Most Valuable Demon

[The Chazz 4,077]

Just now, Lord Nev said:

I don't think you're grasping the point mate.

Gawn played great, our mids won a heap of clearances and we got the ball inside 50 a ton, so all the things you think are important all happened, yet we finished second last.

That tells you that Gawn can play fantastic and do all the things you want, but the team still fails in a huge way.

It tells me that Tom needed to pull his finger out last year.  It also tells me that if Gawn doesn't play fantastic that the damage would've been worse.

Tom's an important link in the chain, but that chain has minimal impact if Gawn (or our ruck in general) isn't playing well at the start of it.

All that said, you haven't actually declared your alliance as to who our MVP is, so I'm going to stop disagreeing with someone that is just out to try and argue against someone for the sake of it.

[Lord Travis 10,176]

5 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

It tells me that Tom needed to pull his finger out last year.  It also tells me that if Gawn doesn't play fantastic that the damage would've been worse.

Tom's an important link in the chain, but that chain has minimal impact if Gawn (or our ruck in general) isn't playing well at the start of it.

Gawn had a brilliant year and dominated. We finished 17th. If he had a poor year, we finish 17th-18th.

TMac had a poor year. We finished 17th. If he had a good year, we finish 17th or higher.

Tmac, and a few others, are more important than Gawn. Ruckman are increasingly irrelevant in the modern game. We’ve won matches over the last few years with others filling the ruck role. We have not won without a high scoring forward firing. Due to the lack of goal kicking options on our list, it increases Tmacs importance.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

7 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

It tells me that Tom needed to pull his finger out last year.  It also tells me that if Gawn doesn't play fantastic that the damage would've been worse.

Tom's an important link in the chain, but that chain has minimal impact if Gawn (or our ruck in general) isn't playing well at the start of it.

All that said, you haven't actually declared your alliance as to who our MVP is, so I'm going to stop disagreeing with someone that is just out to try and argue against someone for the sake of it.

Mate, you've taken the argumentative tone from the start. Other people don't have to agree with you "sheesh".

In 2018, Max had his season low of 30 hitouts v the Suns. We won by nearly 100 points.

In 2019, TMac kicked 6 goals in our win against the Blues. Guess who didn't play that day?

For mine, TMac is they key to us winning games. Not by a huge margin, but if he's in form, taking marks, kicking goals then we generally win. IMO the ruck is a fair way down the list in terms of impact on game results, we saw that when we got on a roll a few years back with Pedersen taking most of the ruck duties. Sure, it's far better to have a great ruck, and they can give you an advantage, but they're not usually the deciding factor in winning or losing, and our 2019 season clearly demonstrates that.

 

[640MD 2,809]

My question is are you talking last year or this coming year ?

thus coming year I vote for Mr Petracca

if he has a year based on what we have seen in the pre season, the sky is the limit for him and for the club . And by extension all of us who can only watch from over the fence!

[DubDee 20,716]

1 Gawn 

2 t Mac

3 may

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

6 hours ago, Demonland said:

Do you agree with Bob Murphy? Who’s your MVP?

 

Most valuable Demon = Ron Barassi.

Most valuable current Demons player = out of an even bunch.  TMc.

Most have not yet put their hands up to claim any accolades. So they don't really deserve any accolades.

[The Chazz 4,077]

4 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Mate, you've taken the argumentative tone from the start. Other people don't have to agree with you "sheesh".

In 2018, Max had his season low of 30 hitouts v the Suns. We won by nearly 100 points.

In 2019, TMac kicked 6 goals in our win against the Blues. Guess who didn't play that day?

For mine, TMac is they key to us winning games. Not by a huge margin, but if he's in form, taking marks, kicking goals then we generally win. IMO the ruck is a fair way down the list in terms of impact on game results, we saw that when we got on a roll a few years back with Pedersen taking most of the ruck duties. Sure, it's far better to have a great ruck, and they can give you an advantage, but they're not usually the deciding factor in winning or losing, and our 2019 season clearly demonstrates that.

 

Ah yes, I was waiting for that Carlton game. Yes, Gawn didn't play, but guess what, the "irrelevant" ruckman on that day, Preuss, had 40+ hitouts.

When a ruckman dominates, players like McDonald (ie a key forward) should be of value, that's their job.

Gawn is a consistently dominant ruck, which is why he's by far our most valuable player.

Justone last thing, if you're going to come back at me with specific games, how's about you do it with games that are against top sides, not insignificant nothings. Cheers, "mate".

[The Chazz 4,077]

4 hours ago, Lord Travis said:

Gawn had a brilliant year and dominated. We finished 17th. If he had a poor year, we finish 17th-18th.

TMac had a poor year. We finished 17th. If he had a good year, we finish 17th or higher.

Tmac, and a few others, are more important than Gawn. Ruckman are increasingly irrelevant in the modern game. We’ve won matches over the last few years with others filling the ruck role. We have not won without a high scoring forward firing. Due to the lack of goal kicking options on our list, it increases Tmacs importance.

And if Gawn doesn't have a brilliant year, we can only finish 17th or 18th because there's no lower you can finish. We would be just worse and win less games.

You are seriously underestimating the role of a ruckman. Slobbo has 2 rucks in his top 10. Most top 8 sides would kill for a quality ruck.

You are embarrassing yourself.

[TGR 1,367]

17 hours ago, The Chazz said:

So because TMc can play multiple positions and Gawn can't, that means TMc is more valuable?  Point is, we can move Tom out of FF, and still have other scoring options.  Yes, Tom can be an adequate replacement in defence, he's too slow to be an an adequate replacement for Langdon or Tomlinson on the wing.  His ruck work is competitive at best.

Gawn's importance is in two key areas for mine.  Our midfield rely on him feeding them - they aren't very good at sharking an opposition ruck.  Their dominance, which can be quite a strength, relies on Max winning the ruck contest.  If our midfield are dominating, then our avenue to goal is very unpredictable, and as we saw in 2018, can score big scores.

The other important role Max plays is being able to drop back in defence.  If sides start getting on top, and isolating Lever one-out, which gets him out of his comfort zone, Gawn can play the intercept marking role very well.

The Gawn/Grundy comparison has nothing to do with Max's value to our team.  But it's also a comparison that I don't think has a true winner (like comparing Black Caviar with Winx).  There's areas that Max has Grundy covered, but there are areas that Grundy has Max covered.  They are both high quality, A+ rucks, and we're fortunate to have one on our list.

 

Unlike most here, you have returned serve with objectivity and reason.  Well done.

I expect Grundy to go to another level; therefore neither are A+ in my book.  As for Winx and Black Caviar, maybe the Phar Laps of the 70’s in Thompson, Moore, Newman and Dempsey have them covered.

 

If I was coaching against Melbourne, TMac would be the one keeping me awake at night.  2019 was an aberration for him.

 

The last thing is that Bob Murphy actually thinks deeply before speaking.  He ain’t afraid of walking against the herd too.  Rare in the footy world of journalism and cyberspace.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,217]

17 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Max was All-Australian last year. Ranked 3rd for hitouts. As a team we were 8th for clearances and 5th for inside 50s.

We finished 17th.

TMac kicked 18 goals.

This here. People should not get caught up on best player vs value and impact on result. For me its TMac and May by the length of the straight. Without Gawn we would find a way to win. Those two completely change our ability to attack and defend when not at their best or absent. They also could if necessary play at either end. 

[Demons1858 1,662]

The MVP is heavily influenced by how good the player is, whether they play are more specialised positron, the quality of their replacement in that position, and how well the team can adapt to cover for them.

For those reasons, quality talks and forwards tend to be MVP's. The wing is also an important role for us to fill as we found out last year.

Tmac, May, Gawn, Oliver, Melk in that order. Langdon, Fritch, Viney (if uninjured) may emerge as mvp contenders as the year goes on

[Skuit 9,184]

We've yet to experience a scenario where Clarry is absent from the team-sheets, and it may be that we underestimate his importance. Yeah - heaps of inside mids, but that's precisely why he's important - we play a contested style of footy and Clarry is a congestion-breaker. He may not have missed through injury, but I know what it's like watching Melbourne when he's having a flat patch on field - and also when he fires up. Here's a convoluted stat:

Across twelve occasions, we've only lost two games of footy by greater than a goal when Clarry has achieved double-digit clearances. Jack Viney has achieved the double-digit clearance feat on six occasions for two wins and four losses. One of those was the West Coast prelim - where JV racked 11 and Clarry managed his equal lowest (post-2016) tally of 3. We've never won a match when Clarry has had only three clearances (not the case with JV).  

 

[loges 6,090]

On 3/13/2020 at 3:54 PM, The Chazz said:

You've actually proven my point.  Max is more valuable than Tom.

Thanks.

 

Yea/ Nah

[loges 6,090]

I see it this way, Max may be our most valuable player but if Tmac doesn't get back to something like his 2018 form, we'll improve but not by as much as we should. Others like Fritsch and Melk may step up but your smaller forwards are easier to contain.