Is our midfield the real problem?

[Neil Crompton 5,825]

I have a feeling that the lack of disposal skills, by foot, of our midfield, and their lack of their two way running / defensive pressure, is a major cause of our problems all over the field.

Why would one of our forwards even bother to create a lead when the likes of Jones, Brayshaw, Harmes, Viney, ANB, and to a lessor extent Oliver kick into the 50?

They couldn't hit a target if they tried, and they continually bomb it in long to a pack.

Then after they kick into the 50, they do not defend.

As sure as [censored], the bombed kick is killed by the defense, and sling-shot out of the back line to the opposition midfielders standing by themselves.; and into the opposition forward line at break neck speed that no defender has a chance of defending. I think this is why we leak goals like a sieve.

What is seen as our major strength - our mid-field - is actually a major weakness for our game plan.. They are great at getting the ball into our 50 - hence the extraordinary inside 50's we do have - but they waste it most of the time. Unless Salem, Lewis, Weiderman or Melksham had the ball in hand, I wouldn't bother to lead either. (its no wonder Hogan had the [censored]).

Until our midfield can improve their kicking and defensive skills, we will continue to disappoint.

 

[Red and Blue realist 2,063]

Said in the changes thread but one thing we need to fix is with Oliver and Brayshaw. They both try to go to a player at centre bounces, bumping etc, like their playing a negating role. They are the stars, let harmes and Viney play this roles, and get them to just concentrate on getting the ball.

They got sucked in too many times last night, so Gawn would win the tap but Essendon won it too easy while those guys were trailing behind. That should be a very easy fix. The bigger worry is what happens when they don't have the ball, of our on ballers it's only really harmes who runs and chases hard, the others all seem to lose a gear when it goes past them

[John Crow Batty 8,889]

ANB, Jones and Viney. A trio of wombats.  Strong and good at rooting around the bottom of packs but slow in pace, execution and mind with limited skills. We can’t win with those three passengers the way they are playing. The others have more upside.

Edited April 6, 2019 by america de cali

[dl4e 5,851]

44 minutes ago, Neil Crompton said:

I have a feeling that the lack of disposal skills, by foot, of our midfield, and their lack of their two way running / defensive pressure, is a major cause of our problems all over the field.

.

 

That part of your statement is true but our forwards continue to drop marks they should be eating and our defence does not know one of the basics of football. Sticking to your man.

[Laughing Goat 308]

maybe......definately accountability & speed around the midfield to break the lines & transition.

Other clubs can do it....we can't. Not with the current players anyway......

[Redleg 42,087]

33 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

Said in the changes thread but one thing we need to fix is with Oliver and Brayshaw. They both try to go to a player at centre bounces, bumping etc, like their playing a negating role. They are the stars, let harmes and Viney play this roles, and get them to just concentrate on getting the ball.

They got sucked in too many times last night, so Gawn would win the tap but Essendon won it too easy while those guys were trailing behind. That should be a very easy fix. The bigger worry is what happens when they don't have the ball, of our on ballers it's only really harmes who runs and chases hard, the others all seem to lose a gear when it goes past them

Agree with that. Oliver seems too intent on niggling his opponent. Needs to just worry about the ball as he is our best accumulator.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Essendon walked the ball out of clearances all night.

On top of that around most contests we would commit too many players to the same side only for it to come out the other side and Essendon run away with it.

Short answer, yes our midfield is a big problem.

[praha 11,267]

You know what's sad? The best, most direct kick to a lead last night came from Frost to Petracca in the third quarter. Frost drilled it down Trac's throat and he fluffed it. They went down the other end and kicked a goal.

Such is life.

[praha 11,267]

9 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Agree with that. Oliver seems too intent on niggling his opponent. Needs to just worry about the ball as he is our best accumulator.

Disagree. You're asking Oliver to change his game plan based on our deficiencies. He is an inside player with unbelievable hands. Holding him to account because coaching and recruiting can't see we don't have outside skill and run is silly. He's Neither a catalyst nor a symptom of the problem. He's part of the solution. We're eating our own here by attacking Oliver.

[Fork 'em 7,052]

45 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

Said in the changes thread but one thing we need to fix is with Oliver and Brayshaw. They both try to go to a player at centre bounces, bumping etc, like their playing a negating role. They are the stars, let harmes and Viney play this roles, and get them to just concentrate on getting the ball.

They got sucked in too many times last night, so Gawn would win the tap but Essendon won it too easy while those guys were trailing behind. That should be a very easy fix. The bigger worry is what happens when they don't have the ball, of our on ballers it's only really harmes who runs and chases hard, the others all seem to lose a gear when it goes past them

Agree totally.
Especially with Oliver, noticed him on Heppell and it looked as though Oliver was the tagger.
Didn't notice so much with Brayshaw but I'll take your word for it.
And Harmes is the only one with what I'd call break away pace.
Look at Shiel ..... He ripped us to bits from the centre last night cause no-one could catch him.

None of the mids have real good disposal and again I think Harmes is the best of the lot.
But as someone stated up top there.
If the players around the ground cannot hold a simple mark to save themselves it make things difficult.
The backline is pure comedy at the moment and again I saw Omac dropping a mark early that he went for with one hand that he should have gobbled up.
We struggle with the basics all over the ground and it was a problem last year aswell.
A couple finals wins that we made harder work than we should have just masked the issues.

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Fork 'em

[Redleg 42,087]

3 minutes ago, praha said:

Disagree. You're asking Oliver to change his game plan based on our deficiencies. He is an inside player with unbelievable hands. Holding him to account because coaching and recruiting can't see we don't have outside skill and run is silly. He's Neither a catalyst nor a symptom of the problem. He's part of the solution. We're eating our own here by attacking Oliver.

Read my post again you clearly didn't the first time.

He is my favourite Demon by a mile.

I said he is our best accumulator of the ball.

I didn't mention his game plan or changing it.

I was talking about him "wasting his energy getting involved in niggles with his opponent". It is of no benefit to him or the team.

[Jack son 5 162]

Watching the highlights and now watching the game again. I know this is late in the game on the Mcgrath goal, but that's 10 Melbourne players out of position. The midfield are to caught out on the rebound and try hunting the ball. To many players dropping back and not reading the play. 

[DV8 2,271]

1 hour ago, Neil Crompton said:

They couldn't hit a target if they tried, and they continually bomb it in long to a pack.

and IMO, they bomb it in too deep..

 

I would rather us, if we have to bomb, go from Wing position... to 45Mtrs or more, out...   Not to inside 40mtrs.  

I want space behind the pack,  that we could use if we win contested ball off that pack.   I want the possibility that the Oppo defenders have to be concerned about 360*  of the F50,  rather than them only facing toward their team-mates.

[Smokey 4,391]

1 hour ago, praha said:

Disagree. You're asking Oliver to change his game plan based on our deficiencies. He is an inside player with unbelievable hands. Holding him to account because coaching and recruiting can't see we don't have outside skill and run is silly. He's Neither a catalyst nor a symptom of the problem. He's part of the solution. We're eating our own here by attacking Oliver.

This is a really good post and couldn’t agree more. 

Its been said before and continues to get brought up time and time again, but we have too many ball winners in our mid and not enough ball users. This would have held up well enough a few years ago (including last year), but the game has evolved this year already and our list hasn’t along current trends with 666. Having said that, I don’t have many issues with our recruiting strategies over the last few years in getting key position players. But the problem is and will remain we don’t have the stock for quality ball users going into our forward 50. 

Funny thing is, I and many others were relishing the prospect of 666 with our ball winning midfield. I think everyone’s view on this was too simplistic, win the clearance and with a more open forward line we inevitably profit. Oppo teams have figured out that if you put our midfield brigade under any sort of pressure, the disposal turns horrible and because of our lack of two way running, scoring on the rebound is nothing short of a feast. 

The hardest thing about this is I can’t see many ways to negate this with our current selection of players and I fear our game plan and list is a generation behind already. 

 

[Jaded No More 68,976]

1 hour ago, praha said:

Disagree. You're asking Oliver to change his game plan based on our deficiencies. He is an inside player with unbelievable hands. Holding him to account because coaching and recruiting can't see we don't have outside skill and run is silly. He's Neither a catalyst nor a symptom of the problem. He's part of the solution. We're eating our own here by attacking Oliver.

Correct. He is by far our best player and his physical game style is what makes him so good. It’s like asking Viney to be less aggressive at the contest. Neither of them, nor Gus are there to be beautiful users of the footy. Their role is to get the ball in and out of the contest and feed it out cleanly. Oliver is a good user anyway, but all high clearance players generally have higher turnover numbers. It comes with the territory of always disposing under pressure. When it comes to his disposal by hand he rarely makes a mistake. 

[Red and Blue realist 2,063]

1 hour ago, praha said:

Disagree. You're asking Oliver to change his game plan based on our deficiencies. He is an inside player with unbelievable hands. Holding him to account because coaching and recruiting can't see we don't have outside skill and run is silly. He's Neither a catalyst nor a symptom of the problem. He's part of the solution. We're eating our own here by attacking Oliver.

We're pointing out that he should play to his strength, see ball get ball win ball. Not waste a heap of energy doing unnecessary niggle. A big reason why Essendon flogged at centre bounces was because we forgot about the ball and wasted the opportunities max provided.

Yes we need better outside run, but that's not what I was pointing out

[Smokey 4,391]

1 minute ago, Red and Blue realist said:

We're pointing out that he should play to his strength, see ball get ball win ball. Not waste a heap of energy doing unnecessary niggle. A big reason why Essendon flogged at centre bounces was because we forgot about the ball and wasted the opportunities max provided.

Yes we need better outside run, but that's not what I was pointing out

Niggle always was and always will be part of a midfielders game. Clutching at straws a bit here mate. 

[Red and Blue realist 2,063]

Sure it will be, but so many times Oliver in particular went for niggle rather than concentrating on the ball, max then got a good knock down which was sharked by an Essendon player who waltzed out of the centre with our guys trailing behind. I'm just saying that if he's going for the ball rather than the man we'd be so much better. Getting flogged in the centre needs to be fixed

[Sir Why You Little 37,394]

41 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

Sure it will be, but so many times Oliver in particular went for niggle rather than concentrating on the ball, max then got a good knock down which was sharked by an Essendon player who waltzed out of the centre with our guys trailing behind. I'm just saying that if he's going for the ball rather than the man we'd be so much better. Getting flogged in the centre needs to be fixed

It all comes down to attitude 

Who wants it more...

[Ante_Up 69]

5 hours ago, america de cali said:

ANB, Jones and Viney. A trio of wombats.  Strong and good at rooting around the bottom of packs but slow in pace, execution and mind with limited skills. We can’t win with those three passengers the way they are playing. The others have more upside.

Gooey chewy and not hot and Spicey wombats 

 

[JV7 2,375]

3 hours ago, DV8 said:

and IMO, they bomb it in too deep..

 

I would rather us, if we have to bomb, go from Wing position... to 45Mtrs or more, out...   Not to inside 40mtrs.  

I want space behind the pack,  that we could use if we win contested ball off that pack.   I want the possibility that the Oppo defenders have to be concerned about 360*  of the F50,  rather than them only facing toward their team-mates.

That is actually the most dangerous kick in footy, if you don't mark that ball or lock it in you open yourself right up to be counter attacked. I'm of the opposite, if your going to bomb it inside 50 do it long & deep and try to create repeat stoppages inside 50. At the moment our ground ball work inside 50 is deplorable, we bomb it in, dont mark & then let opposition sides run it out. 

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by JV7

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

The obvious way to counter the problem of having so many mids who have poor foot skills and who tend to bomb it in, is to actually play preuss as the deep forward swapping with Gawn. That at least draws a defender and gives us a chance of marking when the mids bomb it in

 

As has already been pointed out, if you do make a change and bring in a tall, we must have some ground ball players. I’d like to see Garlett and Preuss included next week. 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Leoncelli_36

[DV8 2,271]

6 minutes ago, JV7 said:

That is actually the most dangerous kick in footy, if you don't mark that ball or lock it in you open yourself right up to be counter attacked. I'm of the opposite, if your going to bomb it inside 50 do it long & deep and try to create repeat stoppages inside 50. At the moment our ground ball work inside 50 is deplorable, we bomb it in, dont mark & then let opposition sides run it out. 

 

Traditionally it has been, but it doesn''t work for us... as the defenders are better and more organised than our forwads.

... if the high kick lands around 45+ out,  it gives a chance for our talls (Weide) to run straight to where the ball is heading.   Instead of guessing what our Mids are likely to do,  which is in chaos atmo. 

So I'd prefer we change things,  with the high kick coming in from further out around the wing...  aiming at 45mtrs out , then if its smashed out,  we can pounce and chip over to someone who has run into some space.

Why be traditional,  when the defences are built on what is expected.?   Why not change things up.   We're not al sheep.   And we don't have to keep doing the things the way they always been done.

 

creation is never replicated...  everything is unique.

[DV8 2,271]

15 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

The obvious way to counter the problem of having so many mids who have poor foot skills and who tend to bomb it in, is to actually play preuss as the deep forward swapping with Gawn. That at least draws a defender and gives us a chance of marking when the mids bomb it in

 

As has already been pointed out, if you do make a change and bring in a tall, we must have some ground ball players. I’d like to see Garlett and Preuss included next week. 

When Preuss plays,  we can bomb deeper (when needed), and have mosquito's hanging around him.

[Demon Dynasty 17,149]

6 hours ago, Neil Crompton said:

I have a feeling that the lack of disposal skills, by foot, of our midfield, and their lack of their two way running / defensive pressure, is a major cause of our problems all over the field.

Why would one of our forwards even bother to create a lead when the likes of Jones, Brayshaw, Harmes, Viney, ANB, and to a lessor extent Oliver kick into the 50?

They couldn't hit a target if they tried, and they continually bomb it in long to a pack.

Then after they kick into the 50, they do not defend.

As sure as [censored], the bombed kick is killed by the defense, and sling-shot out of the back line to the opposition midfielders standing by themselves.; and into the opposition forward line at break neck speed that no defender has a chance of defending. I think this is why we leak goals like a sieve.

What is seen as our major strength - our mid-field - is actually a major weakness for our game plan.. They are great at getting the ball into our 50 - hence the extraordinary inside 50's we do have - but they waste it most of the time. Unless Salem, Lewis, Weiderman or Melksham had the ball in hand, I wouldn't bother to lead either. (its no wonder Hogan had the [censored]).

Until our midfield can improve their kicking and defensive skills, we will continue to disappoint.

 

Like any team, we give the appearance of looking better when winning the clearances.  It's what happens after that and our slow plodders across the park (referring to inside mids...Harmes somewhat of an exception but more outside/inside) that the opposition sweats on.

We also tend to overdo the handball in close at times (or have done so far this season IMO) at when either a quick kick forward (when there's no one in the clear for a receive) or taking the tackle and re-setting the stoppage might be a better option.  This then brings more heat on everyone around the ball and we are often worried out of it watching the opp run off from our handball errors (often handballing in panic as a result to no one!).

All the opp needs to do is put a little pressure on us, sweat on us on the outside and they know we'll mostly bomb or miss targets by hand/foot and turn it over.   They tend to play to their trained methods and maintain their structure.  Often the opp has a mid or two sitting back behind our mids who tend to get too far (too many numbers rushing forward of the footy) and we forget to maintain any defensive structure / discipline behind the ball to protect the turnover.

When the ball gets out the back the opp's stay at home (structurally) mid or mids are in space and off to the races for the easy goal or hit up to a lead inside 50.

Again, this comes down to footy smarts, smart decisions and AFL level ball use, especially by foot.  Our foot skills are, with a few exceptions here and there, woefully below AFL standard.  It's costing us big time and may well cost us the ultimate prize during a premiership window.

Foot skills are critical allow you to control the momentum and pace of the game....AND allows you to finish off the hard work up the field more often in front of goal.  West Coast superb at it  tonight.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Rusty Nails