Jump to content


Recommended Posts

Posted

Richmond, us, and a few other teams rely heavily on zone defence. Richmond have been by far the best at it, but last night they were completely dismantled by Collingwoods game plan to counter it.

Did Collingwood just have an amazing night, or will good teams now consistently dismantle zone defences?  

  • Like 1
  • Shocked 1
  • Sad 1

Posted (edited)

666 makes it harder ( not impossible ) to get numbers at the back to corral the opposition..Ie guard a zone.

Now he who HAS the ball will win.

Collingwood HAD. the ball...and won.

 

Edited by beelzebub
  • Like 2
Posted (edited)

I don't think it is zone defence that makes the difference.  Richmond broke down in the middle and forward.

The difference is the underlying game plan:  'chaos vs control' football. 

Like Richmond we play 'chaos' style whereas Collingwood more and more play 'control' style like WCE and Hawks.  They amass huge uncontested possessions and marks and can control the tempo.  Very difficult for 'chaos' style to stop that when they are marking and the ball doesn't come to ground for a contest.

6-6-6 and other rule changes aid the 'control' style more than 'chaos' by creating open space, as Port showed last week.

'Control' football requires a team with very good foot skills and to be very disciplined.  We don't have the foot skills to play 'control' football.  And tbh I'm not sure we have the on-field footy nous to implement it.

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
  • Like 5
Posted
1 minute ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I don't think it is zone defence that makes the difference.  Richmond broke down in the middle and forward.

The difference is the underlying game plan:  'chaos vs control' football. 

Like Richmond we play 'chaos' style whereas Collingwood more and more play 'control' style like WCE and Hawks.  They amass huge uncontested possessions and marks and can control the tempo.  Very difficult for 'chaos' style to stop that when they are marking and the ball doesn't come to ground for a contest.

The latter requires a team with very good foot skills and to be very disciplined.  We don't have the foot skills to play 'control' football.  And tbh I'm not sure we have the on-field footy nous to implement it.

So I should book a round the world holiday, settle down in a kibutz after meeting a girl, have kid/s and come back in 3-4 years when we have the nous?

  • Haha 1
  • Sad 1

Posted
2 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I don't think it is zone defence that makes the difference.  Richmond broke down in the middle and forward.

The difference is the underlying game plan:  'chaos vs control' football. 

Like Richmond we play 'chaos' style whereas Collingwood more and more play 'control' style like WCE and Hawks.  They amass huge uncontested possessions and marks and can control the tempo.  Very difficult for 'chaos' style to stop that when they are marking and the ball doesn't come to ground for a contest.

The latter requires a team with very good foot skills and to be very disciplined.  We don't have the foot skills to play 'control' football.  And tbh I'm not sure we have the on-field footy nous to implement it.

Footy cycles are a fascinating thing. If what you’re saying is true then we’ve done a full loop. It was only five years ago that Richmond were playing the slow, uncontested style of football that got them to finals but no further.

I think the key is what holds up in the home and away season may not necessarily hold up in September.

Posted
4 minutes ago, P-man said:

Footy cycles are a fascinating thing. If what you’re saying is true then we’ve done a full loop. It was only five years ago that Richmond were playing the slow, uncontested style of football that got them to finals but no further.

I think the key is what holds up in the home and away season may not necessarily hold up in September.

Hawthorn managed quite well in September ;)

  • Like 1
Posted
2 minutes ago, P-man said:

Footy cycles are a fascinating thing. If what you’re saying is true then we’ve done a full loop. It was only five years ago that Richmond were playing the slow, uncontested style of football that got them to finals but no further.

I think the key is what holds up in the home and away season may not necessarily hold up in September.

Quite a few articles about 'chaos' vs 'control' (or 'possession') football were written during our 2018 finals. 

The contest is still key if the ball comes to ground.  Both styles can hold up in September as shown by Bulldogs/Rich on the 'chaos' style and WCE and Hawthorn on the 'control' style.  That is no coincidence as Simpson was a Clarkson protege during Hawks halcyon days.

As noted I don't think we have the skills to play 'control' football so we need to find a way to counter it.

 

  • Like 1

Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Watson11 said:

Not since 2015.  Haven’t won a final.

Possibly because they gave away some of their best kicks and smartest players (Hill, Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge) in the following years; guys who had the nous to control the team on the field.  Their replacements need time to catch on and mature.

It will be interesting to see how the Lions evolve this year - wouldn't be surprised to see them go the 'control' style as their players mature.

Edited by Lucifer's Hero

Posted
3 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Quite a few articles about 'chaos' vs 'control' (or 'possession') football were written during our 2018 finals. 

The contest is still key if the ball comes to ground.  Both styles can hold up in September as shown by Bulldogs/Rich on the 'chaos' style and WCE and Hawthorn on the 'control' style.  That is no coincidence as Simpson was a Clarkson protege during Hawks halcyon days.

As noted I don't think we have the skills to play 'control' football so we need to find a way to counter it.

 

If you think back to early 2000’s control footy started at Port Adelaide when Clarkson was an assistant.  Port consistently finished top after home and away playing it, but consistently bombed out in finals.  Back in those days there was no such thing as zones, it was all man on man defence.  Port had to develop extra plans to win the flag, and they did.  

Is man on man defence a better counter to the control game plan. Definitely sides would need to work harder to defend.

Posted
4 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Quite a few articles about 'chaos' vs 'control' (or 'possession') football were written during our 2018 finals. 

The contest is still key if the ball comes to ground.  Both styles can hold up in September as shown by Bulldogs/Rich on the 'chaos' style and WCE and Hawthorn on the 'control' style.  That is no coincidence as Simpson was a Clarkson protege during Hawks halcyon days.

As noted I don't think we have the skills to play 'control' football so we need to find a way to counter it.

 

Granted Hawthorn were ridiculously good at keepings off. Eagles were still strong in the contest and the numbers were fairly even in the GF.

Even though it’s Round 2 I think you’re right in that early signs are showing the teams with a greater ability to retain possession will fare better this season. One thing we have in our favour is an innovative coaching team.

  • Like 4
Posted

Richmond constantly allowed the Pies to chip the ball around half back. From the TV, the Tigers has 5-6 players in a line in the middle going across the ground and seemed happy to allow the Pies to methodically move the ball from one side of the ground to the other hoping eventually it would be turned over up the field and rebound.

It felt like I was watching the round ball where a team parks the bus and waits for a counter. A poster here a while back started a thread about a basketball team that plays a full on press all game for good results. Richmond rarely pressured the controlled slow Collingwood ball movement out of defence. 

FWIW Hawthorn just about lost all the stats last week, possessions -73, contested -18 and uncontested - 64, inside 50s yet walked away with a 32 point win in Adelaide. 

Probably a bit early to determine whether the zone defence is dead, but a good talking point nonetheless.

  • Like 3
Posted (edited)

I disagree that we don't have the personnel to implement the control game style. Collingwood's kicking is pretty ordinary at times. This was even demonstrated last night at times and I don't think they could have played much better as a team.

The key to the control game style is that the kicks are going to uncontested situations. It's far easier to nail a kick to an uncontested position rather than kick to the advantage of a team mate where there is less room for error. There is a tendency to bite off more tha  you can chew with a contested kick and the contest can be halved easily if the kick to advantage is not precise.

A lot of it's about spread IMO and that's where Collingwood's speed is helpful to their list and suited to their game style.

Whereas, we've built a list around contested beasts whose contested possessions will stand up in finals.

Given our lack of speed (particularly in the forward half), it makes perfect sense that we adopt a fast and chaotic style that can be implemented directly after winning the contested possession.

The problem with the chaotic style is that it solely relies on much more taxing work rate to execute pressure and when it is non existent, as it was last night for Richmond, or even slightly off, the game style is severely compromised.

The control game style however is less taxing on the team in possession of the ball and just requires spreading, but makes the opposition work overtime even to regain possession. 

I think we could play the control game style and we were playing it at times across 2015-2017. But given our lack of contested marks and our lack of speed, I would potentially still lean towards us playing chaotic football.

However, given our seeming lack of fitness at the moment, it might actually be better to try the control game style (with less fitness needed) for a few weeks until we've gained some much needed fitness.

Ideally, I'd like us to cultivate a third unique style. It'll be interesting to see if we change things up tomorrow.

Edited by A F
  • Like 3
Posted
18 minutes ago, Watson11 said:

If you think back to early 2000’s control footy started at Port Adelaide when Clarkson was an assistant.  Port consistently finished top after home and away playing it, but consistently bombed out in finals.  Back in those days there was no such thing as zones, it was all man on man defence.  Port had to develop extra plans to win the flag, and they did.  

Is man on man defence a better counter to the control game plan. Definitely sides would need to work harder to defend.

Clarkson may well have been the one who put the finishing touches on Port's 'control' style.  He left when they won the premiership and refined it at Hawthorn and importantly recruits players who can play that style.

I'm not sure man-on-man defence has gone out of the game but equally not sure if it is enough to counter 'control' football when a team is very good at it.

I think it is true to say that defence evolves from game style.  I would think that zone and man-on-man defence can work with 'chaos' and 'control' game styles.

  • Like 1

Posted

A third unique and innovative style? Yes.

Play two big ruckman, set up mismatches (tall v short, fast v slow, one on one match ups) and attack the perceived weak links in the opposition.

Oops, without runners how do we set this up as a dynamic model during the game? Smoke signals from the bench or cleverly crafted code messages on the sign boards?

I know it will work but how do we implement it?

 

 

  • Like 2
Posted
24 minutes ago, A F said:

The problem with the chaotic style is that it solely relies on much more taxing work rate to execute pressure and when it is non existent, as it was last night for Richmond, or even slightly off, the game style is severely compromised.

The control game style however is less taxing on the team in possession of the ball and just requires spreading, but makes the opposition work overtime even to regain possession. 

Agree the chaos game requires possession. If the opposition denies possession there is simply not enough forward forays to kick an adequate score.Last season while we kicked good scores we were relatively inefficient.

Great discussion.

Posted

It's far far too early to tell and too easy to jump to conclusions

obviously new game plans are required both offensively and defensively and these will take months (or more) to evolve

toss in the fact that it is season start and many players and teams are still a little rusty

we may not have a very clear picture till the bye time

  • Like 1

Posted

I actually thought our game...chaos footy was more about ball movement, relentless pressure etc.  Not.... possession as such.

Just my thoughts

  • Like 2
Posted
32 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

I actually thought our game...chaos footy was more about ball movement, relentless pressure etc.  Not.... possession as such.

Just my thoughts

Well, you need possession in the first place in order to get the footy into dangerous areas to pressure and creating scoring chances.

We rely on our contested possessions to gain metres and then pressure the opposition into giving up scores in their defensive 50. Same idea as Richmond, except their play was/is based more off slingshot, given their centre clearance work was/is ordinary.

Posted
1 hour ago, Watson11 said:

Richmond, us, and a few other teams rely heavily on zone defence. Richmond have been by far the best at it, but last night they were completely dismantled by Collingwoods game plan to counter it.

Did Collingwood just have an amazing night, or will good teams now consistently dismantle zone defences?  

The key factor missed here is that, as with the prelim final, it was mild night. Richmond's manic press works best under greasy conditions and both times against the Pies they copped perfect conditions for kicking and marking and both times they went small in the hope that the ball would be spilling onto the ground - which it wasn't.

   

  • Like 3
Posted

It is not possible to read anything in terms of defensive structures from the Richmond-Collinwood game. 

Richmond lost Rance, their best defender.  Collingwood have Cox the tallest player in the league. 

 

  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, george_on_the_outer said:

It is not possible to read anything in terms of defensive structures from the Richmond-Collinwood game. 

Richmond lost Rance, their best defender.  Collingwood have Cox the tallest player in the league. 

 

Richmond had the 2nd most inside 50s last year because even though they lost centre clearances, they would intercept and transition quickly to their forward 50 and then lock it in.  They zone up and pressure well when sides are trying to transition out of defence and create lots of intercepts and repeat inside 50s.  Watching last night, Collingwood just picked their zone apart repeatedly and Cox and Rance were not the reason.  In fact, Rance would have made zero difference last night as Richmond’s defence last night was defending a lot of uncontested kicks into the forward 50.

 

  • Like 1
Posted
3 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

 

As noted I don't think we have the skills to play 'control' football so we need to find a way to counter it.

 

Something that is exacerbated by our lack of pace. And the wide spaces of the G

And if we are not switched on and really prepared (and able it must be said - if not fit enough we will struggle. Port played us n break spreading and absolutely smashed us in uncontested ball, in large part because we ran out of gas) to gut run to limit the uncontested ball we are in trouble

Against the Hawks we had clear plan to reduce the number of uncontested possessions and get across to hold up players up if they did get an uncontested mark (as i remarked on the DL podcast i could see the message board in the dug out with my binos from my seat and there was big emphasis on this). It worked and Hawks could not control the game.

Conversely we simply could not achieve this against West Coast  who were relentless at spreading and hitting up uncontested player (and then suddenly  rushing it forward). A combination of the heat, payers running out gas, the occasion, the huge and very taxing preceding  weeks, the size of the ground and how well West Coast executed their plan meant we were toast.

I think kardina park suits us because the cats do not have the space to spread us and there is invariably more congestion. 

Posted

Another aspect of last night is that the game allowed the Collingwood defence to sit back around the halfback line. Accordingly when Richmond got the ball and tried to go forward the Collingwood defenders were there ready and waiting.

The way to counter Collingwood is to relax the zone slightly. Sure it makes the zone easier to penetrate but it denies the continued uncontested possessions which were allowed to Collingwood. Just need a few turnovers and the Pies game would have looked second rate.

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    TRAINING: Friday 22nd November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers were out in force on a scorching morning out at Gosch's Paddock for the final session before the whole squad reunites for the Preseason Training Camp. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS It’s going to be a scorcher today but I’m in the shade at Gosch’s Paddock ready to bring you some observations from the final session before the Preseason Training Camp next week.  Salem, Fritsch & Campbell are already on the track. Still no number on Campbell’s

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports 3

    UP IN LIGHTS by Whispering Jack

    Those who watched the 2024 Marsh AFL National Championships closely this year would not be particularly surprised that Melbourne selected Victoria Country pair Harvey Langford and Xavier Lindsay on the first night of the AFL National Draft. The two left-footed midfielders are as different as chalk and cheese but they had similar impacts in their Coates Talent League teams and in the National Championships in 2024. Their interstate side was edged out at the very end of the tournament for tea

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Special Features

    TRAINING: Wednesday 20th November 2024

    It’s a beautiful cool morning down at Gosch’s Paddock and I’ve arrived early to bring you my observations from today’s session. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Reigning Keith Bluey Truscott champion Jack Viney is the first one out on the track.  Jack’s wearing the red version of the new training guernsey which is the only version available for sale at the Demon Shop. TRAINING: Viney, Clarry, Lever, TMac, Rivers, Petty, McVee, Bowey, JVR, Hore, Tom Campbell (in tr

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    TRAINING: Monday 18th November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers ventured down to Gosch's Paddock for the final week of training for the 1st to 4th Years until they are joined by the rest of the senior squad for Preseason Training Camp in Mansfield next week. WAYNE RUSSELL'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS No Ollie, Chin, Riv today, but Rick & Spargs turned up and McDonald was there in casual attire. Seston, and Howes did a lot of boundary running, and Tom Campbell continued his work with individual trainer in non-MFC

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    2024 Player Reviews: #11 Max Gawn

    Champion ruckman and brilliant leader, Max Gawn earned his seventh All-Australian team blazer and constantly held the team up on his shoulders in what was truly a difficult season for the Demons. Date of Birth: 30 December 1991 Height: 209cm Games MFC 2024: 21 Career Total: 224 Goals MFC 2024: 11 Career Total: 109 Brownlow Medal Votes: 13 Melbourne Football Club: 2nd Best & Fairest: 405 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 12

    2024 Player Reviews: #36 Kysaiah Pickett

    The Demons’ aggressive small forward who kicks goals and defends the Demons’ ball in the forward arc. When he’s on song, he’s unstoppable but he did blot his copybook with a three week suspension in the final round. Date of Birth: 2 June 2001 Height: 171cm Games MFC 2024: 21 Career Total: 106 Goals MFC 2024: 36 Career Total: 161 Brownlow Medal Votes: 3 Melbourne Football Club: 4th Best & Fairest: 369 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 5

    TRAINING: Friday 15th November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers took advantage of the beautiful sunshine to head down to Gosch's Paddock and witness the return of Clayton Oliver to club for his first session in the lead up to the 2025 season. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Clarry in the house!! Training: JVR, McVee, Windsor, Tholstrup, Woey, Brown, Petty, Adams, Chandler, Turner, Bowey, Seston, Kentfield, Laurie, Sparrow, Viney, Rivers, Jefferson, Hore, Howes, Verrall, AMW, Clarry Tom Campbell is here

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    2024 Player Reviews: #7 Jack Viney

    The tough on baller won his second Keith 'Bluey' Truscott Trophy in a narrow battle with skipper Max Gawn and Alex Neal-Bullen and battled on manfully in the face of a number of injury niggles. Date of Birth: 13 April 1994 Height: 178cm Games MFC 2024: 23 Career Total: 219 Goals MFC 2024: 10 Career Total: 66 Brownlow Medal Votes: 8

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 3

    TRAINING: Wednesday 13th November 2024

    A couple of Demonland Trackwatchers braved the rain and headed down to Gosch's paddock to bring you their observations from the second day of Preseason training for the 1st to 4th Year players. DITCHA'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS I attended some of the training today. Richo spoke to me and said not to believe what is in the media, as we will good this year. Jefferson and Kentfield looked big and strong.  Petty was doing all the training. Adams looked like he was in rehab.  KE

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!
×
×
  • Create New...