9 minutes ago, RedButMostlyBlue said:

I feel like this club is my Volkswagen Golf from earlier this century. It nearly killed me a few times (some electrical fault), but my mechanic, Carlos, kept telling me it was just fine, and that the car wouldn't hurt me anymore...

We're taking it one clashed gear change at a time. And we're learning from each near fatal collision.

41 minutes ago, MSFebey said:

Mate, my JD is a beast!!!

6 minutes ago, Macca said:

The other teams who are where we are have the same sort of issues ... they lose games they should win,  put in average performances against decent opposition and then win games that offer great hope.   We are not alone but for some reason we've been pigeon-holed as a team that should be doing a lot  better.

The other weakness we have is that we can sometimes be very slow away from the stoppages ... but the only team that is consistently quick away from the stoppages is Richmond.  Hate to say but it's their flag to lose.   Their last 6 - 8 players picked are miles better than any other team.

As for our last 6 or 8 players picked ... collectively they are simply not good enough and only a couple/few of those 6 - 8 players have a chance at being bona-fide good footballers.  It's a bit hard to contend with that issue. 

I think we're very similar to Geelong list wise except their best players in Dangerfield, Selwood, Duncan are all in their prime, our mids are still getting there. Plus their superstar key forward has decided to have the best month or so of his career as he turns 30 whilst our main man in Hogan is battling.

 

10 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Backline:
Quality players: Lever, Hibberd, Jetta, Salem
Maybe players: Frost, Oscar, Lewis, Joel Smith, Hunt (underdone), Vince, Pedersen, Wagner

Midfield:
Quality players: Gawn, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes, Jones
Maybe players: Fritsch (looks good but it's his first year), Tyson, JKH, Stretch, Maynard

Forwards:
Quality players: T Mc, Petracca, Hogan, Melksham
Maybe players: Spargo, Garlett, Vanders, ANB, Kent, Hannan, T Smith, Weids etc etc

4 of our best 14 out.
No reliable pure wingman
No reliable small forward
No reliable genuine stopping key defenders

It's not a ferrari. It's got a big engine but is missing luxury and some parts are downright dodgy. What does that make it?

Chev Belair?

3 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Backline:
Quality players: Lever, Hibberd, Jetta, Salem
Maybe players: Frost, Oscar, Lewis, Joel Smith, Hunt (underdone), Vince, Pedersen, Wagner

Midfield:
Quality players: Gawn, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes, Jones
Maybe players: Fritsch (looks good but it's his first year), Tyson, JKH, Stretch, Maynard

Forwards:
Quality players: T Mc, Petracca, Hogan, Melksham
Maybe players: Spargo, Garlett, Vanders, ANB, Kent, Hannan, T Smith, Weids etc etc

4 of our best 14 out.
No reliable pure wingman
No reliable small forward
No reliable genuine stopping key defenders

It's not a ferrari. It's got a big engine but is missing luxury and some parts are downright dodgy. What does that make it?

Good analysis DS but we differ on a few ...

Quality players are only quality players if they can produce the goods 4 out of 5 games.  Or perhaps 3 out of 4.  Beat their opposite number or impact games.  Over time in a consistent manner.

So Petracca,  Melksham,  Harmes & Jetta fall short.  That is not to say that any or all of them aren't on the cusp but they are not there yet.  3 are on the rise whilst 1 is struggling for his best form.   Salem & Brayshaw have stepped it up. 

A top 4 team would be able to cover for our injured 4 but we are not a top 4 team in the traditional sense.

10 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

We're taking it one clashed gear change at a time. And we're learning from each near fatal collision.

Well, the Golf didn't kill me, so there's that haha.

I feel much the same, but that doesn't stop me cursing at the sky everytime the Golf leaves me stranded on the road.

Pretty young side, but i judge others by myself, so i'm gonna stick with them........

3 minutes ago, RedButMostlyBlue said:

Well, the Golf didn't kill me, so there's that haha.

I feel much the same, but that doesn't stop me cursing at the sky everytime the Golf leaves me stranded on the road.

With one good preseason, it will finally fulfill its potential

17 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

With one good preseason, it will finally fulfill its potential

Yeah, I'm with you on that.

We're so close, I think it's just extra frustrating right now for everyone because we are so close, and haven't been this close in a long, long time.

If we make the 8 this year, that's as far as we can have hoped (especially given the early Lever injury, being the major difference from '17), although once we're there anything can happen. Regardless of outcome, next year will be all about punishing other teams, because we will have been born in fire (our very dark recent history, and learnings).

Bring it on.

3 hours ago, Macca said:

Good analysis DS but we differ on a few ...

Quality players are only quality players if they can produce the goods 4 out of 5 games.  Or perhaps 3 out of 4.  Beat their opposite number or impact games.  Over time in a consistent manner.

So Petracca,  Melksham,  Harmes & Jetta fall short.  That is not to say that any or all of them aren't on the cusp but they are not there yet.  3 are on the rise whilst 1 is struggling for his best form.   Salem & Brayshaw have stepped it up. 

A top 4 team would be able to cover for our injured 4 but we are not a top 4 team in the traditional sense.

It's a small sample size I'll give you that but I think Harmes when played in the midfield this year counts. His last month has been excellent and he had a stretch of games from rounds 6-8 and another after that in the midfield when very good as well.

Jetta got beat badly on Queens B'day, and has otherwise had some bad moments late in games, most likely because he's battling through injuries. The guy should've been AA last year though and wins his match up more weeks than not, I'm willing to concede him a few bad days and still class him as a very good player.

Melksham leads the entire league in goal assists. He's a frustrating and inconsistent player week to week or even contest to contest sure but he sets up goals and can win aerial contests. 

Petracca I feel the same about, and whether he's consistent or not he has the talent. He's in the category of player a coach should get more out of and hopefully that happens over time.

My grades were really for separating the players I think Goody should create a good team out of from the ones who are a work in progress or filling spots. 

These guys are 8, 9, 10 and 11th in the Demonland voting. Did we get it wrong?

7 hours ago, jackaub said:

More like Goody and the Electric vehicle

Too different and complex for him to drive No levers or buttons 

Exactly.

With Lever, we'd already have locked in top eight. 

In fact, we'd be talking about locking in top two and a home prelim.

Edited August 13, 20186 yr by Rogue

9 minutes ago, Rogue said:

Exactly.

With Lever, we'd already have locked in top eight. 

In fact, we'd be talking about locking in top two and a home prelim.

Valid point @Rogue, it got me thinking about how Goodwin has gone about it sans Lever - maybe Goodwin is looking large scale consistently.  Supporters see stubborness, which is fair enough, perhaps Goodwin says players play the role whatever, irrespective of who comes in to fill the role - to learn the role on game day - even at the overall expense of 'potentially' losing a match. Because its about learning the craft under pressure on game day, in the system that he thinks works.

Now... the system would presumably work really bloody well if Lever and Hibbered were in... and they're not, and this is the discrepency - no players who would typically fill the void - so you bring in someone else (petty, smith, frost, pederson) you then start rejigging the system to accomodate their lesser skill sets - and that then throws everything else out of balance...a cascade effect if you will - for the worse.

Edited August 13, 20186 yr by Danelska

Our list is as good as anyone else but what we lack is 50-70 games TOGETHER as a unit to develop experience and understanding.

FCOL it is Clarry's, Tracc's and Gus's third season (allowing for Tracca and Gus losing a year to injury). Hibbert and Melksham are in their second year in this unit, Lever has at least one full season to get to know his mates, Spargo is in his first year (and shows the goods to become a classy rover), Fritsch, Hunt and Frosty have played only a handful of games together as a back line unit and so non.

Swans beat us with experience - knowing where to run and where to kick - their core group have been playing together as a unit for years. Think of how long it took the cats and toiges to gel into dominant teams.

Can't wait for 2020.

At round 22 it still feels like we are trying to find a best 22! While most clubs (even with injuries) are mostly settled by around R5

10 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

It's a small sample size I'll give you that but I think Harmes when played in the midfield this year counts. His last month has been excellent and he had a stretch of games from rounds 6-8 and another after that in the midfield when very good as well.

Jetta got beat badly on Queens B'day, and has otherwise had some bad moments late in games, most likely because he's battling through injuries. The guy should've been AA last year though and wins his match up more weeks than not, I'm willing to concede him a few bad days and still class him as a very good player.

Melksham leads the entire league in goal assists. He's a frustrating and inconsistent player week to week or even contest to contest sure but he sets up goals and can win aerial contests. 

Petracca I feel the same about, and whether he's consistent or not he has the talent. He's in the category of player a coach should get more out of and hopefully that happens over time.

My grades were really for separating the players I think Goody should create a good team out of from the ones who are a work in progress or filling spots. 

These guys are 8, 9, 10 and 11th in the Demonland voting. Did we get it wrong?

The bottom line is that I don't rate the list that highly and we're about where I thought we'd be with regards to ladder position and with regards to our win/loss ratio.   And my argument has been a consistent one too. 

And I don't overrate players or underrate them either ... there is no bias, no favour,  no one player is ever in the gun nor do I play favourites.  Petracca,  Melksham,  Jetta & Harmes aren't match-winners nor do they impact games to a point where I can categorically call them good players.

And to me a good player is a player who plays well in 4 out of 5 games,  impacts games in that period of games or beats his opposite number for that amount of games.

Other people might use a more descriptive word than just good - like very good,  excellent or gun.  I've always just used the word good. 

If we had 15 or 16 good players we would be winning more games (even with the 4 injured players)  Losing these close games against decent opposition is no surprise to me ... if we were winning them it wouldn't be much of a surprise either.  We're talking fine lines here.

8 hours ago, jackaub said:

Too different and complex for him to drive No levers or buttons

Yep.  Ever since someone broke the LEVER, we haven't been able to get out of 1st gear!

I think we can use the car analogy in a different way:

Racecars:  Gawn, Oliver, Brayshaw, TMAC, Hibbard, Melksham, Hogan

Looks good in the showroom:  Petracca, Hunt

Up on the hoist:  Lever, Stretch and Viney

Clapped out and heading for the tip: Vince, Balic

Modified for improved performance in 2018: Harmes, ANB, Fritsch, Salem, OMac, 

Still a few miles in the old girl: Jones, Pedo, Bugg, Kent, Tyson, Jeffy, AVB, Lewis

Just running in: Spargo, Weidemann

Still on the lot: Baker, Kielty, Petty

One owner, only driven to church on Sundays. 

5 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Backline:
Quality players: Lever, Hibberd, Jetta, Salem
Maybe players: Frost, Oscar, Lewis, Joel Smith, Hunt (underdone), Vince, Pedersen, Wagner

Midfield:
Quality players: Gawn, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes, Jones
Maybe players: Fritsch (looks good but it's his first year), Tyson, JKH, Stretch, Maynard

Forwards:
Quality players: T Mc, Petracca, Hogan, Melksham
Maybe players: Spargo, Garlett, Vanders, ANB, Kent, Hannan, T Smith, Weids etc etc

4 of our best 14 out.
No reliable pure wingman
No reliable small forward
No reliable genuine stopping key defenders

It's not a ferrari. It's got a big engine but is missing luxury and some parts are downright dodgy. What does that make it?

Midfield you can take out Jones and Viney two players hard at it but no football brains just try to barge through or bomb it long to no one we need a Gaff type players around the ball.

1 hour ago, Macca said:

And to me a good player is a player who plays well in 4 out of 5 games,  impacts games in that period of games or beats his opposite number for that amount of games.

 

I think you're being harsh on Jetta on this basis.  Rarely beaten for mine!

Just now, davejemmolly said:

I think you're being harsh on Jetta on this basis.  Rarely beaten for mine!

He is down on form this year and again,  it's not that I don't want to rate Jetta highly it's just that his absolute best form is needed to be classed as a true difference maker.   But it's only 1 player Dave ... in the whole scheme of things we are still 5 or 6 good players away from being a genuine consistent contender.  Lewis I included but only just - we need him to be a distributor,  not as a ball winning in and under in crowded areas.  That is not his go these days.

My ambition for the list is to 5 goals better than the 2nd best team ... at various stages of football history we've seen any number of teams achieve that ideal.  Multiple flags often eventuate from that position of strength.  We've been there ourselves but that was a long time ago.

We are in a far far better position now than what we were 10 years ago or even 5 years ago but we are still a fair way off.  But that is just my opinion ... others are free to disagree.

With the salary cap and the draft it's very hard to add any more than 2 or 3 good players in any given season ... so to get to a really strong position with regards to the list requires great recruiting and a fair dose of luck.

16 minutes ago, Macca said:

He is down on form this year and again,  it's not that I don't want to rate Jetta highly it's just that his absolute best form is needed to be classed as a true difference maker.   But it's only 1 player Dave ... in the whole scheme of things we are still 5 or 6 good players away from being a genuine consistent contender.  Lewis I included but only just - we need him to be a distributor,  not as a ball winning in and under in crowded areas.  That is not his go these days.

My ambition for the list is to 5 goals better than the 2nd best team ... at various stages of football history we've seen any number of teams achieve that ideal.  Multiple flags often eventuate from that position of strength.  We've been there ourselves but that was a long time ago.

We are in a far far better position now than what we were 10 years ago or even 5 years ago but we are still a fair way off.  But that is just my opinion ... others are free to disagree.

With the salary cap and the draft it's very hard to add any more than 2 or 3 good players in any given season ... so to get to a really strong position with regards to the list requires great recruiting and a fair dose of luck.

I understand where you're coming from mate, and I completely agree.

It's long been said that you're only as good as your bottom six, and sadly, our bottom six have been found wanting when the spotlight has been on us this year.

That being said, my goals for the club aren't as lofty as some. Despite desperately wanting us to play well and make finals,  perhaps being from Perth, I don't have the time / water cooler investment than a lot of you 'dyed in the wool' have.

A few years ago, we were unwatchable, and at that time, all I wanted was to still be in the game at half time.

As we got, better, all I wanted to was to be in the game at 3/4 time, then around the place at full time.

Then I wanted us to stop having the 'melbourne' losses, against dockers etc  (St Kilda this year not withstanding).

Clearly we're on the right track. Our top end talent is all under 25, and pleasingly, falling over themselves to re-sign with the club for extended periods. 

Did I want to dominate 2018 and pinch a flag.. bloody oath i did.

Am i devastated that Clarrie hasn't almost single handedly dragged us into the 4, not really.

Given where we have been for the last 12 years, and the 50 before that, I can wait another year.

Especially with the list we have, and the potential in that list.... so long as we're learning goody's lessons now.

As much as I'd love a flag in 2018. I'll take 3 flags out of 6  between 2020 - 2025

Edited August 13, 20186 yr by davejemmolly

1 hour ago, tiers said:

Our list is as good as anyone else but what we lack is 50-70 games TOGETHER as a unit to develop experience and understanding.

FCOL it is Clarry's, Tracc's and Gus's third season (allowing for Tracca and Gus losing a year to injury). Hibbert and Melksham are in their second year in this unit, Lever has at least one full season to get to know his mates, Spargo is in his first year (and shows the goods to become a classy rover), Fritsch, Hunt and Frosty have played only a handful of games together as a back line unit and so non.

Swans beat us with experience - knowing where to run and where to kick - their core group have been playing together as a unit for years. Think of how long it took the cats and toiges to gel into dominant teams.

Can't wait for 2020.

The Swans know that because they have been coached that way! You can wait until 2020 but the coaching needs to change.

9 hours ago, jackaub said:

More like Goody and the Electric vehicle

Too different and complex for him to drive No levers or buttons

Some days we look like a Billy Cart.

Slow with poor direction.

8 minutes ago, davejemmolly said:

I understand where you're coming from mate, and I completely agree.

It's long been said that you're only as good as your bottom six, and sadly, our bottom six have been found wanting when the spotlight has been on us this year.

That being said, my goals for the club aren't as lofty as some. Despite desperately wanting us to play well and make finals,  perhaps being from Perth, I don't have the time / water cooler investment than a lot of you 'dyed in the wool' have.

A few years ago, we were unwatchable, and at that time, all I wanted was to still be in the game at half time.

As we got, better, all I wanted to was to be in the game at 3/4 time, then around the place at full time.

Then I wanted us to stop having the 'melbourne' losses, against dockers etc  (St Kilda this year not withstanding).

Clearly we're on the right track. Our top end talent is all under 25, and pleasingly, falling over themselves to re-sign with the club for extended periods. 

Did I want to dominate 2018 and pinch a flag.. bloody oath i did.

Am i devastated that Clarrie hasn't almost single handedly dragged us into the 4, not really.

Given where we have been for the last 12 years, and the 50 before that, I can wait another year.

Especially with the list we have, and the potential in that list.... so long as we're learning goody's lessons now.

As much as I'd love a flag in 2018. I'll take 3 flags out of 6 in 2020 - 2026

This is one of the most considered, balanced posts I've read today! Love your positivity.

This line of thinking is the only thing that keeps me going in these times haha. We've been through such dark moments, that it's almost too easy to want, and crave instant success, especially given that we are treated to glimpses of the goods here and there. It's breathtaking.

It's not happening now the way we want, but in time the moments will become more sustained, more frequent, and more freaking ferocious ?

1 minute ago, davejemmolly said:

I understand where you're coming from mate, and I completely agree.

It's long been said that you're only as good as your bottom six, and sadly, our bottom six have been found wanting when the spotlight has been on us this year.

That being said, my goals for the club aren't as lofty as some. Despite desperately wanting us to play well and make finals,  perhaps being from Perth, I don't have the time / water cooler investment than a lot of you 'dyed in the wool' have.

A few years ago, we were unwatchable, and at that time, all I wanted was to still be in the game at half time.

As we got, better, all I wanted to was to be in the game at 3/4 time, then around the place at full time.

Then I wanted us to stop having the 'melbourne' losses, against dockers etc  (St Kilda this year not withstanding).

Clearly we're on the right track. Our top end talent is all under 25, and pleasingly, falling over themselves to re-sign with the club for extended periods. 

Did I want to dominate 2018 and pinch a flag.. bloody oath i did.

Am i devastated that Clarrie hasn't almost single handedly dragged us into the 4, not really.

Given where we have been for the last 12 years, and the 50 before that, I can wait another year.

Especially with the list we have, and the potential in that list.... so long as we're learning goody's lessons now.

As much as I'd love a flag in 2018. I'll take 3 flags out of 6 in 2020 - 2026

We are building nicely ... but we've hit that spot where we are testing ourselves against good opposition and we keep coming up short.  It's frustrating because we're in a hurry to be successful ... supporters don't like losing and they're going to vent.  That's fair enough too. 

Me ... I want the list to be so strong that the close losses don't happen.  Goodwin is a winner and he will hate these losses as well but he needs to keep a cool head.  Ignore the noise and stay the course will be his M.O. 

At other times I've seen very little to be enthused about and have said as much ... this place included.  I have genuine hope this time around but we need some more good players - preferably with a yard of pace. 

As for the present ... win next week and we are in the hunt again.  All is not lost.