouse by both players and coaches. 

He was asked an (inaudible) question  but given May's response it must have been about his on-field behaviour towards team mates.  He said he was working on it and was a lot better.  There was a case during the Geelong game where players were arguing and he had to step in.  Did anyone notice that during the game?

I liked the interview.  He was honest and didn't dodge questions.  No platitudes and did not use the word 'learnings. 

[binman 42,499]

11 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Anyone listen to May's interview?

I don't know how to post the video but it is in this article.  may-open-to-hub-move

Several comments interested me (around the 4 minute mark):

• Not adjusting to changes other teams make during games
• We prepared for Geelong but they changed their tactics.

That speaks to inflexibility, lack of anticipation and lack of tactical nouse by both players and coaches. 

He was asked an (inaudible) question  but given May's response it must have been about his on-field behaviour towards team mates.  He said he was working on it and was a lot better.  There was a case during the Geelong game where players were arguing and he had to step in.  Did anyone notice that during the game?

I liked the interview.  He was honest and didn't dodge questions.  No platitudes and did not use the word 'learnings. 

I have a lot of time for May and really like his interviews. He is refreshingly honest and as you say answers the questions he is asked.

I totally agree with your comment about tactical nous, particularly as it applies so the coaches. I'm a Goodwin fan but against the blues his lack of tactical response to arrest their momentum was poor as was the lack of a tactical response in the Cast game.

As i posted earlier in this thread (and i think in the game thread) we totally telegraphed how we wanted to play with our selections (and in pre match pressers) ie we wanted to play fast and trap it inside 50.

So what did Scott do? Deny us the ball and inside 50s by playing keeping offs and by playing so slowly negating our desired game plan. He said as much in his post game presser. Simples.

Mays comments suggest not but surely the coaching unit should have planned for this eventuality?

Perhaps they did but either were happy to have low scoring game thinking we would get on top (which to be fair we nearly did) or the the players did not respond to instructions.

On the former being happy for a low scoring game is hardly in line with his promise of fast attacking brand of football dees fan would enjoy. But more importantly why would they be happy to have the game played totally played on the Cat's terms? Surely we want to play it on ours, how we had trained to play?

On the latter Goodwin noted post game that one of the 'learnings' was not to allow so may non contested marks. I mean, really?

Surely they did not need to learn that post game and both the coaches and players should have responded after the quarter time break by pushing up and denying them easy kicks and marks.

Doing so would have opened us up to counter attacks but would have forced the game to be more offensive and therefore more on our terms and in line with how we trained and selected. 

And supposedly one of the 'learnings' from the blues game (according to May coincidentally) was that we played not to lose after quarter time rather then to win. Well why didn't we apply that learning and attack them, take risks - play to win - rather then sit back and let them control the tempo of the game and keep close to them with hope of sneaking what would have been an undeserved win.

I tipped the dees coming into that match (after having tipping correctly for all the previous seven games in the round and being in with chance of a healthy pick 9 jackpot in my tipping comp) as i thought we would twin. And win well. We should have. And i believe would have if Goodwin had responded to Scott's go slow palaver.

[jnrmac 20,053]

On 7/2/2020 at 12:55 PM, Lucifer's Hero said:

Anyone listen to May's interview?

I don't know how to post the video but it is in this article.  may-open-to-hub-move

Several comments interested me (around the 4 minute mark):

• Not adjusting to changes other teams make during games
• We prepared for Geelong but they changed their tactics.

That speaks to inflexibility, lack of anticipation and lack of tactical nouse by both players and coaches. 

He was asked an (inaudible) question  but given May's response it must have been about his on-field behaviour towards team mates.  He said he was working on it and was a lot better.  There was a case during the Geelong game where players were arguing and he had to step in.  Did anyone notice that during the game?

I liked the interview.  He was honest and didn't dodge questions.  No platitudes and did not use the word 'learnings. 

This appears to be the problem we have been having for a long time. Many here can see it. I don't know if its stubborness or stupidity but it aint good.

It reminds me of the rubbish posted here a few years ago that game plans take 3 years to develop. Brisbane's didn't, Western Bulldogs didn't. Plenty others dont. Its a cop out.

I really believe that Goodwin doesn't have flexibility and ignores the obvious. His comments on the weekend after the game made me want to throw up:

1. "we couldn't get the ball off them" Seriously. I just throw my hands up in the air, this has been going on for years. You plan for it. Like you should plan for 2 mins to go and 4 pts down. PICK UP THE OPPOSITION PLAYERS WHEN THEY HAVE THE BALL FFS. Its not that hard. Don't allow them to chip the ball around. And yes the leadership on the ground should pick that up but ultimately its a failure of coaching.

But Goodwin seems fixated on playing zones which don't work. I think he's stupid actually. When you look at his behaviour with gambling, Stephen Dank and the drug issue and his inflexibility I can come to no other conclusion.

2. "next time a team tries to hold the ball against us we will be better prepared". Seriously, he should resign in shame over that comment.

This is he difference between a Clarkson coached side and ours. I remember a few years back when we were 98pts down against the Hawks with 2mins to go and the hawks were flooding back trying to not let us score. I thought at the time he was just being narky and wanted to win by over 100pts but was later told by a Director of Hawthorn that they were practicing the defending with 2mins to go plan. 

That's what a good coach does. 

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

On 6/30/2020 at 9:33 AM, old dee said:

How come Gawn does nothing around the ground he has developed into a tap ruckman and very little else.

Where have the forward line marks gone?

Used to drift into the backline and take defensive Marks not now.

Now his ruckwork is so predictable the other teams just rove to him.

Is this by design from the FD?

He's not a very good pack mark, imo.

He gets moved off balance fairly easily, and doesn't get much jump at it.  This is the problem of kicking to large packs.  Weide struggles in them as well.  Finding a way thru

 

Clark Keating would just crash thru them to get the ball,  with total strength and aggression.  If he failed to get to the ball he would have hurt someone,  who would think thrice next time.

This in part is why I want a tall power-house forward;  heavy build like PWright.  Who by the way, doesn't seem to be getting much of a go.

Edited July 3, 2020 by MyFavouriteMartian