I'll just leave this one here. 

Not one to normally get too negative. But if Brayshaw and the coaches are happy with his defensive efforts this year they are kidding themselves. One of our worst two way runners who just gives up the chase far too easily.

Would be astounded if that's the "team first" attitude his fellow players want.

2 minutes ago, Good Lord George said:

Not one to normally get too negative. But if Brayshaw and the coaches are happy with his defensive efforts this year they are kidding themselves. One of our worst two way runners who just gives up the chase far too easily.

Would be astounded if that's the "team first" attitude his fellow players want.

In fairness he wasn't alone. It was a trade mark of all of our mids this year.

1 minute ago, Unleash Hell said:

In fairness he wasn't alone. It was a trade mark of all of our mids this year.

I agree, but it seems he doesn't see it that way. 

Likely just a puff piece to fill space in the off-season, but they are way off the mark if this is how they saw his year. His defensive efforts were far from the highlight of his year.

That is a mind blowing read, if anyone is happy with  what Brayshaw dished up this year then they should get out of the game,  most of his efforts were half hearted, he had zero responsibility for how his disposal went in a contested situation (wasn't alone there) and 2 way running..  more like two  wayS of running - slow and not fast .

Its an awful article and a bit insulting.

Just now, Good Lord George said:

I agree, but it seems he doesn't see it that way. 

Likely just a puff piece to fill space in the off-season, but they are way off the mark if this is how they saw his year. His defensive efforts were far from the highlight of his year.

100% agree

I haven't read the article yet, but imo this year was a completely different game style to last year and the players had to learn to adapt on the run, hence the reference to the learnings I expect. The other big problem imo was the new game style required a higher level of fitness which our complete list lacked. Its great having young talent but the downside is they are inexperienced at new styles and roles.

I am hoping this year was a massive learning curve for all of the boys, but I agree with your sentiment overall. I was just thinking it was a bit harsh to blame just Gus when it was a failing of mids as a whole.

12 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

100% agree

I haven't read the article yet, but imo this year was a completely different game style to last year and the players had to learn to adapt on the run, hence the reference to the learnings I expect. The other big problem imo was the new game style required a higher level of fitness which our complete list lacked. Its great having young talent but the downside is they are inexperienced at new styles and roles.

I am hoping this year was a massive learning curve for all of the boys, but I agree with your sentiment overall. I was just thinking it was a bit harsh to blame just Gus when it was a failing of mids as a whole.

I agree with all of this. Worth having a read of the article; the reason Gus was singled out is because the whole thing is about him  spending the year working on his defensive side, how this doesn't show up in stats but he was happy with his efforts and so are his teammates. 

I hope Burgess is able to make some big in roads this pre-season, but the boys have got to want it too. I suppose we'll see if they do.

Edited September 3, 20195 yr by Good Lord George

36 minutes ago, Demonland said:

I'll just leave this one here. 

My dog often says that on his morning walks.  And proud of it.

I get the impression the MFC thinks it’s all just going to happen again

Mind Blowing really and i hope i am wrong

But the whole teams 2 way running in 2019 was atrocious compared to other teams...

24 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

100% agree

I haven't read the article yet, but imo this year was a completely different game style to last year and the players had to learn to adapt on the run, hence the reference to the learnings I expect. The other big problem imo was the new game style required a higher level of fitness which our complete list lacked. Its great having young talent but the downside is they are inexperienced at new styles and roles.

I am hoping this year was a massive learning curve for all of the boys, but I agree with your sentiment overall. I was just thinking it was a bit harsh to blame just Gus when it was a failing of mids as a whole.

If they had to learn it on the run then its a red flag for our coaching and football department. It should have been drill'd in over and over again. 

And i might be one out here, but there was a new game style? i didnt see it? two way running isnta new game style, its just what is expected in a football side.. any football side, apparently not ours.

I for one welcome our new communications minister to the club.

5 minutes ago, Demon3 said:

If they had to learn it on the run then its a red flag for our coaching and football department. It should have been drill'd in over and over again. 

And i might be one out here, but there was a new game style? i didnt see it? two way running isnta new game style, its just what is expected in a football side.. any football side, apparently not ours.

At the risk of flogging a dead horse our shocking preseason prevented drilling in things over and over gain. Introducing new systems require all team availability for a high proportion of training sessions. Goodwin acknowledged that perhaps he overreached in terms of trying to implement new systems. 

That same disrupted preseason is the reason why we were not fit enough (and Lewis has said pointedly that some, presumably young players didn't come back fit enough, which if true would not have helped).

On new game style we absolutely tried to implement a more chip and hold system. This was particularly evident after the bye. it perplexes me that so many DL posters don't seem to have noticed this. Of course all game styles require two way running but this approach requires multiple players offering multiple leads and options when their team has the ball. And when they don't multiple players running to cover outlet kicks. Together that demands huge aerobic fitness - and i said we newer got fit enough. It is for this reason that we got smashed in last quarters so regularly. We ran out of gas and couldn't stop the switch and run it out of defence style teams like WC are so good at.

The interesting thing about this game style is i reckon it is one that is built for the home and away season. Contested ball is still super important but the keeping of style means there are less collisions (and much to the chagrin of the AFL less scoring opportunities - hard to score when you kick 4 or 5 times across you half back flank and then chip it slowly down the ground) and therefore hopefully less contact injuries and not as hard for players to get up and recover week after week. Very taxing aerobically but less physical toll.  

More than ever we have two different seasons. Home and Away and Finals. I suspect that this finals we will see much less chip and hold, quicker ball movement, an emphasis on getting it forward, high presssure around the ball, more big contests and the sort of game the dees played last year because in most games there is no tomorrow.  This suits teams like the Tigers, Giants and bullies i reckon.

4 minutes ago, Demon3 said:

If they had to learn it on the run then its a red flag for our coaching and football department. It should have been drill'd in over and over again. 

And i might be one out here, but there was a new game style? i didnt see it? two way running isnta new game style, its just what is expected in a football side.. any football side, apparently not ours.

I've gone over this in the - is Goodwin the right guy thread.

But put simply, yes it was a massive f up. 2019 as a whole was a massive f up.

Most people don't agree with me, but our stoppage, high press based game from 2018 was completely void in the 2019 version of the game. We were required to run more and to put it simply we couldn't. We were either injured, unfit or too slow.

I am no expert nor do I claim to be 100% correct, but my observation were that teams (the good ones for 2019) are the ones who organised well defensively behind the ball and rebounded well from turnover and defence. There are some otherr teams like the lions have offsensive flair, speed and a strong midfield. Teams that can run and carry from defence or create turnovers form pressing back defensively have been the most successful this year, and if you had to summarise our year we couldn't defend or score in 2019.

The ball was in motion more in 2019, there were less stoppages and lack of stoppages took away Gawn and our mds strengths. We won our fair share of the ball but butchered it often. When we butchered it we had to run to defend and we weren't fit enough or fast enough to stop teams. 

For whatever the reason (lack of speed, injuries, lack of skill, poor structure or all of the above).we lacked organisation and the ability to execute. if you don't believe me go and rewatch the opening rounds where we tried to press and lock the ball in our F50 like in 2018 but continually turned it over and were unable to defend teams on the rebound. All year teams torched us when we turned the ball over, it didn't matter what the structure was, there was no pressure on the ball carriers and teams picked through the lack of pressure and scored easily. I think I looked at roughly round 12 and we were worse then GC defensively.

When we did go ultra defensive we couldn't score - it was a really bad year. We simply didn't have the fitness, skill or structure to compete in 2019. Hence why the game plan changed on the run - think back to the mid season break and the clubs restructure, we all knew the style wasn't working. Once the game plan evolved to match to what was evolving in the game our season was already over. Our players were not conditioned to play that way and we battled with injury and form all year. Hence the article above, we got smashed in most areas of the game.

You can point fingers at whoever you like, the players, the coaches, the club itself and even the supports have gotten a mention. its all been raised and discussed elsewhere.

You can do all the finger pointing you want Im interested in what they do to fix it. The article above is an indication they've addressed some issues - us Demonlanders won't really ever know the inside story but I think its a good sign.

Like I've said in the is Goodwin the right guy thread - I don't necessarily think a new coach would solve all of these issues from the 2019 failings. I think club stability and the overall plan are the most important for success, but I do agree win loss is important as well, it can't be ignored. So 2020 is a big year for Goodwin and co. He can't afford another 5 win season, changes will need to be made, and they've started already.

 

If he has a ripper year in 2020 then I'll believe that this season was a good learning curve for him in other aspects.  

Right now it's just a puff piece and nothing more.

20 minutes ago, binman said:

At the risk of flogging a dead horse our shocking preseason prevented drilling in things over and over gain. Introducing new systems require all team availability for a high proportion of training sessions. Goodwin acknowledged that perhaps he overreached in terms of trying to implement new systems. 

That same disrupted preseason is the reason why we were not fit enough (and Lewis has said pointedly that some, presumably young players didn't come back fit enough, which if true would not have helped).

On new game style we absolutely tried to implement a more chip and hold system. This was particularly evident after the bye. it perplexes me that so many DL posters don't seem to have noticed this. Of course all game styles require two way running but this approach requires multiple players offering multiple leads and options when their team has the ball. And when they don't multiple players running to cover outlet kicks. Together that demands huge aerobic fitness - and i said we newer got fit enough. It is for this reason that we got smashed in last quarters so regularly. We ran out of gas and couldn't stop the switch and run it out of defence style teams like WC are so good at.

The interesting thing about this game style is i reckon it is one that is built for the home and away season. Contested ball is still super important but the keeping of style means there are less collisions (and much to the chagrin of the AFL less scoring opportunities - hard to score when you kick 4 or 5 times across you half back flank and then chip it slowly down the ground) and therefore hopefully less contact injuries and not as hard for players to get up and recover week after week. Very taxing aerobically but less physical toll.  

More than ever we have two different seasons. Home and Away and Finals. I suspect that this finals we will see much less chip and hold, quicker ball movement, an emphasis on getting it forward, high presssure around the ball, more big contests and the sort of game the dees played last year because in most games there is no tomorrow.  This suits teams like the Tigers, Giants and bullies i reckon.

Nice summary @binman

we might not agree why changes were made to the 2019 version of the game, but I think there are multiple reasons why our season never got going.

They other issue id like to raise to continue the discussion is the MFC had no ace, no go to for 2019. We weren't fast, we didn't have small forwards who put on pressure, we didn't defend well, all we had was Max Gawn.

I would love to see us excel in an area of the game in 2020. Where do we start?

Is it retooling our mids - like Brayshaw, Oliver, Viney, Harmes etc or is it recruiting in new players?

Structure or ability?

 

Edited September 3, 20195 yr by Unleash Hell

28 minutes ago, binman said:

At the risk of flogging a dead horse our shocking preseason prevented drilling in things over and over gain. Introducing new systems require all team availability for a high proportion of training sessions. Goodwin acknowledged that perhaps he overreached in terms of trying to implement new systems. 

That same disrupted preseason is the reason why we were not fit enough (and Lewis has said pointedly that some, presumably young players didn't come back fit enough, which if true would not have helped).

On new game style we absolutely tried to implement a more chip and hold system. This was particularly evident after the bye. it perplexes me that so many DL posters don't seem to have noticed this. Of course all game styles require two way running but this approach requires multiple players offering multiple leads and options when their team has the ball. And when they don't multiple players running to cover outlet kicks. Together that demands huge aerobic fitness - and i said we newer got fit enough. It is for this reason that we got smashed in last quarters so regularly. We ran out of gas and couldn't stop the switch and run it out of defence style teams like WC are so good at.

The interesting thing about this game style is i reckon it is one that is built for the home and away season. Contested ball is still super important but the keeping of style means there are less collisions (and much to the chagrin of the AFL less scoring opportunities - hard to score when you kick 4 or 5 times across you half back flank and then chip it slowly down the ground) and therefore hopefully less contact injuries and not as hard for players to get up and recover week after week. Very taxing aerobically but less physical toll.  

More than ever we have two different seasons. Home and Away and Finals. I suspect that this finals we will see much less chip and hold, quicker ball movement, an emphasis on getting it forward, high presssure around the ball, more big contests and the sort of game the dees played last year because in most games there is no tomorrow.  This suits teams like the Tigers, Giants and bullies i reckon.

I was being a bit flippant with my remark about new game style, and agree with a lot of you post. One thing we should never compromise on is fitness, it keeps you in a lot more games. 

35 minutes ago, Demon3 said:

I was being a bit flippant with my remark about new game style, and agree with a lot of you post. One thing we should never compromise on is fitness, it keeps you in a lot more games. 

Spot on on fitness. It doesn't matter what style used fitness is critical. But the chip and hold style that is in vogue definitely requires a a great deal of running.

It was interesting to read quotes from May that the dees wanted him to run a lot more up and down the ground than was the case at GC where he stayed in the back half as a  lock down defender ans that this was a factor in him not being fit enough for the game style we wanted to play. Suggests we were looking to do more running style game.

Perhaps given our preseason and injuries we in fact might have been better to stay more with our existing game style than trying a new one players weren't fit enough to execute. 

35 minutes ago, binman said:

Spot on on fitness. It doesn't matter what style used fitness is critical. But the chip and hold style that is in vogue definitely requires a a great deal of running.

It was interesting to read quotes from May that the dees wanted him to run a lot more up and down the ground than was the case at GC where he stayed in the back half as a  lock down defender ans that this was a factor in him not being fit enough for the game style we wanted to play. Suggests we were looking to do more running style game.

Perhaps given our preseason and injuries we in fact might have been better to stay more with our existing game style than trying a new one players weren't fit enough to execute. 

 In the cold light of day, I suspect You’re probably right Binman. except that he would have been ridiculed by all and sundry, told he was too stubborn/ stupid  to change and risked further alienating a supporter base already baying for blood. He possibly might have risked  his position as coach too.  

Edited September 3, 20195 yr by Wells 11

4 minutes ago, Wells 11 said:

 In the cold light of day, I suspect You’re probably right Binman. except that he would have been ridiculed by all and sundry, told he was too stubborn/ stupid  to change and risked further alienating a supporter base already baying for blood. He possibly might have risked  his position as coach too.  

100% @Wells 11, 100%.

2 hours ago, binman said:

On new game style we absolutely tried to implement a more chip and hold system. This was particularly evident after the bye. it perplexes me that so many DL posters don't seem to have noticed this.

My understanding Bin is the attempt (training/effort/emphasis) to up the amount of possession / tempo game style commenced during the 10 day break after the Rnd 6 match against the Tigers.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/demons-use-extended-afl-break-to-reset

Goody pretty much put the cue in the rack vs the Tiges, looking to defend defend defend with numbers behind the ball and T-Mac switched to defence for the first time in the season in order to prevent a blow out looming post the Saints debacle.

On the 10 day break he then went back to type, focussing mainly on his usual 2018 contested brand /style with more emphasis on numbers at the ball (possibly bringing a forward out on occasions for a +1 at stoppages but that's pure conjecture on my part and i would need to go back to the replays) and two way running (where we clearly continued to struggle with transition) but playing on at break neck wherever possible.

In other words, not that different really....just some re-focus, re-emphasis on extra numbers/winning contested and transitioning to i50 a little more quickly without trying to be so precise (more chaos if that was possible!??).

As you say, Goody then 'attempted' (my emphasis) to add an extra layer of possession/ tempo on top after the 10 day break but post the Hawks in Rnd 7.

Unfortunately too little too late.  Our ability to carry it off for more than a few minutes on limited occasions wasn't there, most likely due to a lack of time available in between matches to train it as a group.  Almost impossible to pull off mid season.  Add to this a lack of pre-season fitness among too many at the time including the two captains.  The 10 day break and the bye the only genuine times that would have allowed a reset and to train the 'new layer' into whoever was available at the time.

In summary i agree that there was an attempt to commandeer an increase in minutes using a possession / tempo option to the game style.  However, my understanding is that the extra training to increase the minutes attempting to use it in game may have commenced during the 10 day break.  Not after the bye.

When you say you are surprised that most DL posters didn't notice.  I'm not at all as it was very stepped and gradual post the 10 day break / Hawks match and we mostly couldn't sustain it for more than a few odd minutes on random occasions.  Occasionally yes, it worked a treat in some parts of some matches but like most aspects of our game this season, it was continually picked apart by the opp and/or we just failed to execute for long enough and perpetually gave the ball straight back.

Edited September 3, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

2 hours ago, Unleash Hell said:

Nice summary @binman

we might not agree why changes were made to the 2019 version of the game, but I think there are multiple reasons why our season never got going.

They other issue id like to raise to continue the discussion is the MFC had no ace, no go to for 2019. We weren't fast, we didn't have small forwards who put on pressure, we didn't defend well, all we had was Max Gawn.

I would love to see us excel in an area of the game in 2020. Where do we start?

Is it retooling our mids - like Brayshaw, Oliver, Viney, Harmes etc or is it recruiting in new players?

Structure or ability?

 

Agree on hurt factor. The impact of our best player in maxy was nullifed in large part because other teams basically robed to him. Simple but effective.

I really think trac will go to another level and provide that point of difference. Bu5 I also think we really need to draft and trade in some real skill. The players that do the most damage are those that hit targets.

Does this mean Gus is staying put? 

Re OP

Not sure whether to laugh or cry....drink is a given....

FFS, I read that article and think just how deluded are these guys.

 Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney and Harmes have egos the size of the MCG and despite the magnificent efforts of Max, these midfielders have been abysmal for us this year. These are the guys that should be setting the standards for the team. Come to think of it, maybe they did.

A huge dose of tough love from the coaching staff is required. 

21 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

My understanding Bin is the attempt (training/effort/emphasis) to up the amount of possession / tempo game style commenced during the 10 day break after the Rnd 6 match against the Tigers.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/demons-use-extended-afl-break-to-reset

Goody pretty much put the cue in the rack vs the Tiges, looking to defend defend defend with numbers behind the ball and T-Mac switched to defence for the first time in the season in order to prevent a blow out looming post the Saints debacle.

On the 10 day break he then went back to type, focussing mainly on his usual 2018 contested brand /style with more emphasis on numbers at the ball (possibly bringing a forward out on occasions for a +1 at stoppages but that's pure conjecture on my part and i would need to go back to the replays) and two way running (where we clearly continued to struggle with transition) but playing on at break neck wherever possible.

In other words, not that different really....just some re-focus, re-emphasis on extra numbers/winning contested and transitioning to i50 a little more quickly without trying to be so precise (more chaos if that was possible!??).

As you say, Goody then 'attempted' (my emphasis) to add an extra layer of possession/ tempo on top after the 10 day break but post the Hawks in Rnd 7.

Unfortunately too little too late.  Our ability to carry it off for more than a few minutes on limited occasions wasn't there, most likely due to a lack of time available in between matches to train it as a group.  Almost impossible to pull off mid season.  Add to this a lack of pre-season fitness among too many at the time including the two captains.  The 10 day break and the bye the only genuine times that would have allowed a reset and to train the 'new layer' into whoever was available at the time.

In summary i agree that there was an attempt to commandeer an increase in minutes using a possession / tempo option to the game style.  However, my understanding is that the extra training to increase the minutes attempting to use it in game may have commenced during the 10 day break.  Not after the bye.

When you say you are surprised that most DL posters didn't notice.  I'm not at all as it was very stepped and gradual post the 10 day break / Hawks match and we mostly couldn't sustain it for more than a few odd minutes on random occasions.  Occasionally yes, it worked a treat in some parts of some matches but like most aspects of our game this season, it was continually picked apart by the opp and/or we just failed to execute for long enough and perpetually gave the ball straight back.

Good post rusty. I get what you are saying about the reset and you are probably right. I suspect that they were actually modifying the game style preseason, though not radically.

Hard for players to implement a new style at any time. I think back to the struggles adapting to a zone defence

But our lack of foot skills don't help thats for sure