So which of these players should we have recruited and for what role?

Should have quoted SONS.

Edited September 23, 2024Sep 23 by Mach5

7 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Traded in across the last 3 years. 

So let’s compare us to others where clubs have added to their lists since our 2021 premiership   Others have improved their list.   Just in my view, we didn’t seize the opportunity to recruit effectively 

Dees. Dunstan  Hunter  Billings  Schache   Fullarton McAdam 

Swans. Francis Grundy. JJ. Adams. Hamling

Lions. Fort. Daniher. Dunkley  Doedee*

Port  Finlayson  JHF  Rioli  Ratugolea  Sweet  Zerk-thatcher Soldo 

Cats   Bruhn  Bowes  Stengle  O.Henry

Giants. Bedford 

Hawks    Chol  Amon  Meek Ginnivan D’ambrisio

Bulldogs   Lobb Harmes

Blues. Cerra.  Hewett.  Young.  Acres. Hollands. 

Pies. Mcstay. Bobby Hill. Lipinski. Mitchell  Schulz 

Freo.  Clark. Omeara Jackson 

 

When you win a premiership and you have a tight cap, how do you expect to grab top end talent.   You do realise that you have to stay within the cap?

@Mach5 The point was why waste list spots of players who are just random salary dumps like Hunter and Billings.   Sure we gave up later draft spots but missed the chance for good youngsters or emerging VFL talent. They are now list cloggers imv. 
29 year old declining injured types (Mcadam) are not the players I’m wanting to see added. Especially not giving up 2nd rounder picks to get them. 

Other clubs brought in talent to add to areas that they needed.  If you salary cap is tight, don’t invest in older players on 3 year contracts.  Go with younger hungry types.  Anyway it’s done but you need to learn and don’t repeat the sins of the past.  

16 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

 

I think it’s pretty clear that nobody here actually knows what Tim Lamb does, nor how the roles and possibilities of list additions and deletions are divided amongst those within the footy department.

 

People are highlighting examples of trading that didn’t come off eg McAdam/Fullarton/Grundy to rationalise their anger at Lamb but my guess is no Geelong supporters are displaying anger that experiments like Dahlhaus didn’t work. 
 

Geelong‘s list-management success lies in their ability to pivot effectively over the course of a few years, albeit with a leg-up from their attractiveness as a unique destination eg Jeremy Cameron. 
 

Lamb still deserves that chance to show he can pivot (although he is running out of time) but it isn’t just the role of Lamb, it is a football department accountability.  I’d have head of football under more pressure than  Lamb is right now 

On 24/09/2024 at 09:48, spirit of norm smith said:

@Mach5 The point was why waste list spots of players who are just random salary dumps like Hunter and Billings.   Sure we gave up later draft spots but missed the chance for good youngsters or emerging VFL talent. They are now list cloggers imv. 
29 year old declining injured types (Mcadam) are not the players I’m wanting to see added. Especially not giving up 2nd rounder picks to get them. 

Other clubs brought in talent to add to areas that they needed.  If you salary cap is tight, don’t invest in older players on 3 year contracts.  Go with younger hungry types.  Anyway it’s done but you need to learn and don’t repeat the sins of the past.  

Because they were brought in to fill a need.

Hunter was a genuine winger who enabled Gus to move to half back.

Billings was brought in to allow more flexibility with Lingers, who played between wing and half forward in the first half of the year. We needed someone with the running capacity to cover those wing minutes, and we weren't expecting Windsor to play as many games as he did, nor to the level that he delivered on.

So they're not random salary dumps. That's irrelevant. They are strategically and cheaply acquired assets.

Edited September 24, 2024Sep 24 by Adam The God

@Adam The God we will agree to disagree.  Dogs and Saints wanted them out. They were NOT getting a game.  They had multi year contracts with bigger $$ for VFL players and they wanted them off their lists.  That’s the facts.  If you want fill a need, find that player from another club.  A player who is still up to performing and improving the team.  Eg. We got Hunter. Hawks got Amon (unrestricted free agent).  Left foot wingman. 

14 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

@Adam The God we will agree to disagree.  Dogs and Saints wanted them out. They were NOT getting a game.  They had multi year contracts with bigger $$ for VFL players and they wanted them off their lists.  That’s the facts.  If you want fill a need, find that player from another club.  A player who is still up to performing and improving the team.  Eg. We got Hunter. Hawks got Amon (unrestricted free agent).  Left foot wingman. 

But you're not really listening to posters arguments here.

Amon would have cost significant TPP...

4 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Dogs and Saints wanted them out. They were NOT getting a game.  They had multi year contracts with bigger $$ for VFL players and they wanted them off their lists.  That’s the facts.

We wanted Grundy out. Geelong wanted Stengle out. Gold Coast wanted Chol out. Port Adelaide wanted Teakle out. Gold Coast wanted Bowes out. Hawthorn wanted Mitchell out. 

It's not a good argument.

We have paid peanuts to get depth players to complement the strong list we already had. Hawthorn paid a lot of money because they had salary cap to burn due to their terrible performances whilst we had a list with the contracts of Petracca, Oliver, Gawn, May, Lever, Brayshaw, Salem, Langdon etc on it. You're comparing apples with oranges. 

The point was offering multi year contracts to players clearly in decline. 29 year old players struggling to get on the field and struggling to get a game and on bigger salaries.  We helped the dogs and saints and crows and clogged our list.  If the cap is too tight, then surely younger hungrier players to fit the need would be the better strategy.  

Edited September 24, 2024Sep 24 by spirit of norm smith
O

1 hour ago, spirit of norm smith said:

The point was offering multi year contracts to players clearly in decline. 29 year old players struggling to get on the field and struggling to get a game and on bigger salaries.  We helped the dogs and saints and crows and clogged our list.  If the cap is too tight, then surely younger hungrier players to fit the need would be the better strategy.  

What you are missing is we have been in contention the last 4 years. We need some experienced back ups if come finals time we had injuries to best 22 players. Schache, Hunter Billings all fit this need. Id much rather Hunter starting on the wing in a prelim final if Lingers gets injured than some 18yo pick 67.

The other factor is with both Hunter and Billings we did a favors for Paul Connors. When he pays us back they will be a small price to pay in the big picture of things.

3 hours ago, BangBnagBang said:

What you are missing is we have been in contention the last 4 years. We need some experienced back ups if come finals time we had injuries to best 22 players. Schache, Hunter Billings all fit this need. Id much rather Hunter starting on the wing in a prelim final if Lingers gets injured than some 18yo pick 67.

The other factor is with both Hunter and Billings we did a favors for Paul Connors. When he pays us back they will be a small price to pay in the big picture of things.

Agreed Paul Connors is a man of his word and has integrity

5 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

We wanted Grundy out. Geelong wanted Stengle out. Gold Coast wanted Chol out. Port Adelaide wanted Teakle out. Gold Coast wanted Bowes out. Hawthorn wanted Mitchell out. 

It's not a good argument.

We have paid peanuts to get depth players to complement the strong list we already had. Hawthorn paid a lot of money because they had salary cap to burn due to their terrible performances whilst we had a list with the contracts of Petracca, Oliver, Gawn, May, Lever, Brayshaw, Salem, Langdon etc on it. You're comparing apples with oranges. 

Geelong wanted Stengle out. Really? We wanted Grundy out due to our own incompetence. Port wanted Teakle out because they recruited a better player in Sweet, and had Soldo and Vinsentini as backup. 

Geelong acquired a 24yo Bowes plus gained a draft pick. Bowes had come off a long term injury in 2022. We acquired 27yos Hunter and Billings, who had spent time in the VFL due to poor form. Surely you can see the difference.

And you tried to argue that Hayden McLean wouldn't be a good fit for us as a forward/ruck when we acquired Grundy. How's that looking now?

8 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

So let’s compare us to others where clubs have added to their lists since our 2021 premiership

Just a little bit selective perhaps? Also not entirely accurate. Daniher was traded in 2020, and for the Dogs you've omitted Coffield who hasn't exactly transformed their team. You've also omitted the trading of 8 teams, which completely skews your comparisons. Cherry-picking.

You've also omitted players traded OUT, which also falls under list management. Even amongst the clubs you've listed there are a few who would be on a net loss when you look at who they've lost. e.g. Fremantle - Cerra, Schultz, Lobb, Henry were all established in their team.

Finally, you can't compare without context. A team lower down the ladder with few big salaries to manage, lots of cap space and more high draft picks will always have a stronger hand come trade time.

12 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Geelong acquired a 24yo Bowes plus gained a draft pick

plus had to pick up his $1.6 million over 2 years.

Might as well include all the facts, not just the ones that suit your argument.

5 hours ago, Adam The God said:

But you're not really listening to posters arguments here.

Amon would have cost significant TPP...

I’m sure Hawks would have offered a bit more money but I’m sure we could of offered him a decent contract while we were right in the middle of our prem window and the Hawks were bottom dwellers. I don’t think TPP is a good excuse for our poor trading post flag. 

1 hour ago, Colm said:

I’m sure Hawks would have offered a bit more money but I’m sure we could of offered him a decent contract while we were right in the middle of our prem window and the Hawks were bottom dwellers. I don’t think TPP is a good excuse for our poor trading post flag. 

Well, it depends what our other needs were.

I don't think tying up a reasonable amount of TPP in a winger was the best port of call. Neither did the FD. They were trying to lure a KPF and/or a genuine mid with that TPP.

2 hours ago, mo64 said:

Geelong wanted Stengle out. Really?

Typo. Adelaide wanted Stengle out. They delisted him. Nobody picked him up.

2 hours ago, mo64 said:

 We wanted Grundy out due to our own incompetence. Port wanted Teakle out because they recruited a better player in Sweet, and had Soldo and Vinsentini as backup. 

Geelong acquired a 24yo Bowes plus gained a draft pick. Bowes had come off a long term injury in 2022.

These are true. Nobody is arguing that they aren’t true. There were good reasons why those clubs wanted those players out. But SONS argued that we shouldn’t recruit players that other teams don’t want. I used these examples, which you agree with, to show that this wasn’t a good argument. 

I appreciate your support.

2 hours ago, mo64 said:

And you tried to argue that Hayden McLean wouldn't be a good fit for us as a forward/ruck when we acquired Grundy. How's that looking now?

Did I? I honestly don’t even remember discussing Hayden McLean nor having any particularly strong thoughts about him (past or present). Obviously you do and it was, apparently, quite important to you. 🤷‍♂️

Edited September 24, 2024Sep 24 by Axis of Bob

2 hours ago, mo64 said:

And you tried to argue that Hayden McLean wouldn't be a good fit for us as a forward/ruck when we acquired Grundy. How's that looking now?

Wait wait wait!!! I found it!!! 😁

I have amassed two posts on Demonland about Hayden McLean. They were both in August 12, 2022. The first one literally listed the statistics of McLean and Sam Weideman without judgement. This was the second:

In response to your argument that McLean could be a number 1 ruckman, I responded that he hasn’t been playing ruck in the VFL, but rather that he’s a tall forward and listed the stats showing that. The post shows that I listed these without judgement of McLean’s quality, simply that we need to make sure we don’t overrate opposition players just because we don’t see them much. 

Funnily enough, Sydney then recruited Grundy as a ruckman rather than use McLean as the ruck, and McLean has averaged less than 7 hit outs a game this year.

No offence but this is a super weird beef to have carried around with you for two years. I’m incredibly disappointed to go back to my posts and find that I was being so neutral and passive, as I thought I must have unleashed some incredibly brutal zinger that had buried itself so deep in your soul. Alas, I again find that I’m less interesting than I wish I was. 😢

Edited September 24, 2024Sep 24 by Axis of Bob

13 hours ago, Adam The God said:

Because they were brought in to fill a need.

Hunter was a genuine winger who enabled Gus to move to half back.

Billings was brought in to allow more flexibility with Lingers, who played between wing and half forward in the first half of the year. We needed someone with the running capacity to cover those wing minutes, and we weren't expecting Windsor to play as many games as he did, nor to the level that he delivered on.

So they're not random salary dumps. That's irrelevant. They are strategically ajd cheaply acquired assets.

There's only one relevant question. 

Over the past 3 years did the list managers improve our list or make it worse ?

The answer is obvious.

Tim Lamb walks into a list management committee meeting:

Lamb: Hi everybody, I'm Tim Lamb. You may know me from such draftings as Trent Rivers and Kysaiah Pickett .

Jason Taylor: Hi.

Simon Goodwin: Hi.

Lamb: What are you doing here, Simon? Shouldn’t you be off working out a tag for Nick Daicos? He’s such an amazing player.

Goodwin: Sorry, I’ll go. Learnings learned.

Lamb: Where is Gary Pert?

Taylor: Said something about attending a meeting on our new home ground, but has been posting air-fried miniature burrito recipes from Noosa.

Lamb: Great. That might help get us Caleb Daniel across. In the meantime, we need to fill a forward list vacancy. We have Wade Derksen on the radar.

Taylor: Never heard of him.

Lamb: My mail says he was drafted in 2022.

Taylor: My team only deals with incoming draftees. All the old files we take to Alice and bury in the outback.

Lamb: So should we trade for him?

Taylor: Sure. Ask Mahoney and Viney to sort it out.

Lamb: Never heard of them.

Edited September 24, 2024Sep 24 by Skuit

On 09/10/2019 at 15:01, Ethan Tremblay said:

Don’t trust a Detective, they’re all bloody dodgy. 

That aside, he was our national recruiting officer for some time and you’re saying he’s now our list manager? Running on little sleep and trying to make sense of the OP. 

My old man was a detective and nobody alive had a bad word to say about him.

12 hours ago, Adam The God said:

Well, it depends what our other needs were.

I don't think tying up a reasonable amount of TPP in a winger was the best port of call. Neither did the FD. They were trying to lure a KPF and/or a genuine mid with that TPP.

My point was meant to be more about our overall post flag trading than just the  Amon deal.

I don’t believe TPP  is an excuse for our poor trading.

We were the best team in the league in the middle of a flag window. We should have been able to attract a big fish but that didn’t happen. 
But the Hawks and others have proven there were good role players to be had if our list management was better. 
We could have brought in Meek and Acres instead of Grundy and Hunter for example. Even with the Pies chipping in for Grundy, Meek and Acres would have cost us less. 

11 minutes ago, Colm said:

My point was meant to be more about our overall post flag trading than just the  Amon deal.

I don’t believe TPP  is an excuse for our poor trading.

We were the best team in the league in the middle of a flag window. We should have been able to attract a big fish but that didn’t happen. 
But the Hawks and others have proven there were good role players to be had if our list management was better. 
We could have brought in Meek and Acres instead of Grundy and Hunter for example. Even with the Pies chipping in for Grundy, Meek and Acres would have cost us less. 

But Meek is the number 1 ruckman at Hawthorn. He wasn’t coming to us just to be the Casey ruckman & a break-on-case-of-emergency of Gawn goes down. He was already doing that at Freo.

Hunter was a last minute opportunistic   cheap trade for the low rate hire of a former premiership player for a few years. Acres wouldn’t have come across to us on the salary we’re paying to Hunter. The reason he left Freo was because of the lowball salary offer from the dockers.

I understand frustration if you’re looking at these deals on the surface, but the detail is important.

2 hours ago, Biffen said:

My old man was a detective and nobody alive had a bad word to say about him.

I always thought you had a bit of Hercule Poirot about you from your postings.

51 minutes ago, Mach5 said:

But Meek is the number 1 ruckman at Hawthorn. He wasn’t coming to us just to be the Casey ruckman & a break-on-case-of-emergency of Gawn goes down. He was already doing that at Freo.

Hunter was a last minute opportunistic   cheap trade for the low rate hire of a former premiership player for a few years. Acres wouldn’t have come across to us on the salary we’re paying to Hunter. The reason he left Freo was because of the lowball salary offer from the dockers.

I understand frustration if you’re looking at these deals on the surface, but the detail is important.

We played with 2 rucks for the two season before we traded Jackson. We were able to convince Grundy a million dollar AA ruck that we would continue to play two rucks. 
You don’t think we could have convinced Meek- come and win and flag and learn from the greatest ruck man ever?! Who’s in his 30s.  I mean surely we could have convinced him. 
 

Arces was - F3rd pick on a three year deal for $350k. I think we could easily have brought in Meek and Arces for less than Grundy and Hunter. 
 

Edit- both these players were moved on to make Jackson deal possible. We were in the box seat if we had of made the moves. 

Edited September 24, 2024Sep 24 by Colm