POSTGAME: Rd 02 vs Carlton

[old dee 23,013]

10 minutes ago, Hogan2014 said:

McDonald played his best at FF & not sure why he’s not playing there??? Looks completely lost

Jetta was playing on a forward who was twice his height???? 
 

 

That makes him the tallest player in the AFL.

[dazzledavey36 49,394]

3 hours ago, Jaded said:

Yep. When your opponent is a foot taller than you, how else are you expected to defend? 

That match up was beyond stupid. 

Troy Chaplin special for ya.. ?‍♂️

How he still has a role within this club is beyond me.

[old dee 23,013]

1 minute ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Troy Chaplin special for ya.. ?‍♂️

How he still has a role within this club is beyond me.

The majority of our problem eminate from the FD.

[TheKozzieExperience 258]

https://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/706074/aflca-votes-petracca-s-perfect-10

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

5 hours ago, Jaded said:

Yep. When your opponent is a foot taller than you, how else are you expected to defend? 

That match up was beyond stupid. 

Intercept for sure, was meant to happen.  I think should have covered Nev.

[Pates 9,537]

1 hour ago, TheKozzieExperience said:

https://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/706074/aflca-votes-petracca-s-perfect-10

Interesting Salem got a vote, surely must be from Goodwin. Clearly he did something we didn't notice.

Well done to Trac, well deserved. This will be a year he has complete games, this one wasn't it but that first quarter was a blinder.

[Lou C. Fur 943]

On 6/13/2020 at 10:35 PM, binman said:

Vitriol? WTF?

 I had a few too many on Saturday and on rereading regret my post. I apologise BM.

[Lou C. Fur 943]

On 6/13/2020 at 10:37 PM, DemonOX said:

The games on Sunday champ.  

 I had a few too many on Saturday and on rereading regret my post. I apologise DOX

[Lou C. Fur 943]

On 6/13/2020 at 10:38 PM, Farmer said:

What a bloody silly post! His post was quite constructive.

 I had a few too many on Saturday and on rereading regret my post. I agree with you Farmer and I apologise.

[Lou C. Fur 943]

On 6/13/2020 at 10:45 PM, ding said:

Awesome a new [censored].... just what we need.

 I deserve that. I had a few too many on Saturday and on rereading regret my post. I apologise Ding.

[Lou C. Fur 943]

On 6/13/2020 at 11:21 PM, Scoop Junior said:

Vitriol? Maybe look up this word in the dictionary because clearly you have no idea what it means.

Mine was a discussion of some areas where we did well and things we were poor at and, given the performance wasn't a great one, there were probably a few more things to discuss on what we did poorly. It was not in any way shape or form vitriolic and compared to what we see on Demonland it was fairly tame!

Thanks also for letting me know the next game. I've only been going to the footy since I was 3 and in those 34 years since have hardly missed a game in Victoria (and then only if I was away overseas). I was there till the end at Kardinia Park when we lost by 186 and the same at the G when the Dons beat us by 146. I went down to Geelong by myself in one of our worst years ever in 2013 and stood in the rain all game to watch us kick 4 goals and lose by 11 goals. And I was there as a 5-year-old at the prelim in 87.

So yeah I know where the next game is. Unlike you I know it's on SUNDAY not Saturday. I also know where we played in Round 3 20 years ago because when you care about something so much you tend to remember it.

I hope we beat Essendon too. And I also hope your contribution on the post-game thread is a step up from your embarrassing effort above.

 I had a few too many on Saturday and on rereading regret my post. I apologise SJ.

[John Demonic 4,914]

3 minutes ago, AC/DeeC said:

 I had a few too many on Saturday and on rereading regret my post. I apologise SJ.

You must've passed out at quarter time  too ?

[Binmans PA 26,513]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but Troy Chaplin, the Defensive coach... just wow. How can players still be leaping for the same ball? Rivers seemed to understand when to stay down and where to guard space, but Joel Smith after how ever many years he's been on the list, still hasn't worked it out. Smith, Chaplin and Goodwin really have to take some responsibility for this decision making. It shouldn't be happening with a player in his 3rd or 4th or whatever it is, season. 

Structurally though, the first half was solid from a defensive POV, but we still fail to do the basics well. Worried what Essendon will do next week even though they're a pretty ordinary team themselves.

What's frustrating is that there are many, many average teams in the competition. If only we got anywhere near our 2018 form, we'd easily be top 4 or 6.

[Beetle 4,323]

1 hour ago, AC/DeeC said:

 I had a few too many on Saturday and on rereading regret my post. I apologise BM.

I had a few too many Saturday night and regret everything that happened after the 5 minute mark of the second quarter. I apologise to everyone, even though I didn’t post.

[In Harmes Way 7,613]

9 hours ago, A F said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned but Troy Chaplin, the Defensive coach... just wow. How can players still be leaping for the same ball? Rivers seemed to understand when to stay down and where to guard space, but Joel Smith after how ever many years he's been on the list, still hasn't worked it out. Smith, Chaplin and Goodwin really have to take some responsibility for this decision making. It shouldn't be happening with a player in his 3rd or 4th or whatever it is, season. 

Structurally though, the first half was solid from a defensive POV, but we still fail to do the basics well. Worried what Essendon will do next week even though they're a pretty ordinary team themselves.

What's frustrating is that there are many, many average teams in the competition. If only we got anywhere near our 2018 form, we'd easily be top 4 or 6.

Hi Adam, I've missed your insights. Welcome back (if you've been gone).

You can add May flying for a mark at D50 (in the 2nd?) and leaving a big hole behind him. For all of his leadership qualities, and holding his teammates to account, this was ordinary.

[Engorged Onion 9,518]

5 minutes ago, In Harmes Way said:

Hi Adam, I've missed your insights. Welcome back (if you've been gone).

You can add May flying for a mark at D50 (in the 2nd?) and leaving a big hole behind him. For all of his leadership qualities, and holding his teammates to account, this was ordinary.

It's a fascinating one isn't it... if he takes the mark, it looks like someone who is at the peak of his game and is lauded for it. 

Was it a percentage play? Nope, but I'd rather him risk that, then play safe.

Players make decisional errors all the time, Gawn [censored] up taps, midfielders decide not to chase/apply heavy pressure, its merely amplified as a defender (I know you know that)...

Having never played a game at high level... can someone walk me through when there is a pack of 3 forwards and 3 defenders, why you wouldnt be prepared to not jump at the ball, in case it's YOUR guy who takes a mark?

How is it communicated in the moment as the ball comes in?

How do you decide to go or stay?

What if you fail to punch exactly where you want it?

What if you drop a mark? (in a pretty difficult situation)... 

I guess I'm trying to illustrate, that its incredibly difficult because you don't necessarily know what your opponents are going to do, nor your team mates opponents, (thus nor your team mate).

 

[Dr. Gonzo 22,637]

17 minutes ago, In Harmes Way said:

Hi Adam, I've missed your insights. Welcome back (if you've been gone).

You can add May flying for a mark at D50 (in the 2nd?) and leaving a big hole behind him. For all of his leadership qualities, and holding his teammates to account, this was ordinary.

It was lairising plain and simple and he should be pulled up for it. We were 7 goals to 0, if it was 7 goals to 5 I doubt May flies for that ball or at least punches it towards the boundary.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It was lairising plain and simple and he should be pulled up for it. We were 7 goals to 0, if it was 7 goals to 5 I doubt May flies for that ball or at least punches it towards the boundary.

My worry with May is he played outstanding footy for GC when he played how he wanted, roaming across the bacline in a sub standard team full of kids. Does he have the disciple and mindset to be a top team first defender. 

[Dr. Gonzo 22,637]

52 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

My worry with May is he played outstanding footy for GC when he played how he wanted, roaming across the bacline in a sub standard team full of kids. Does he have the disciple and mindset to be a top team first defender. 

That's not my worry, he clearly is a great talent and knows how to play his role. My worry is the team won't reach its potential before he gets too old and we will have wasted a top 5 pick that could've been used on a key forward.

[DemonOX 8,551]

12 hours ago, AC/DeeC said:

 I had a few too many on Saturday and on rereading regret my post. I apologise DOX

U won’t be the first dees supporter to drink to much AC. Supporting this club can do that to a person. 

[binman 39,108]

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

It's a fascinating one isn't it... if he takes the mark, it looks like someone who is at the peak of his game and is lauded for it. 

Was it a percentage play? Nope, but I'd rather him risk that, then play safe.

 

 

Don't agree.Forwards can afford to take risks. But defenders have to play the percentages. The risks are too high. 

I have no problem May going for a mark. But he simply has to weigh up the risk reward balance.

In that particular instance as an experienced defender he had to know there was a paddock behind him and no dees player between the contest and the goals (by the by there should have been - ordinarily it would have been omac). So the percentage play was to smash it to the boundary.

Once he chose to mark it instead he simply had to mark it. 

That goal was their first and got them going. We only just won the game. Who knows if he gets that ball out of bounds they might have taken 10 more minutes to score their first and never got close.

The other issue is related to leadership. What is the message he sends by playing hero ball to his team mates, in particular a raw co defender? Is it a coincidence Smith also failed to play the percentages costing us two critical goals?

[In Harmes Way 7,613]

7 minutes ago, binman said:

Don't agree.Forwards can afford to take risks. But defenders have to play the percentages. The risks are too high. 

I have no problem May going for a mark. But he simply has to weigh up the risk reward balance.

In that particular instance as an experienced defender he had to know there was a paddock behind him and no dees player between the contest and the goals (by the by there should have been - ordinarily it would have been omac). So the percentage play was to smash it to the boundary.

Once he chose to mark it instead he simply had to mark it. 

That goal was their first and got them going. We only just won the game. Who knows if he gets that ball out of bounds they might have taken 10 more minutes to score their first and never got close.

The other issue is related to leadership. What is the message he sends by playing hero ball to his team mates, in particular a raw co defender? Is it a coincidence Smith also failed to play the percentages costing us two critical goals?

Exactly my point and much better articulated, thanks BM

[Scoop Junior 3,055]

12 hours ago, AC/DeeC said:

 I had a few too many on Saturday and on rereading regret my post. I apologise SJ.

No worries mate - we are all Dees fans here. Let's hope we all can have a win to discuss this weekend!

[Engorged Onion 9,518]

30 minutes ago, binman said:

The other issue is related to leadership. What is the message he sends by playing hero ball to his team mates, in particular a raw co defender? Is it a coincidence Smith also failed to play the percentages costing us two critical goals?

@binman, I agree with the 'notion' of playing percentages, particularly in that part of the ground. It sounds (and correct me if I am wrong) like you are arguing that no matter the circumstances, never back your own ability to do something that isn't part of your fundamental drilled role. Always in every given situation, no matter the context - always do those things.

If I have interpreted that correctly, what I don't agree with, is that it doesn't allow the fact that people make errors, without the intention of making errors.

It's going to happen, players [censored] up all the time, because they are human.

We  want players to play with risk and flair, to make useful decisions under pressure, but dont legitiamately allow space to make errors and castigate them if they do, because of our own 'expectations' in retrospect after the play has happened.

"Hero Ball" is an emotive response, I know you've backed Goodwin on here - and I do just... (my patience is waining), but if part of the philosophy is to back players to make decisions within their skill set (ability to take mark in traffic, with sure hands)(whilst acknowledging errors will occur), then these things will occur.

What worries me immensely, was not that May's failed mark 'was' the one that got them going, it was the rest of the teams ongoing inability to stem the momentum..

nb: It's an unknown answer to Smith's two leaps. Correlation does not equal causation. But easy to do so in retrospect. Smith's greatest attributes are his athleticism and hands... probably made the decision to commit to the act, and like a hundered times a game, [censored] up a mark. 

Smith is raw... there will be learnings @binman, there will be learnings ...

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Engorged Onion

[Engorged Onion 9,518]

My take - from a leadership perspective, when errors occur.

If the players are taught to play percentages, ie: play safe... they will never ever ever be comfortable taking risks under pressure during a game.

The negative threads post Carlton have all slammed the inability for this team since 2018 to capitalise on our advantage. Well, if you're teaching your players to play safe, it doesn't translate to a capacity to do that.

Funnily enough, from a spectators perspective, when players take risks and it comes off, it doesnt look like a risk and looks great.

Funnily enough, from a spectators perspective, when players take risks and it doesnt come off, it looks awful.

Petraccas first goal was a risky ($$hit) kick to the hotspot, where due to his amazing core strength was able to hold the mark. That was a risk, it paid off and it looks great.

Carlton's first goal was through Steven May not holding a mark (taking a risk), and it looked [censored] (and ergo, people question leadership credentials).

You can train and train and train for this, but the only real time to train for it (to refine skills, feel more comfortable executing) is on game day.

This is why I rate Goodwin... but this is also why Goodwin may fail.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Engorged Onion