Farewell Sam Frost

[Yokozuna 1,004]

1 hour ago, praha said:

I think the point is binman is that it would be more worthwhile looking to trade Oscar for some value, maybe late 2nd round, and then re-sign Frost, rather than to let Frost walk. 

This is shocking list management no matter how you look at it. Especially if we fail to land Elliot and are forced to overpay a spud like Tomlinson to get our cap space filled.

It may be worthwhile to trade Oscar, but you need another team to want him, and if he is as bad as everyone says he is, who would we trade him too? And if we did trade him, no way is it for a second rounder.

the reason Oscar got a contract was because he actually had a strong year in 2018 and many of you were possibly talking of his improvement and development!

Things do change very quickly in football.

People jumping up and down about losing frost when many had him out of our best side at the start of last year, and although he had a strong year, he still has the same problems why many didn’t like him prior to this season.

And calling Tomlinson a dud, there is a reason he has been chased for the last four or so years, and it’s not cos he is no good!

 

 

 

[demoniac 1,333]

11 hours ago, Pates said:

What I find the most puzzling of this whole thing is that we apparently haven't offered him a contract. If he was leaving because the Hawks offered more money/longer contract than I wouldn't be as concerned but the fact that we are letting him walk out the door without putting anything on the table (especially after signing up OMac) just seems to be mystifying to me.

The one positive out of this is that there will be no chance of a Frost/OMac combination with honestly gave me nightmares.

Mahoney has made it clear that told Frost/Manager what our contract offer terms would be and Frost/Manager indicated our proposed terms were less than what Hawks were offering.

[demoniac 1,333]

10 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

Frost is better than average and he is better than Tomlinson. Tomlinson going to be played on the wing anyway he's not a key back.

Petty will have to go back when he looked so good as a forward. I can't believe he said we have depth down back Oscar is not depth he is a clogger. Mahoney has been a dud. 17th on the ladder remember. You are underselling Frost it is a bad move to let him go.

Frost is better than average at chase down tackles, running and carrying. 

Frost is worse than average at choosing and executing right decision with ball in hand, one on one versus a key forward.

A metres gained player who turns the ball over.

A key defender who struggles one on one with positioning and body work against key forwards.

[old55 23,548]

2 hours ago, praha said:

 

This is shocking list management no matter how you look at it. Especially if we fail to land Elliot and are forced to overpay a spud like Tomlinson to get our cap space filled.

I don't think you're thought this through. If we were short of meeting the minimum cap we'd front load Tomlinson's contract and therefore free up cap space in future years, he would like this too and it would be good management. 

We would not as you are suggesting increase every year of his contract so we meet the minimum cap in the first year.

[Redleg 40,895]

This would send DL into meltdown. Frost cleared to Hawks tomorrow at 9.05am and nothing happens for players reportedly coming to us for a few days.

[binman 42,903]

3 hours ago, praha said:

I think the point is binman is that it would be more worthwhile looking to trade Oscar for some value, maybe late 2nd round, and then re-sign Frost, rather than to let Frost walk. 

This is shocking list management no matter how you look at it. Especially if we fail to land Elliot and are forced to overpay a spud like Tomlinson to get our cap space filled.

Totally disagree. Trading frost now is smart list management as his stocks will never be higher. He is an average AFL player and if we could a mid second round draft pick for him they'll run like they stole something

 Omac on the other hand has no trade value atm and they would have to possibly pay some of contract. 

And besides i know I am in the minority here but I rate omac the better defender, for exactly the reason deanix notes in his excellent post above (and a previous similar one) frost is clueless when it comes to playing his role in a system and is add he will never be a natural defender. 

I know some posters seriously believe they know more about a player's ability and potential role in rhe team than tge professionals at a club in a billion dollar national competition. But for the sake of argument let's pretend they don't. And ask the question - why have they decided frost is expendable?

[spirit of norm smith 16,443]

What will hawks give us ?  Pick 30 ?? 

Tim O’Brien might be discussed. 

[Adam The God 30,221]

13 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

What will hawks give us ?  Pick 30 ?? 

Tim O’Brien might be discussed. 

Yuck. I hope not.

[ignition. 1,466]

The idiocy of this club to move Frost on is beyond me.

You keep good players, even if you see them as depth. It's not like he's asking for the farm. He's locked down opposition forwards time and time again. He's better than May, while Lever fits best as the third intercept tall (e.g. behind Talia and Hartigan). That's IF they're all fit. Then we have the medium- and small-sized defenders such as Hibberd, Hore, Jetta, and Salem. With that said Hibberd and Jetta only have a few years left anyway.

It simply baffles me. Over the last few years we've re-signed sub-par, depth-at-best players like ANB, Stretch, O. McDonald (he's not even VFL standard), Hannan, JKH, Spargo and Wagner (#1 & #2, don't get me started).

Sounds like Mahoney's at it again. Will bend over week one. Then get pushed around by Freo's Bell and who knows who else. Then spin some PR nonsense that they wen't well "overall' / looking at the whole trade period. When yet these list management hypocrites (Goodwin included) challenge the players on every single action they do.

[censored] this club sometimes, or at least the morons in it.

  

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

41 minutes ago, ignition. said:

The idiocy of this club to move Frost on is beyond me.

You keep good players, even if you see them as depth. It's not like he's asking for the farm. He's locked down opposition forwards time and time again. He's better than May, while Lever fits best as the third intercept tall (e.g. behind Talia and Hartigan). That's IF they're all fit. Then we have the medium- and small-sized defenders such as Hibberd, Hore, Jetta, and Salem. With that said Hibberd and Jetta only have a few years left anyway.

It simply baffles me. Over the last few years we've re-signed sub-par, depth-at-best players like ANB, Stretch, O. McDonald (he's not even VFL standard), Hannan, JKH, Spargo and Wagner (#1 & #2, don't get me started).

Sounds like Mahoney's at it again. Will bend over week one. Then get pushed around by Freo's Bell and who knows who else. Then spin some PR nonsense that they wen't well "overall' / looking at the whole trade period. When yet these list management hypocrites (Goodwin included) challenge the players on every single action they do.

[censored] this club sometimes, or at least the morons in it.

  

Disagree strongly on many points.

To state that Sam Frost is better than May is quite baffling.

Edited October 6, 2019 by stevethemanjordan

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

2 hours ago, Redleg said:

This would send DL into meltdown. Frost cleared to Hawks tomorrow at 9.05am and nothing happens for players reportedly coming to us for a few days.

Isn't Frosty odds on favourite for the 2020 Brownlow or have I been reading the wrong thread?

 

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

2 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

What will hawks give us ?  Pick 30 ?? 

Tim O’Brien might be discussed. 

Hawks don't have to give us anything - Frost is a free agent

[Demonstone 22,490]

Frosty isn't a free agent.

[Adam The God 30,221]

2 hours ago, ignition. said:

The idiocy of this club to move Frost on is beyond me.

You keep good players, even if you see them as depth. It's not like he's asking for the farm. He's locked down opposition forwards time and time again. He's better than May, while Lever fits best as the third intercept tall (e.g. behind Talia and Hartigan). That's IF they're all fit. Then we have the medium- and small-sized defenders such as Hibberd, Hore, Jetta, and Salem. With that said Hibberd and Jetta only have a few years left anyway.

It simply baffles me. Over the last few years we've re-signed sub-par, depth-at-best players like ANB, Stretch, O. McDonald (he's not even VFL standard), Hannan, JKH, Spargo and Wagner (#1 & #2, don't get me started).

Sounds like Mahoney's at it again. Will bend over week one. Then get pushed around by Freo's Bell and who knows who else. Then spin some PR nonsense that they wen't well "overall' / looking at the whole trade period. When yet these list management hypocrites (Goodwin included) challenge the players on every single action they do.

[censored] this club sometimes, or at least the morons in it.

  

Anything that enables you to [censored] on the club. Let's bookmark this shall we? Let's bet that Frost won't earn another contract at Hawthorn. They're desperately fishing and it says more about them than us to be honest. 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

9 minutes ago, A F said:

Anything that enables you to [censored] on the club. Let's bookmark this shall we? Let's bet that Frost won't earn another contract at Hawthorn. They're desperately fishing and it says more about them than us to be honest. 

Here's the thing with Frost that I think our bias (and I mean that in a good way) gets in the way of:

Over the past few seasons we've recruited quite heavily in our back half.  Hibberd, Lever and May have all been brought it in at a pretty decent cost, and it was clear that guys like Oscar and Frost were viewed as nothing more than depth players.  Why else would we have gone on such a recruitment drive in our defence?  If we believed those two were the future then we would have backed them in.  Recruiting those three over the past few seasons is evidence of the fact that we didn't.

However, with injuries, Frost stood up in defence and had a pretty darn good season.  Nothing wrong with that and, at times, he really did some good stuff.  Other times... not so much.  But in such a horror season he stuck out like dogs balls with his run and dash and his ability, at times, to play very well on key forwards.

Because of this season, he is asking for a very big pay rise, which the club refuses to meet and with good reason.  Our first choice back line doesn't include him, and he is asking for money that would indicate that he is a key cog in our backline.  There is nothing wrong with him asking for that money based off this season, but there is nothing wrong with the club putting what they think is a fair contract on the table either.  Obviously there is a gap there and he looked elsewhere to see what he could get.  The Hawks have obviously offered him better terms, or he sees the Hawks as an opportunity to play AFL footy regularly as opposed to potentially spending more time at Casey in 2020.

The club would be making a bad decision paying big bucks to a bloke who not only has his flaws, but also doesn't fit in our best 22.  We can't sign blokes to big dollars in case we have a few injuries - Oscar and Petty are more than capable of coming in where needed and they're being paid far, far less to do it.

The club is well within it's rights to do what it has done, just as Frosty is.  If he leaves and we can get a pick out of it in the second round then I won't be complaining.

[Hunt29 275]

The club is looking like they are going to back in Burgess to get May and Lever up and running. 

Also Hawthorn seemingly value Frost more than us. I like Frost but we can be easily seduced by Frost Ball. But he’s too much of a liability by foot. He needs to be contained somewhat. Maybe hawks more confident of doing this. Hopefully hawks give us more than a token pick. 

[Adam The God 30,221]

44 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Here's the thing with Frost that I think our bias (and I mean that in a good way) gets in the way of:

Over the past few seasons we've recruited quite heavily in our back half.  Hibberd, Lever and May have all been brought it in at a pretty decent cost, and it was clear that guys like Oscar and Frost were viewed as nothing more than depth players.  Why else would we have gone on such a recruitment drive in our defence?  If we believed those two were the future then we would have backed them in.  Recruiting those three over the past few seasons is evidence of the fact that we didn't.

However, with injuries, Frost stood up in defence and had a pretty darn good season.  Nothing wrong with that and, at times, he really did some good stuff.  Other times... not so much.  But in such a horror season he stuck out like dogs balls with his run and dash and his ability, at times, to play very well on key forwards.

Because of this season, he is asking for a very big pay rise, which the club refuses to meet and with good reason.  Our first choice back line doesn't include him, and he is asking for money that would indicate that he is a key cog in our backline.  There is nothing wrong with him asking for that money based off this season, but there is nothing wrong with the club putting what they think is a fair contract on the table either.  Obviously there is a gap there and he looked elsewhere to see what he could get.  The Hawks have obviously offered him better terms, or he sees the Hawks as an opportunity to play AFL footy regularly as opposed to potentially spending more time at Casey in 2020.

The club would be making a bad decision paying big bucks to a bloke who not only has his flaws, but also doesn't fit in our best 22.  We can't sign blokes to big dollars in case we have a few injuries - Oscar and Petty are more than capable of coming in where needed and they're being paid far, far less to do it.

The club is well within it's rights to do what it has done, just as Frosty is.  If he leaves and we can get a pick out of it in the second round then I won't be complaining.

I still believe we told him to explore his options and didn't offer him a contract.

We probably told him he'd be on the fringe and be on minimum dollars, playing some time at Casey and despite not wanting to leave, Frosty had no alternative but to explore his options.

Hawthorn have probably said, yep, we'll take you on. We like your dash and we need some defensive reinforcement, and we'll back ourselves in to use your attributes for good.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, A F said:

I still believe we told him to explore his options and didn't offer him a contract.

We probably told him he'd be on the fringe and be on minimum dollars, playing some time at Casey and despite not wanting to leave, Frosty had no alternative but to explore his options.

Hawthorn have probably said, yep, we'll take you on. We like your dash and we need some defensive reinforcement, and we'll back ourselves in to use your attributes for good.

You could well be right.  That still fits with what Mahoney said - they discussed with him what we believed a contract from us might look like (which would be predicated on how the trade period goes) and encouraged him to explore his options if he wasn't a fan of what we were offering.  

Frosty has done nothing wrong with exploring those options, but I also believe the club has done nothing wrong either.  It's not as if we're letting Frost go and we have no one else.  We actually have his position more than covered and we may also look to add another tall from the draft as well.

[Adam The God 30,221]

40 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

You could well be right.  That still fits with what Mahoney said - they discussed with him what we believed a contract from us might look like (which would be predicated on how the trade period goes) and encouraged him to explore his options if he wasn't a fan of what we were offering.  

Frosty has done nothing wrong with exploring those options, but I also believe the club has done nothing wrong either.  It's not as if we're letting Frost go and we have no one else.  We actually have his position more than covered and we may also look to add another tall from the draft as well.

I agree. This is how it all works now. Frosty might be miffed we don't rate him higher after his season, but we've still paid him for a couple of contracts now and he's really been a fringe player throughout all that time.

In time, if he's a realistic man, he'll see that we developed him and simply cashed in when his value was its highest, because we wanted to play a different defensive system to the one he would best fit.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,817]

18 minutes ago, Hunt29 said:

Hopefully hawks give us more than a token pick. 

I wouldn’t hold my breath.

[jnrmac 20,059]

10 hours ago, Yokozuna said:

It may be worthwhile to trade Oscar, but you need another team to want him, and if he is as bad as everyone says he is, who would we trade him too? And if we did trade him, no way is it for a second rounder.

the reason Oscar got a contract was because he actually had a strong year in 2018 and many of you were possibly talking of his improvement and development!

Things do change very quickly in football.

People jumping up and down about losing frost when many had him out of our best side at the start of last year, and although he had a strong year, he still has the same problems why many didn’t like him prior to this season.

And calling Tomlinson a dud, there is a reason he has been chased for the last four or so years, and it’s not cos he is no good!

 

 

 

SAM FROST’S 2019 AVERAGES

Disposals: 13.5

Marks: 4.3

Metres gained: 224

Intercept marks: 1.7

Intercept possessions: 7

OSCAR MCDONALD’S 2019 AVERAGES

Disposals: 8.9

Marks: 2.6

Metres gained: 125

Intercept marks: 0.3

Intercept possessions: 3.4

[jnrmac 20,059]

6 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Here's the thing with Frost that I think our bias (and I mean that in a good way) gets in the way of:

Over the past few seasons we've recruited quite heavily in our back half.  Hibberd, Lever and May have all been brought it in at a pretty decent cost, and it was clear that guys like Oscar and Frost were viewed as nothing more than depth players.  Why else would we have gone on such a recruitment drive in our defence?  If we believed those two were the future then we would have backed them in.  Recruiting those three over the past few seasons is evidence of the fact that we didn't.

 

Someone hack your account?

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 minute ago, jnrmac said:

Someone hack your account?

I feel like I've said that for a while now. 

[binman 42,903]

6 hours ago, Hunt29 said:

The club is looking like they are going to back in Burgess to get May and Lever up and running. 

Also Hawthorn seemingly value Frost more than us. I like Frost but we can be easily seduced by Frost Ball. But he’s too much of a liability by foot. He needs to be contained somewhat. Maybe hawks more confident of doing this. Hopefully hawks give us more than a token pick. 

The hawks have more average or above average kicks than us so the impact of frost is less for us than them.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,388]

1 minute ago, binman said:

The hawks have more average or above average kicks than us so the impact of frost is less for us than them.

Exactly, yet so much discussion is centred around Frost’s disposal and his run and carry which often results in turning the ball over. We should also be discussing a replacement for Hibberd and Salem taking the game on more and becoming more attacking.