Jack Viney a Liability?

[drysdale demon 4,193]

Just now, Lord Nev said:

Which is why I added that I remembered incorrectly. Didn't think it was that hard to understand.

It wasn't hard to understand, maybe you should have been more accurate in the first instance instead of posting crap

[Dee Zephyr 17,900]

[Lord Nev 13,511]

1 minute ago, drysdale demon said:

It wasn't hard to understand, maybe you should have been more accurate in the first instance instead of posting crap

Thanks for another quality contribution to talking footy here.

[drysdale demon 4,193]

Just now, Lord Nev said:

Thanks for another quality contribution to talking footy here.

Glad to anytime.

[old55 21,532]

22 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

The Perth one I'm pretty sure.

Edit - Just looked up to make sure, and Hurn and McGovern had a total of 25 marks in that game (including 19 intercepts). Geez. BUT I might have remembered incorrectly about the total of marks from Viney kicks directly.

Viney is credited with 3 turnovers, Salem had 7.

You also neglected to say that Josh Wagner and Marty Hore had a total of 20 intercepts between them - 10 each.

Keep digging and you'll pop up in a deserted Wuhan street shortly.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

Just now, Fifty-5 said:

Viney is credited with 3 turnovers, Salem had 7.

You also neglected to say that Josh Wagner and Marty Hore had a total of 20 intercepts between them - 10 each.

Keep digging and you'll pop up in a deserted Wuhan street shortly.

Turnovers and disposal efficiency are flawed stats. You can technically turn it over but it be an "effective disposal" in certain circumstances.

Not sure what Wagner and Hore have to do with our kicking inside 50, but good for them.

Viney last year was rated as the worst player in the league for kick retention inside 50 (recorded by Champion Data), but sure lets all just take cracks at someone who made an error online bEcaUse He BleEdS rEd AnD bLuE.

[Damo 3,015]

Its like we all know each other yet we are bashing trolleys to get to the dunny paper.

[ArtificialWisdom 3,916]

1 hour ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Ridiculous thread. Shut it down. A fit Jack Viney is in the best 22 in ANY side in the league.  He is a tough mid who wins the footy and gets the footy.  He bleeds red and blue. His disposal is ok but certainly not horrid.  His toughness and leadership leaves many others in the dust.  

Liability is way too harsh for Viney. But if sub par disposal and effort was enough to make people happy then ANB would be a demonland favourite instead of whipping boy

Jack clearly has issues, his complete lack of versatility probably being the primary issue here. But like a few others mentioned I'd like to see him have a crack after a solid preseason. 

[old55 21,532]

13 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Turnovers and disposal efficiency are flawed stats. You can technically turn it over but it be an "effective disposal" in certain circumstances.

Not sure what Wagner and Hore have to do with our kicking inside 50, but good for them.

Viney last year was rated as the worst player in the league for kick retention inside 50 (recorded by Champion Data), but sure lets all just take cracks at someone who made an error online bEcaUse He BleEdS rEd AnD bLuE.

It's a massive bridge from 3 turnovers to your "19 intercept marks"

You were clearly implying that Hurn and McGovern's 19 intercepts is a huge number.
"Just looked up to make sure, and Hurn and McGovern had a total of 25 marks in that game (including 19 intercepts). Geez." 
However two of our defenders had more - that's why it's relevant.

Don't post bullsh1te and you won't be called on it.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Fifty-5

[Lord Nev 13,511]

8 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

It's a massive bridge from 3 turnovers to your "19 intercept marks"

You were clearly implying that Hurn and McGovern's 19 intercepts is a huge number.
"Just looked up to make sure, and Hurn and McGovern had a total of 25 marks in that game (including 19 intercepts). Geez." 
However two of our defenders had more - that's why it's relevant.

Don't post bullsh1te and you won't be called on it.

I never said Viney was the cause of 19 intercept marks. Not my fault if you (possibly on purpose) misinterpret things. Also, I've already explained how turnovers and disposal efficiency are flawed stats.

I've admitted and owned up to getting the Viney kicks inside 50 wrong, but if you honestly believe he and the rest of the players have been delivering it inside 50 at AFL standard then you have an opposite view to every single credible footy analyst, commentator and media person who has taken a look at us.

We're talking about Viney. If Wagner and Hore played for the opposition then sure, their stats would be relevant, but they are simply not.

Talk about posting "bullsh1te".

Edit - Adding for context:

"It was typical Melbourne. They wasted opportunities and had poor inside 50 entries - they finished with 62 to West Coast’s 47 and had four more scoring shots for the match, but lost by 16 points."

"It took deep entries for the Demons to lead at all three breaks. At halftime, for example, all five of Melbourne’s goals were kicked essentially from the goal square, or 10 metres out from there but directly in front."

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/live-afl-round-9-west-coast-eagles-v-melbourne/news-story/04cb0c5b0514136e607cee76c6aeeef6

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Lord Nev

[Mental Demons 136]

I agree that Viney is one dimensional. We were able to cover his loss to injury better than any other injury last year. It was not our midfield that was the problem. We won enough of the ball to be more successful. I do think he is good enough to be in the midfield rotation. I don't think he is first picked quality anymore. He does not work as well with some combinations of our midfield. He is a high quality second string midfielder the problem is what to do with him when he is not in the midfield and do others offer more. He has runs on the board and if he recognised he was a liability he would not hurt the team. Success on the field has more to do with the best 25-30 not the best 22 and Viney would be well good enough for that.

[old55 21,532]

11 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

I've admitted and owned up to getting the Viney kicks inside 50 wrong,

... mayonnaise ...

 

[Damo 3,015]

Is his one dimension; toughness, ability to break open packs and get the ball, set tackling standards, have opposition watch out for him when he is needed to show captaincy in last quarters or to make other teammates around him walk taller? They are the dimensions I see.

[binman 39,001]

38 minutes ago, Luther said:

 I think we'll see him play with more freedom as VC

Agree with this. 

Also i reckon this is the first uninterrupted preseason he has had. So he'll be fully fit and raring to go.

[Lord Travis 10,246]

Viney is no superstar, but when he's fit and in-form he's a good player who can have a huge impact on games. That West Coast game in Perth a few years ago is the perfect example of what peak Viney does. 

[dworship 3,342]

5 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

No I love Viney. Hate his kicking inside 50, but love him otherwise.

Interesting you talk about bias and inventing things...

Not sure what you're talking about there. I'm not biased or inventing things about you or Viney for that matter.

I actually agree with you. It would be wonderful to see his and a number of others, disposal efficiency improve.

Even without this I think he is in for a great year if his feet and fitness generally, hold up. If we take the recent MS game against Adelaide (I know it's a small sample size and only a pre season game) his SC score was 120, his average last year was 81.  He kicked 2 points in that game and while some on here will use that to confirm their opinion, I'm more pleased that he has had a couple of shots on goal. He didn't get too many chances last year.

"Hate his kicking inside 50" It's not really his go though is it? If we're relying on Viney's accuracy to win us games then I think the focus is in the wrong place. The other thing is; a lot of time Viney is under pressure when disposing by hand or foot. This reflected in most of the midfield disposal stats. Consider the table below (just so you know, I try and back up my opinion rather than inventing things)

2019 Melbourne Effective Disposals % Per Game Leaders (Minimum 5 Games Played)

Rank Name Games Average 1 Neville Jetta 7 82.73 2 Jordan Lewis 12 77.74 3 Billy Stretch 9 76.92 4 Harrison Petty 10 76.60 5 Steven May 8 74.40 6 Jay Kennedy-Harris 5 74.12 7 Oscar McDonald 12 73.77 8 Christian Salem 20 73.03 9 Sam Frost 22 73.01 10 Kyle Dunkley 5 72.92 11 Jake Lever 8 72.64 12 Sam Weideman 11 72.54 13 Bayley Fritsch 22 72.21 14 Nathan Jones 22 71.17 15 Michael Hibberd 19 71.03 16 Jack Viney 21 70.79 17 Joshua Wagner 12 70.12 18 Jayden Hunt 21 69.83 19 Marty Hore 14 69.30 20 Jay Lockhart 12 68.92 21 Corey Wagner 11 68.89 22 Clayton Oliver 22 68.69 23 Christian Petracca 22 68.66 24 James Harmes 22 68.65 25 Charlie Spargo 8 67.73 26 Oskar Baker 9 67.71 27 Max Gawn 21 66.69 28 Angus Brayshaw 22 64.27 29 Mitchell Hannan 6 63.91 30 Alex Neal-Bullen 14 63.62 31 Tom McDonald 15 61.18 32 Braydon Preuss 7 59.07 33 Jake Melksham 12 56.85 34 Tim Smith 7 56.76 35 Jeff Garlett 7 54.48

[Lord Nev 13,511]

17 minutes ago, dworship said:

Not sure what you're talking about there. I'm not biased or inventing things about you or Viney for that matter.

I actually agree with you. It would be wonderful to see his and a number of others, disposal efficiency improve.

Even without this I think he is in for a great year if his feet and fitness generally, hold up. If we take the recent MS game against Adelaide (I know it's a small sample size and only a pre season game) his SC score was 120, his average last year was 81.  He kicked 2 points in that game and while some on here will use that to confirm their opinion, I'm more pleased that he has had a couple of shots on goal. He didn't get too many chances last year.

"Hate his kicking inside 50" It's not really his go though is it? If we're relying on Viney's accuracy to win us games then I think the focus is in the wrong place. The other thing is; a lot of time Viney is under pressure when disposing by hand or foot. This reflected in most of the midfield disposal stats. Consider the table below (just so you know, I try and back up my opinion rather than inventing things)

2019 Melbourne Effective Disposals % Per Game Leaders (Minimum 5 Games Played)

Rank Name Games Average 1 Neville Jetta 7 82.73 2 Jordan Lewis 12 77.74 3 Billy Stretch 9 76.92 4 Harrison Petty 10 76.60 5 Steven May 8 74.40 6 Jay Kennedy-Harris 5 74.12 7 Oscar McDonald 12 73.77 8 Christian Salem 20 73.03 9 Sam Frost 22 73.01 10 Kyle Dunkley 5 72.92 11 Jake Lever 8 72.64 12 Sam Weideman 11 72.54 13 Bayley Fritsch 22 72.21 14 Nathan Jones 22 71.17 15 Michael Hibberd 19 71.03 16 Jack Viney 21 70.79 17 Joshua Wagner 12 70.12 18 Jayden Hunt 21 69.83 19 Marty Hore 14 69.30 20 Jay Lockhart 12 68.92 21 Corey Wagner 11 68.89 22 Clayton Oliver 22 68.69 23 Christian Petracca 22 68.66 24 James Harmes 22 68.65 25 Charlie Spargo 8 67.73 26 Oskar Baker 9 67.71 27 Max Gawn 21 66.69 28 Angus Brayshaw 22 64.27 29 Mitchell Hannan 6 63.91 30 Alex Neal-Bullen 14 63.62 31 Tom McDonald 15 61.18 32 Braydon Preuss 7 59.07 33 Jake Melksham 12 56.85 34 Tim Smith 7 56.76 35 Jeff Garlett 7 54.48

 

You seem to be confusing delivery inside 50 with goal kicking accuracy, so not 100% what you're on about there with kicking points etc?

Also, disposal efficiency is a useless stat. It's parameters are very poor and in some circumstances you can be awarded an "effective disposal" even though the opposition ends up with the ball. And that's without even mentioning the fact it doesn't take context of disposal into account.

As for Supercoach scores... You're not seriously suggesting that is a relevant stat?

As a midfielder who wins the ball and kicks it inside 50, of course it is "his go" to be up to scratch in that area.

If you want to talk stats, let's talk about Champion Data's stat of kick retention inside 50. This stat has far better parameters than disposal efficiency and measures how many times a kick inside 50 is retained by the same team, taking into account the difficulty of said kick:

In 2019, Viney went at 21.2% kick retention, which was the worst in the league.

Source

He was also rated as 508th for kicking... 508th.

Source

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Lord Nev

[Pates 9,537]

No doubt Viney's delivery into the forward 50 was deplorable in 2019, he wasn't alone with that at the club (and you can argue that as co-captain he set the tone). But I think that was as much an awful forward set up plan, along with a depleted stock of options meaning that entries were easily covered.

But yes it's something that I would very much hope he has worked hard on over the summer, same with Oliver and his kicking, same with Petracca and his ability to affect games for longer.

Aside from Gawn and Oliver (at least with his ability to get clearances and feed the ball out) no one at the club could say they had a season they'd be personally satisfied with.

[dworship 3,342]

5 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

 

You seem to be confusing delivery inside 50 with goal kicking accuracy, so not 100% what you're on about there with kicking points etc?

Also, disposal efficiency is a useless stat. It's parameters are very poor and in some circumstances you can be awarded an "effective disposal" even though the opposition ends up with the ball. And that's without even mentioning the fact it doesn't take context of disposal into account.

As for Supercoach scores... You're not seriously suggesting that is a relevant stat?

As a midfielder who wins the ball and kicks it inside 50, of course it is "his go" to be up to scratch in that area.

If you want to talk stats, let's talk about Champion Data's stat of kick retention inside 50. This stat has far better parameters than disposal efficiency and measures how many times a kick inside 50 is retained by the same team, taking into account the difficulty of said kick:

In 2019, Viney went at 24% kick retention, which was the worst in the league.

 

Any chance you can post a link /post the stats on here for the whole team?

[Lord Nev 13,511]

Just now, dworship said:

Any chance you can post a link /post the stats on here for the whole team?

Have just edited the post to add sources for stats. They didn't have the whole team as it was a specific article about Melbourne's woeful delivery inside 50. Clarry and Gus were also well below average for kick retention though.

 

[Lord Nev 13,511]

4 minutes ago, dworship said:

Any chance you can post a link /post the stats on here for the whole team?

Just adding another source, with a snippet from the article:

Teams have enjoyed huge success scoring on the counter-attack against Melbourne this year, and Collingwood’s Jeremy Howe and Darcy Moore will attempt to pick off any misdirected delivery in the Queen’s Birthday blockbuster today at the MCG.

Whereas Geelong has jumped the competition with their lethal forward craft, the Demons are ranked third-last for retaining possession from a kick inside 50m at 41 per cent, well down on the AFL average (46 per cent).

It’s arguably a by-product of the way the Demons have wanted to play under Simon Goodwin, and that tough, fearless, first-in brand of footy.

They only lost the contested ball count in two games last season.

But some finesse has been lost as they sit 3-8 midway through a season which, initially, promised so much.

And while James Harmes (59 per cent retention), Tom McDonald (57), and Christian Petracca (48) have been sharper than most kicking the ball to forward targets, it’s been more problematic when hard nuts Angus Brayshaw (33) Clayton Oliver (30) and Viney (24) have been in possession.

Melbourne needs to improve its ball use or find more class to take the next step, writes Jay Clark

 

[dworship 3,342]

8 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Just adding another source, with a snippet from the article:

Teams have enjoyed huge success scoring on the counter-attack against Melbourne this year, and Collingwood’s Jeremy Howe and Darcy Moore will attempt to pick off any misdirected delivery in the Queen’s Birthday blockbuster today at the MCG.

Whereas Geelong has jumped the competition with their lethal forward craft, the Demons are ranked third-last for retaining possession from a kick inside 50m at 41 per cent, well down on the AFL average (46 per cent).

It’s arguably a by-product of the way the Demons have wanted to play under Simon Goodwin, and that tough, fearless, first-in brand of footy.

They only lost the contested ball count in two games last season.

But some finesse has been lost as they sit 3-8 midway through a season which, initially, promised so much.

And while James Harmes (59 per cent retention), Tom McDonald (57), and Christian Petracca (48) have been sharper than most kicking the ball to forward targets, it’s been more problematic when hard nuts Angus Brayshaw (33) Clayton Oliver (30) and Viney (24) have been in possession.

Melbourne needs to improve its ball use or find more class to take the next step, writes Jay Clark

 

 

13 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Have just edited the post to add sources for stats. They didn't have the whole team as it was a specific article about Melbourne's woeful delivery inside 50. Clarry and Gus were also well below average for kick retention though.

 

Yes, and it wasn't for the whole year was it. It was all the 1st half of the season. For credibility it might be helpful to supply all the season. It would be interesting to then see if they improved as it might give a pointer to the attempt to correct the problems. It would be great if someone on here had access to the complete stuff rather than rely on the "little paper".

[Demon3 2,541]

2 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

When we played West Coast last year Hurn and McGovern combined for double figures in marks purely from Viney kicks.

But sure, he 'bleeds red and blue' so let's not talk about it.

Adding an edit because there seems to be an echo in here - It wouldn't have been double figures as Viney only had 9 kicks for the game. Hurn and McGovern took 19 intercept marks in that game however.

 

In fairness LN, Jack was not alone that day,  he still tried his heart out, most Contested possessions on the ground, alot of players had really bad games. His first 2 finals were fantastic and at times pretty inspirational (relatively speaking) coming off a no lead up matches.

He is like nearly every player in the comp, has his faults and limitations but i will take his attitude and competitiveness every single day.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

1 minute ago, dworship said:

Yes, and it wasn't for the whole year was it. It was all the 1st half of the season. For credibility it might be helpful to supply all the season. It would be interesting to then see if they improved as it might give a pointer to the attempt to correct the problems. It would be great if someone on here had access to the complete stuff rather than rely on the "little paper".

Now you're getting a bit silly.

[Lord Nev 13,511]

Just now, Demon3 said:

In fairness LN, Jack was not alone that day,  he still tried his heart out, most Contested possessions on the ground, alot of players had really bad games. His first 2 finals were fantastic and at times pretty inspirational (relatively speaking) coming off a no lead up matches.

He is like nearly every player in the comp, has his faults and limitations but i will take his attitude and competitiveness every single day.

Absolutely, but it's a thread about Viney so the main focus has been on him. As mentioned in other posts, Clarry and Gus were both also terrible at delivery forward.

I love Jack. He's the type of player that makes you proud that he plays for your club, but that doesn't mean everything about his game is beyond reproach. Bleeding red and blue doesn't mean you escape reasonable criticism for weaknesses in your game that can hurt the team.