13 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

the way we moved the ball through the middle of the ground, which for the most part I found to be pretty uninspiring and lacking in confidence

Yes, but where does confidence come from? You're running through the middle, you look up and you see what ahead of you? Not familiar faces, running to where you expect them to be, doing what you've done together x times in the past ... you see  either players who deep down you don't really trust to win/hold the ball (Hannan), or players who you've *never* played with down forward (Petty, Preuss). In both those scenarios, what you don't have is predictability, thus, a lack of confidence in the outcomes.

1 hour ago, Redleg said:

Where he ( Fritter)  should have been all year and the second half of last season as well. He is a forward.

I can see the logic behind his move to half back/wing - he is a good reader of the player, good overhead and generally a beautiful kick of the footy.  

But you watch his second half up forward and you wonder why he was ever moved from there in the first place.  With Tom Mac out for the year you would hope he spends more time forward for the last six games of the year.

5 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I can see the logic behind his move to half back/wing - he is a good reader of the player, good overhead and generally a beautiful kick of the footy.  

But you watch his second half up forward and you wonder why he was ever moved from there in the first place.  With Tom Mac out for the year you would hope he spends more time forward for the last six games of the year.

He'll probably go back when Nathan Jones calls it a day

Salem and Fritsch out of defence appeals to me

28 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Yes, but where does confidence come from? You're running through the middle, you look up and you see what ahead of you? Not familiar faces, running to where you expect them to be, doing what you've done together x times in the past ... you see  either players who deep down you don't really trust to win/hold the ball (Hannan), or players who you've *never* played with down forward (Petty, Preuss). In both those scenarios, what you don't have is predictability, thus, a lack of confidence in the outcomes.

I agree with parts of what you are saying here Ding.  The connection with forwards  (or lack there of) could definitely be a contributer, as could the near continuous inconsistency of personal, but it's not like we even seem to start moving the ball confidently ouT of stoppages at the moment, which the forwardline is less responsible for, although possibly something being overlooked was Jessie Hogan's ability to get up the ground and provide an 'out' from our defence.

I'd also have complete confidence in 2018 Hannan to win the ball and use it well, but not so much 2017 Hannan.

This lack of confidence and clean ball use has become like an infection and it's really hard to stop the rot at this point in the season when we are comming up against settled teams full of confidence and system when we are struggling to get back up off the deck.  Does make me wonder though - were is the emphasis on manic tackling pressure which requires little confidence.

1 hour ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

I really do think the role of our injuries is being under played in the assessments of our performance on Sunday against the Dogs.  I was just reflecting this morning how rotten our luck with injuries has been this year.  Hardly a week goes by where we have not had to have made forced changes due to players going out with injuries.  No sooner do we get players back than we get lumped with another handful of players we loose with realitively unavoidable injuries. 

Just take the last fortnight for example Hore (collar bone), T Mac (new knee injury), Weid (something or another) - I'm not sure that any of these injuries could have been avoided in the standard rough and tumble of the AFL, yet we just seem to keep copping more than our fair share them. 

I'd imagine that if T Mac had been in our forward line in the sort of form he had finally got him self back into, Hore had have played in place of an under done Jetta and Weid had played in place of either a raw Dunckley or scratchy Hannan, it probably would have been enough for us to have beaten the dogs and we would all have a somewhat/slightly different outlook on where the team is presently at.

That all said, adding those aforementioned players back into the side would have unlikely changed the way we moved the ball through the middle of the ground, which for the most part I found to be pretty uninspiring and lacking in confidence and dominance.  It also needs to be taken into consideration that the Dogs were a rotation out for most of the game after loosing McLean early on.

All in all, I'm not completely dispondant about what our present performances mean for our potential in 2020, because our year has and continues to be wrecked by injury, but I am finding it hard to find many positives from the procession of mediocre performances that is all we seem destined to produce for the rest of the season.  I guess now I'm just hoping to see some more games and development in the likes of Petty, Press, Weid, Hore, Dunkley, the settling of our back six and that we can have one hell of a reset in the offseason.  It's not exactly that I don't think we shouldn't be playing to win, but more of an acceptance for now that many more wins not might be that practically achievable between now and the end of the season with the injury and form backlog we have built for ourselves and the likelihood of being able to peg much of that back between now and the end of the season.

I agree with your sessment. The other factor which has hardly been mentioned is we copped a much tougher draw as a reward for finishing so high last year. Add that to the the amount of players who began the season under-prepared due to injuries and operations, the subsequent injury toll, and most sides would have struggled. Remember too we've not had a 'settled' defence or On Ball combination, let alone our Forwards, all year.

9 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Or leave him right there and allow him to grow into the shared role . It might take a little while to gel. We're not robbing anyone at the moment...except supporters...robbing them blind.

Here we can have real time experience for the dynamic duo.. we're not going to be doing much in september are we.

We could but Preuss doesn't have good hands.  And he's up forward to take grabs.  If we had some decent small forwards then Preuss providing a contest would be of more value.  He can at least do that.

We know he can ruck and is very able back-up to Max.  The effort was there on Sunday ... he's just not a threat and doesn't really know how to play as a key forward.

But who else is there?  Petty did ok and Tim Smith might be available (?)  Weideman again?

You may be right Bub ... give the big boy 6 more games and see what comes of it.  Season is shot anyway and Preuss might just start clunking them.

Edited July 15, 20195 yr by Macca

1 hour ago, bing181 said:

Yes, but where does confidence come from? You're running through the middle, you look up and you see what ahead of you? Not familiar faces, running to where you expect them to be, doing what you've done together x times in the past ... you see  either players who deep down you don't really trust to win/hold the ball (Hannan), or players who you've *never* played with down forward (Petty, Preuss). In both those scenarios, what you don't have is predictability, thus, a lack of confidence in the outcomes.

Good point bing. It's the coaches job to instill that confidence. 

While the player has to and is the only one who can earn it the coach must be able to ensure the aspects of selection inspire confidence.

Through both pre, during and post game the coach needs to overcome the negative thoughts of all teammates of themselves and others.. I reckon the way we continue to win the ball and keep playing despite umpiring howlers is proof the Goodwin has worked ok on the team confidence. The way individuals miss shots at goal, handpassesetc is perhaps more of an individual lack of confidence. From that perspective the comment on Tracs high five before failing could perhaps be justified.

12 hours ago, Nasher said:

194 wasn’t it? It was in reference to Dunn. Too tall to be a mid and too short to be a KP apparently.

It was 191cm. Ridiculous comments from our Freak.

On 7/14/2019 at 6:28 PM, frankie_d said:

Can't help but wonder what one P.Jackson is thinking...

Jackson gave some interviews at the end of last year in which he stated linear progression like we'd had since 2013 was unusual and the most important thing was for supporters and the club to not lose faith when things inevitably turned for the worse

Edited July 15, 20195 yr by Dr. Gonzo

Reading this thread you'd think we lost by 40+. We lost by 8 points in what was almost a 50/50 game.

Some posters are gonna look real silly next year trying to backtrack on their comments about Goodwin, Jackson, Roos and certain players when we're playing finals again.

12 hours ago, buck_nekkid said:

Did you notice the handball that Gus received from Clarry before he got run down in the tackle?  It was a looping, slow handball that Gus had to check his pace to receive, opening the way to be caught by Dunkley.  If Clarry had put a bullet handball and Gus could run onto it, there would have been no tackle, and probably a goal.  It is a million moments like these that are costing us in every game.  Like the bomb kicks into forward 50, like the way we get sucked en masse into contests and the opposition run around the outside, those over-the-head-to-no one handballs, the giraffe kicks not to advantage.....We are putting in loads of effort, but it must be so disheartening when stupid errors make it meaningless.

Oliver could have just kicked it himself, he basically stopped moving to give the slow loopy to brayshaw and didn't take the responsibility to kick what would have been a pretty easy goal from 40m on the run. You can say it was team play, but I thought it showed a lack of confidence to take ownership of the situation. Really poor and still Ollie's biggest (and probably only) major flaw is his unwillingness to kick.

1 hour ago, Macca said:

We could but Preuss doesn't have good hands.  And he's up forward to take grabs.  If we had some decent small forwards then Preuss providing a contest would be of more value.  He can at least do that.

We know he can ruck and is very able back-up to Max.  The effort was there on Sunday ... he's just not a threat and doesn't really know how to play as a key forward.

But who else is there?  Petty did ok and Tim Smith might be available (?)  Weideman again?

You may be right Bub ... give the big boy 6 more games and see what comes of it.  Season is shot anyway and Preuss might just start clunking them.

They have said all year they have played Preuss in the twos largely to improve his marking. Yesterday I thought he tried hard and gave an option, but dropped marks he should have taken. If we had good smalls underneath him, it may have at least enabled the ball to be retained, but they mopped up all the spilt marks as we have no crumbers.

We have been the unluckiest team all year when it comes to playing teams and their form going into the game.

Essendon (turned it around against us and won 3 straight)

Saints (world beaters at the time)

Richmond (before most of their injuries)

Collingwood (before their form drop off)

Dogs (turned it around a couple of weeks before us)

Even our wins against Freo, Carlton and the Suns we came up against them in good form. The only team I can think of we were lucky with is Sydney.

 

13 hours ago, buck_nekkid said:

Did you notice the handball that Gus received from Clarry before he got run down in the tackle?  It was a looping, slow handball that Gus had to check his pace to receive, opening the way to be caught by Dunkley.  If Clarry had put a bullet handball and Gus could run onto it, there would have been no tackle, and probably a goal.  It is a million moments like these that are costing us in every game.  Like the bomb kicks into forward 50, like the way we get sucked en masse into contests and the opposition run around the outside, those over-the-head-to-no one handballs, the giraffe kicks not to advantage.....We are putting in loads of effort, but it must be so disheartening when stupid errors make it meaningless.

Agreed, there was another instance where we had the ball on the forward flank and Maxy was streaming into the forward line unopposed. All we had to do was kick it in front of him to run onto and jump at an easyish mark. Instead we put it on top of Petty and his opponent and Max had to crash a pack. End result, no mark and Dogs cleared the ball

Another example Harmes had the ball about 45 out on an angle and had Petracca all on his own 10-15 out across goal. He blazed away and missed.

Another example down the other end we had the ball deep in the forward pocket with 3 or 4 players free across goal. Again we failed to pass it off and another chance goes begging.

I think this stuff will come with maturity and greater composure and when it clicks we'll be running over teams again. Won't be this year tho unfortunately.

14 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

We have been the unluckiest team all year when it comes to playing teams and their form going into the game.

Essendon (turned it around against us and won 3 straight)

Saints (world beaters at the time)

Richmond (before most of their injuries)

Collingwood (before their form drop off)

Dogs (turned it around a couple of weeks before us)

Even our wins against Freo, Carlton and the Suns we came up against them in good form. The only team I can think of we were lucky with is Sydney.

 

Agree although Collingwood had been playing [censored] for at least a month before we played them. They'd still been winning though which camouflaged it

12 hours ago, DubDee said:

Weed would be copping it on here if he put a one mark game like Pruess did under the roof. 

Maybe we are seeing why Pruess hasn’t been selected earlier. A work in progress. 

 

12 hours ago, Nasher said:

I counted three marks Preuss dropped that he had clean hands on. He’s almost there, but he’s not there yet. Also, Gawn was ineffective when not in the ruck, so in effect by playing both, we’re robbing Peter to invest in virtual currency. 

I’d drop Preuss for the time being. The clear focus for him is to work on his marking - around the ground and when sneaking forward. It’s what he needs to be able to do if he wants to ruck in tandem with Gawn in the long run.

Preuss copped a heavy knock early in the game and was on the ground for a while to the point I thought he might have done a knee or ankle. He ended up being able to jog off with both hands holding his back so he must have copped a bad knock/knee to the back which might have effected his reaching for marks? Not saying he would've otherwise clunked them but it might have impacted his strength in the contest.

11 hours ago, Demon3 said:

One more.. i think the Lever acquisition may go down as a move that really stifled our future. Hindsight is wonderful, but he cost us alot.. a lot.. and his Knee injury is bad luck, but i reckon he played 2 maybe 3 ok to good games for us before he did his knee. I think he is poor with ball in hand, often gets in the way of other players, has no obvious pace and is not good one on one. Basically he is Marty Hore, but Hore is quicker. Lever may have a good footy brain, but i dont think Stephen Hawking could help our players sometime. Waiving your hands around and acting like a general cost us 2 first round selections.

 

Massive overreaction. Maybe wait until he actually strings some games together before making the call.

11 hours ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

With the team struggling Oliver's flaws have been exposed. His insistence to handball at all costs has gone from a quirky habit to a flat out detriment to the team. His contested stuff is always going to be great but unless this changes he is never going to be truly elite. He has all the ability to be the superstar but he's holding himself back

I'd play him forward more often. Put the responsibility on him to use the footy better and kick the goals.

10 hours ago, DeeZone said:

I agree with a lot of what has been mentioned on here But I believe that we lost it at the Selection Table, if we had put in Baker, Corey Wagner, JKH and Maynard in Lieu of Hannam, Neville, Dunkley and ANB it could have been a much different result....................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Baker should be playing. The rest? Meh.

3 hours ago, dieter said:

I agree with your sessment. The other factor which has hardly been mentioned is we copped a much tougher draw as a reward for finishing so high last year. Add that to the the amount of players who began the season under-prepared due to injuries and operations, the subsequent injury toll, and most sides would have struggled. Remember too we've not had a 'settled' defence or On Ball combination, let alone our Forwards, all year.

The "tougher draw" was our double up games vs Richmond, Collingwood and WCE which haven't happened yet.

 

Dear P man. "Anyone who thinks this year is a blimp needs their head read."

Blimp: an airship.

Blip: a radar dot, meaning soon forgotten.

5 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Reading this thread you'd think we lost by 40+. We lost by 8 points in what was almost a 50/50 game.

Some posters are gonna look real silly next year trying to backtrack on their comments about Goodwin, Jackson, Roos and certain players when we're playing finals again.

That's the problem Dr we LOST BY 8 POINTS  no cigar !!

Us vs Eagles Crows Pies and Dogs these errors and disposals and other minor errors have cost us these games 

The coaches have not improved us one iota really this year 

Name other than Salem who really is playing better footy this year than last ?

5 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Baker should be playing. The rest? Meh.

Always hard to tell on Demonland, but I thought he was being sarcastic, rearranging the deckchairs and all that.

4 hours ago, 58er said:

That's the problem Dr we LOST BY 8 POINTS  no cigar !!

Us vs Eagles Crows Pies and Dogs these errors and disposals and other minor errors have cost us these games 

The coaches have not improved us one iota really this year 

Name other than Salem who really is playing better footy this year than last ?

Frost

9 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I'd play him forward more often. Put the responsibility on him to use the footy better and kick the goals.

I did notice that the mids as a whole were rotating spots alot on Sunday. Never had 2 consecutive centre bounces line up the same. Oliver had a few runs as a forward but he rarely has an impact when forward.

It's worth persisting with because of his size and clean pickups could result in scores if he actually got some 1-1 opportunities. Unfortunately none of our forwards ever get any space.