New List Manager - Tim Lamb?

[Lucifers Hero 40,509]

19 hours ago, Nascent said:

In defence of Lamb, our priority was clearly re-signing our premiership team which he did well. We secured Petracca, Oliver, Pickett, JvR, Lever, Rivers, Brayshaw among others in what we hoped would keep our core team together for a long time to challenge. This can be picked apart in hindsight, in particular the Brayshaw deal and Oliver's issues, but it was clearly a well supported move that most here were happy about.

As such, we were playing on the fringes of trades with what salary cap we had left. Players left for more opportunity and we had limited salary cap with our stars signed up long term, so we scouted the fringes of teams of what we could afford. Were there other targets that could have improved our list or provided better depth, most definetely. Could we afford them from a salary cap position and did they want to come to us with best 22 spots limited and the prospect of spending the majority of time in the two's? That's another question.

The good news (sort of) is we have best 22 spots opening up on the list and salary cap space now to hopefully lure some talent. 

I usually share your views but not so much on this.

Such prioritising is a risky strategy as a number of those mentioned (Petracca, Brayshaw, Oliver) aren't available or not healthy and who knows if they will be.  There are also doubts over the ongoing fitness of Viney, Gawn and Salem.  All were/are on long-term contracts.  Unfortunately they are in our top 10 best players.

Their specific injuries/illnesses could not be foreseen but a risk analysis would show say may not play out their contract.  Known risks:  Salem and thyroid, Brayshaw and concussion , Oliver and ADHD and related issues , Gawn and age.  

 If we can only get fringe players that we can afford that suggests poor sal cap management. 

The result of such prioritising is a number of our highly paid players aren't fully available and cheap fringe players can't get a game or are subs.  Do we even have 30 players that are currently AFL standard to make up a regular 22 (exluding players yet to play a game) when we have the odd injury?

So imv our list is unbalanced for age, skill, position and depth.  I wouldn't put it all on TL but it is his job to identify trade targets and negotiate them into mfc.   Our traded in players in the last few years a rather 'meh'.

I'm not using hindsight here as in my experience risk analysis/due diligence are essential parts of any planning.  As is a risk based allocation of a $ budget.

Edited July 24, 2024 by Lucifers Hero

[Bring-Back-Powell 15,240]

2 hours ago, BangBnagBang said:

we have a second round draft pick but be disappointed if you want

Oh yes you're right. Good pick up.

The bounty we received from the Grundy trade.

I'm happy now.

[Fritta and Turner 4,675]

4 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Ergo he deserves to be Lambasted.

Well done.

[Nascent 9,320]

5 hours ago, Lucifers Hero said:

I usually share your views but not so much on this.

Such prioritising is a risky strategy as a number of those mentioned (Petracca, Brayshaw, Oliver) aren't available or not healthy and who knows if they will be.  There are also doubts over the ongoing fitness of Viney, Gawn and Salem.  All were/are on long-term contracts.  Unfortunately they are in our top 10 best players.

Their specific injuries/illnesses could not be foreseen but a risk analysis would show say may not play out their contract.  Known risks:  Salem and thyroid, Brayshaw and concussion , Oliver and ADHD and related issues , Gawn and age.  

 If we can only get fringe players that we can afford that suggests poor sal cap management. 

The result of such prioritising is a number of our highly paid players aren't fully available and cheap fringe players can't get a game or are subs.  Do we even have 30 players that are currently AFL standard to make up a regular 22 (exluding players yet to play a game) when we have the odd injury?

So imv our list is unbalanced for age, skill, position and depth.  I wouldn't put it all on TL but it is his job to identify trade targets and negotiate them into mfc.   Our traded in players in the last few years a rather 'meh'.

I'm not using hindsight here as in my experience risk analysis/due diligence are essential parts of any planning.  As is a risk based allocation of a $ budget.

Fair points, well made and can't disagree for the most part. Particularly about the players we've traded in.

There was clearly a lot of risk involved with some of our long term deals and in the context of this season we are being stung. There must also be acknowledgement of the risks of not signing up players long term, which is now a common practice. We don't offer long term deals to Oliver and Petracca then they could have very well been wearing a Blues and Pies jumper respectively.

Is 2024 a fail for the MFC in isolation for our list management team, quite probable. However, we've been provided a premiership and a top 4 list for the past 3 years which is no easy feet and in a competitive industry is well above the norm. A lot of angst on this forum in my view is coming from the perception that we have underachieved and perhaps that is true. In my opinion, we should have taken out last year's premiership and that failure lies on the players and coaches, not the list management team.

Our list is no longer the same as 2021 and we're in somewhat a state of transition.  Will our list management be a fail from 2021 - 2029 is what I'm interested in. We still have an amazing core and now room for aggressive trading and drafting. I'm holding off my judgement of our list management team for now as I believe with the right calls at the end of the year we will be right back in contention.

 

[Lucifers Hero 40,509]

33 minutes ago, Nascent said:

Fair points, well made and can't disagree for the most part. Particularly about the players we've traded in.

There was clearly a lot of risk involved with some of our long term deals and in the context of this season we are being stung. There must also be acknowledgement of the risks of not signing up players long term, which is now a common practice. We don't offer long term deals to Oliver and Petracca then they could have very well been wearing a Blues and Pies jumper respectively.

Is 2024 a fail for the MFC in isolation for our list management team, quite probable. However, we've been provided a premiership and a top 4 list for the past 3 years which is no easy feet and in a competitive industry is well above the norm. A lot of angst on this forum in my view is coming from the perception that we have underachieved and perhaps that is true. In my opinion, we should have taken out last year's premiership and that failure lies on the players and coaches, not the list management team.

Our list is no longer the same as 2021 and we're in somewhat a state of transition.  Will our list management be a fail from 2021 - 2029 is what I'm interested in. We still have an amazing core and now room for aggressive trading and drafting. I'm holding off my judgement of our list management team for now as I believe with the right calls at the end of the year we will be right back in contention.

A good summary of where we are at.  And agree about our amazing core.  I'm just worried about the recent approach of getting only who we can afford and end up with fringe players.  imv this approach needs to change asap altho tbh I don't know how; 4 years of (imv) relatively poor trading won't be easy to recover from.

I don't want to be too harsh on lamb as list management is a team effort and decisions are made within the context of the FD (Richo/Goodwin) game plan.  But TL is the one who finds and sells mfc to the candidates.

Until the end of 2020 our trading was handled by Lamb, Todd Viney and Josh Mahoney.  I find it difficult to understand how we have not attracted any B+/A level players since they left, while we were the reigning and recent premiers.  I feel we are missing the negotiation skills of the latter two and the less tangible gravitas they brought.  And perhaps their administration skills when it came to sal cap managment.

Edited July 24, 2024 by Lucifers Hero

[spirit of norm smith 16,615]

1 hour ago, Lucifers Hero said:

A good summary of where we are at.  And agree about our amazing core.  I'm just worried about the recent approach of getting only who we can afford and end up with fringe players.  imv this approach needs to change asap altho tbh I don't know how; 4 years of (imv) relatively poor trading won't be easy to recover from.

I don't want to be too harsh on lamb as list management is a team effort and decisions are made within the context of the FD (Richo/Goodwin) game plan.  But TL is the one who finds and sells mfc to the candidates.

Until the end of 2020 our trading was handled by Lamb, Todd Viney and Josh Mahoney.  I find it difficult to understand how we have not attracted any B+/A level players since they left, while we were the reigning and recent premiers.  I feel we are missing the negotiation skills of the latter two and the less tangible gravitas they brought.  And perhaps their administration skills when it came to sal cap managment.

Agree that we cannot underestimate the contribution of Todd Viney and Mahoney ( who brought in Lever, Melksham , Hibberd, May, Langdon, Tomlinson, Brown). 

[BrisbaneDemon 1,574]

Can we trade Lamb for Sydney’s list manager? Swans have done a fantastic job (helped by the academy) but the pieces they have added has been a masterstroke (with depth might I add).

[beelzebub 23,390]

14 hours ago, Nascent said:

Fair points, well made and can't disagree for the most part. Particularly about the players we've traded in.

There was clearly a lot of risk involved with some of our long term deals and in the context of this season we are being stung. There must also be acknowledgement of the risks of not signing up players long term, which is now a common practice. We don't offer long term deals to Oliver and Petracca then they could have very well been wearing a Blues and Pies jumper respectively.

Is 2024 a fail for the MFC in isolation for our list management team, quite probable. However, we've been provided a premiership and a top 4 list for the past 3 years which is no easy feet and in a competitive industry is well above the norm. A lot of angst on this forum in my view is coming from the perception that we have underachieved and perhaps that is true. In my opinion, we should have taken out last year's premiership and that failure lies on the players and coaches, not the list management team.

Our list is no longer the same as 2021 and we're in somewhat a state of transition.  Will our list management be a fail from 2021 - 2029 is what I'm interested in. We still have an amazing core and now room for aggressive trading and drafting. I'm holding off my judgement of our list management team for now as I believe with the right calls at the end of the year we will be right back in contention.

 

Perception we've underachieved ???

No.... the REALITY  is we have underachieved. 

That's from where the angst arises and rightly so.

In case it's escaped anyone's notice....we are trending DOWN .

You suggest right calls at season's end. What are those and how would they so dramatically reverse our fortunes ?

Genuinely interested.

[Nascent 9,320]

5 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Perception we've underachieved ???

No.... the REALITY  is we have underachieved. 

That's from where the angst arises and rightly so.

In case it's escaped anyone's notice....we are trending DOWN .

You suggest right calls at season's end. What are those and how would they so dramatically reverse our fortunes ?

Genuinely interested.

I agree we've underachieved. 2023 should have been ours.

But that shouldn't take away from what we have achieved and what the likes of the Lions, Power, Swans, Blues, GWS can only hope for. A premiership and multiple top 4 finishes.

This is the type of success we could only dream of back in 2014.

Does that mean I'm happy with where we are right now, of course not. We need to be doing everything in our power to maximise and compliment the talent we have on our list now.

As to what that looks like in terms of the "right calls..." I wish I had the answers for that.

Covering off holes in the list with best 22 talent is a starting point. Is Houston, Cumming, some draftees and a back up ruck part of the solution? Looks like a good starting point to me.

Does our coaching group need review with perhaps new staff and ideas coming in? 

Does the gameplan need further refining without moving so far away from contest and defence with which we struggled earlier on this year.

There's no simple answer and multiple things have to be done right to achieve success. And the reality is we might not know how successful our post 2024 moves are for a few years as well. Take the introduction of Lever and May as an example, we don't win a premiership without them yet it took a few years after acquiring them and the tension around losing Hogan and two first round picks was palpable. All I can say is strap yourself in and enjoy the ride while we are still competitive, you never know when we might suffer again like the current Roos, West Coast and us of 2008-14.

 

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,302]

23 minutes ago, Nascent said:

I agree we've underachieved. 2023 should have been ours.

But that shouldn't take away from what we have achieved and what the likes of the Lions, Power, Swans, Blues, GWS can only hope for. A premiership and multiple top 4 finishes.

This is the type of success we could only dream of back in 2014.

Does that mean I'm happy with where we are right now, of course not. We need to be doing everything in our power to maximise and compliment the talent we have on our list now.

As to what that looks like in terms of the "right calls..." I wish I had the answers for that.

Covering off holes in the list with best 22 talent is a starting point. Is Houston, Cumming, some draftees and a back up ruck part of the solution? Looks like a good starting point to me.

Does our coaching group need review with perhaps new staff and ideas coming in? 

Does the gameplan need further refining without moving so far away from contest and defence with which we struggled earlier on this year.

There's no simple answer and multiple things have to be done right to achieve success. And the reality is we might not know how successful our post 2024 moves are for a few years as well. Take the introduction of Lever and May as an example, we don't win a premiership without them yet it took a few years after acquiring them and the tension around losing Hogan and two first round picks was palpable. All I can say is strap yourself in and enjoy the ride while we are still competitive, you never know when we might suffer again like the current Roos, West Coast and us of 2008-14.

 

 

There is a fairly simple answer to this. 
When players leave the Club, particularly those who are still contracted. 
Don’t replace them with players who can’t get a Senior game and don’t extend contracts of these same players. 
We have traded downwards since ‘21 

[DeeSpencer 26,269]

I think we need a proper review of the footy department and as members deserve to know what the budget has been spent on.

Since the covid cuts we’ve gone from 2 head of footballs (Mahoney and Richardson) to 1, haven’t added any permanent coaching staff (teams used to have 4+ assistants and multiple development coaches, we have 3, Choco and I think Sam Radford) and there’s been no announcement on beefing up the recruiting or fitness teams.

Pro Scout is still listed as Kelly O’Donnell despite the fact we haven’t added anyone decent from the state leagues since Mitch Hannan. And haven’t landed a good trade since Langdon in the ‘19 trade period.

In 2021 we had a fitness edge, a game plan edge and a drafting and list management edge to build the list.

Now I’d say we still have drafting edge. I still believe in Goody but there’s strong case to change the coaching panel. Fitness is lacking. List management is mess.

Should Richo go? Should Lamb go? I don’t know, I don’t like calling for peoples jobs without all the facts. But I’d like to know what the club is investing in and how they expect better results.

[Satyriconhome 10,880]

So, we must have lost last weekend.

[DubDee 26,302]

19 hours ago, BrisbaneDemon said:

Can we trade Lamb for Sydney’s list manager? Swans have done a fantastic job (helped by the academy) but the pieces they have added has been a masterstroke (with depth might I add).

Without the academies (no Heeney, Blakey, Gulden, Mills etc) they wouldn't even be in the top 8. Easy to be a good list manager with the best talent coming in all the time

[DubDee 26,302]

2 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

There is a fairly simple answer to this. 
When players leave the Club, particularly those who are still contracted. 
Don’t replace them with players who can’t get a Senior game and don’t extend contracts of these same players. 
We have traded downwards since ‘21 

I believe we have traded in as well as we could have.

When fringe players want to leave you cannot force them to stay. 

I really don't see any lessons to be learned here.

[Moonshadow 17,678]

3 hours ago, Nascent said:

I agree we've underachieved. 2023 should have been ours.

But that shouldn't take away from what we have achieved and what the likes of the Lions, Power, Swans, Blues, GWS can only hope for. A premiership and multiple top 4 finishes.

This is the type of success we could only dream of back in 2014.

Does that mean I'm happy with where we are right now, of course not. We need to be doing everything in our power to maximise and compliment the talent we have on our list now.

As to what that looks like in terms of the "right calls..." I wish I had the answers for that.

Covering off holes in the list with best 22 talent is a starting point. Is Houston, Cumming, some draftees and a back up ruck part of the solution? Looks like a good starting point to me.

Does our coaching group need review with perhaps new staff and ideas coming in? 

Does the gameplan need further refining without moving so far away from contest and defence with which we struggled earlier on this year.

There's no simple answer and multiple things have to be done right to achieve success. And the reality is we might not know how successful our post 2024 moves are for a few years as well. Take the introduction of Lever and May as an example, we don't win a premiership without them yet it took a few years after acquiring them and the tension around losing Hogan and two first round picks was palpable. All I can say is strap yourself in and enjoy the ride while we are still competitive, you never know when we might suffer again like the current Roos, West Coast and us of 2008-14.

 

 

Even this year the flag is there for the taking.

Up to 10 teams could finish top 4 atm, and the unpredictable results indicate anyone can win it if they finish off H&A well. We've had our chances and failed miserably, eg. WCE in Perth

We've failed to address key areas of need since 2021. Key forward/s, mids that can kick well, ruck depth. That's on Lamb, but also on the FD as a whole, especially Goody.

After 2021 many outside the club expected a dynasty and several flags with the list we had. What a waste!

Edited July 25, 2024 by Moonshadow

[beelzebub 23,390]

1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

So, we must have lost last weekend.

Yes Sandra 

[Sir Why You Little 37,302]

1 hour ago, DubDee said:

I believe we have traded in as well as we could have.

When fringe players want to leave you cannot force them to stay. 

I really don't see any lessons to be learned here.

So you accept mediocrity. 

[Jibroni 5,035]

39 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Even this year the flag is there for the taking.

Up to 10 teams could finish top 4 atm, and the unpredictable results indicate anyone can win it if they finish off H&A well. We've had our chances and failed miserably, eg. WCE in Perth

We've failed to address key areas of need since 2021. Key forward/s, mids that can kick well, ruck depth. That's on Lamb, but also on the FD as a whole, especially Goody.

After 2021 many outside the club expected a dynasty and several flags with the list we had. What a waste!

 

- We tried with Grundy but apart from Meek or Goldstein I dont know who else was available?

- We have drafted Jefferson but there are no Tom Lynch's available atm.

- Apart from Billings and Fullarton most of our trades have provided a net positive (ie: Langdon, Tomlinson, Ben Brown).

[DubDee 26,302]

24 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

So you accept mediocrity. 

I accept reality

[jnrmac 20,272]

Some people on here have zero idea on how hard it is to trade for other players.

'oh we didn't we get such and such' is such an easy, lame, BS line to say.

It's hard. The club talks to dozens of players and managers every month of the year 

Convincing players to come to our club is not easy. First they have to be available and gettable, And fitting them into the list based on cap, age, profile etc is an incredibly difficult task. Then you need the picks to be able to get them. 

The club could do better but they have done a good job. 

 

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,302]

24 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Some people on here have zero idea on how hard it is to trade for other players.

'oh we didn't we get such and such' is such an easy, lame, BS line to say.

It's hard. The club talks to dozens of players and managers every month of the year 

Convincing players to come to our club is not easy. First they have to be available and gettable, And fitting them into the list based on cap, age, profile etc is an incredibly difficult task. Then you need the picks to be able to get them. 

The club could do better but they have done a good job. 

 

 

Signing Grundy for 4 years and then giving up after 6 months. 

Josh Schache and Tom Fullarton as replacements 

billings for Jordan 

Letting go of Bedford…. (I was angry at the time, i knew he would become an very good player)

I think our trading since the Flag has been a big F

[Satyriconhome 10,880]

2 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Yes Sandra 

Thanks Vanessa, can always tell when we have lost, all the highly experienced coaches and list managers/recruiters start pontificating on here.

[Dee Boys 851]

5 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

There is a fairly simple answer to this. 
When players leave the Club, particularly those who are still contracted. 
Don’t replace them with players who can’t get a Senior game and don’t extend contracts of these same players. 
We have traded downwards since ‘21 

God this is overly simplistic rubbish. When you win a premiership a couple of things happen. 

1) You need to reward these premiership players. Stands to reason that they’ve had great seasons and deserve to be paid well for it. This then takes up a good chunk of your salary cap. We’ve got some of the best players in the club’s history playing for us at the moment. They want, and deserve, to be paid as such.

2) Other teams come calling for your fringe players. This happens with every successful team. Look at the players Richmond and Hawthorn had to let go during their eras of success. We’re not alone in not being able to match the offers from less successful clubs while in win flag mode.

Because of point 1, there’s not a heap of money left to attract A grade talent from other clubs. All you can do is hope to replace your backups with equally good backups. But you’re trying to do this while only being able to offer minimum wage.

I’m not saying Tim Lamb is above criticism but expecting us to be able to have a list of 40+ excellent league footballers - 20 of which are happy to play VFL - while keeping all their salaries under the salary cap, is incredibly naive. 
 

[Sir Why You Little 37,302]

18 minutes ago, Dee Boys said:

God this is overly simplistic rubbish. When you win a premiership a couple of things happen. 

1) You need to reward these premiership players. Stands to reason that they’ve had great seasons and deserve to be paid well for it. This then takes up a good chunk of your salary cap. We’ve got some of the best players in the club’s history playing for us at the moment. They want, and deserve, to be paid as such.

2) Other teams come calling for your fringe players. This happens with every successful team. Look at the players Richmond and Hawthorn had to let go during their eras of success. We’re not alone in not being able to match the offers from less successful clubs while in win flag mode.

Because of point 1, there’s not a heap of money left to attract A grade talent from other clubs. All you can do is hope to replace your backups with equally good backups. But you’re trying to do this while only being able to offer minimum wage.

I’m not saying Tim Lamb is above criticism but expecting us to be able to have a list of 40+ excellent league footballers - 20 of which are happy to play VFL - while keeping all their salaries under the salary cap, is incredibly naive. 
 

All fair points.
I am not saying it’s easy, but i do expect to recruit players who are at an AFL Level and at this point in time that hasn’t been happening. 
Some of our fringe players you speak of are still playing for us, whilst those that have left have done very well, so the system we have is not working well at all. 
Now the odd player is going to slip through the net, i get that. But this has been a serious problem at the MFC since the Flag

[kozzyisalegend 152]

6 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

There is a fairly simple answer to this. 
When players leave the Club, particularly those who are still contracted. 
Don’t replace them with players who can’t get a Senior game and don’t extend contracts of these same players. 
We have traded downwards since ‘21 

Hawthorn have recruited massimo dambrisio, Jack ginnivan and mabior chol. All very good players who were cheap, were playing vfl and were up for grabs. The failure to talk to them is a disgrace