Carlton, Fitzroy & Enron

[Apocalypse XXXI 243]

According to the Blues' former money man they're sicker than Fitzroy off the field but I have some news for him. They're also sicker than Fitzroy was on field. In the five seasons before Fitzroy's demise in the AFL, they won a total of 27 matches. Carlton have won just 24 games (2 draws) in the last five years. Here are the numbers:

FITZROY

1996 – 1 win

1995 – 2 wins

1994 – 5 wins

1993 – 10 wins

1992 – 9 wins

27 wins in final five years in the AFL

CARLTON

2006 – 3 wins 1 draw

2005 – 4 wins 1 draw

2004 – 10 wins

2003 – 4 wins

2002 – 3 wins

24 wins and 2 draws in the last five years

My conclusion is that the Blues and the Kangaroos be merged and moved to the Gold Coast as the Northern Kangaroos. Colours navy blue and white.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

This stuff makes me nervous. You know pretty soon people are going to be saying "Melbourne Blues" or something, since the jumpers would look something like the current one we have now with the CFC symbol over the top in white. I hate all this crap, just because we are financially weak NOW we have to cop it. We also share colours with the dogs, as well as one colour with the roos. I've heard people say that the fanbases of the Roos and Dees wouldnt be compatible, but the fanbases of the dees and blues would fit ok. The whole lot of this is garbage.

I don't want to see a merger, even if we are still the Melbourne "somethings." If it's anything but the red and blue that the boys are running around in I just can't see myself getting excited about the game anymore.

That said, I know of one Demonlander who is an ex Fitzroy fan who has only last year gotten excited about his newly adopted club. I'm fascinated by this, and still don't understand how he can handle it.

This comp will likely lose 2 Victorian based teams soon, and maybe 4 in the long haul. Being one of the 3 poorest clubs is bad enough, but being poor NOW is just the worst timing. We may be in for a fight in the next decade or two, and while I'm not looking forward to it, I'm prepared.

[Jaded No More 68,974]

This comp will likely lose 2 Victorian based teams soon, and maybe 4 in the long haul. Being one of the 3 poorest clubs is bad enough, but being poor NOW is just the worst timing. We may be in for a fight in the next decade or two, and while I'm not looking forward to it, I'm prepared.

Makes being successful and winning a premiership even more important. If you're poor, but you've got silverware, they won't kick you to the dogs.

As much as I hate Carlton, and I really do, it would be terrible to lose them as a Victorian club. Same goes for the Roos.

We need to keep 10 clubs in Victoria, just so that we, as a state, can maintain some sort of hold over AFL football.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Carlton, if run properly (and I mean if) would be one of the marquee Victorian clubs and at the risk of alienating the potential 40,000 members that this Club could pull if half competently run and capably performing on field I dont see the AFL doing it to them. I can see the AFL taking greater hands on control of Carlton going forward

However it would suit the AFL if such talk was allowed to proliferate so as to soften the electorate for the merger/relocation of at least two to three Melb clubs.

Mergers will not occur until the AFL has a bona fide side to fill the void to meet the 16 clubs needed for TV rights.

FWIW, if the Kangas are not based in the Gold Coast within 3 years they are doomed. They cannot survive at the current rate.

IMO, the other Clubs in trouble are Hawthorn (give them 3 to 5 years) and Bulldogs (give them 3 to 5 years). Melbourne is iffy and may only survive as a franchise using the name unless we can turn it around on and off the field.

Only one will survive out of Richmond and St Kilda.

Ultimately the AFL will look something like this in 5 years....

2 WA, 2 SA, 2 Qld, 2 NSW, 1 Tas (Goodbye Hawks), 7 Vic sides. I would not be surprised if this is whittled down to six with another Club for NSW/QLD

The Victorian sides to survive: Essendon, Collingwood, Carlton (Post AFL administration), Geelong (merged with Bullies), Richmond/ Saints (Cant split them), Melbourne( at best on its own otherwise a franchise)

[Jarka 767]

IMO, the other Clubs in trouble are Hawthorn (give them 3 to 5 years) and Bulldogs (give them 3 to 5 years). Melbourne is iffy and may only survive as a franchise using the name unless we can turn it around on and off the field.

I'm interested to hear why you think the hawks will be in trouble. From what I can gather their finances seem to be in front of ours, Kangaroos, Bulldogs, Carlton and possibly Richmond and Geelong, I know they're doing the Tassie thing but I didn't think they were/are in trouble.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Wow. Richmond and St. Kilda you say RR?

Yeah I can see that. St. Kilda, albeit successful now, are not the financial powerhouse everyone seems to think they are.

Richmond I'm not sure about. They seem to be thought of as one of 4 powerhouse clubs in Victoria (whether or not you agree, along with Dons, Pies and "Carlton"), and have maintained this reputation through some of the leanest years of any club (besides the basket cases like the Saints and dogs). If they can survive like that, then you know what it's going to be like if/when they start to win finals.

[Demonster 37]

Ultimately the AFL will look something like this in 5 years....

2 WA, 2 SA, 2 Qld, 2 NSW, 1 Tas (Goodbye Hawks), 7 Vic sides. I would not be surprised if this is whittled down to six with another Club for NSW/QLD

Let's see how the Qld market goes while the Bears are shiite. NSW needs to penetrate the western suburbs yet - a fair way off.

In any case, if NSW & Qld go ahead with 2nd teams they will be partial re-locations with North & Bulldogs playing half games in the adopted state and half in Vic.

All other Victorian teams are safe.

Anyway, great topic Apocolypse - the sheer delight of Carlton's plight.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

This is a question for Nasher or anyone else with some knowledge about Tasmania.

How would an AFL side go down there in terms of support and ultimately finances?

Personally, I would love to see a Tasmanian team in the AFL. For one thing they are an AFL state so competing with the likes of the NRL wouldn't be a problem. Moreover it isn't a case of converting people to a whole new game as a love of footy already exists there.

Obviously the biggest hurdle would be the small population, but to me it just seems the most logical place for either a re-located team or new team all together should that ever be the case.

Thoughts?

[MO FINE 171]

What I want to know is what's going to happen to that $67m project that was contingent upon Smorgon, Rose and Wilson being re-elected now that Rose has disappeared from the scene.

If that's gone what does the Unity ticket stand for at Carlton?

I reckon they should bring back John Elliott. At least he was entertaining!

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I'm interested to hear why you think the hawks will be in trouble. From what I can gather their finances seem to be in front of ours, Kangaroos, Bulldogs, Carlton and possibly Richmond and Geelong, I know they're doing the Tassie thing but I didn't think they were/are in trouble.

My understanding is that finances at Hawthorn are stable but not fantastic. I think there are strategic concerns about the ability of Hawks to expand the reach and value of their franchise. In the past few years, their onfield performance being poor to mediocre has stalled their membership. I have my doubts whether they are seen as a marquee club of the future and there the uncertainty lies. This issue is more than just current financial position but you are right to point out there are a number of clubs with dodgy financial positions and there future is not sound. The Tassie experiment is seen as a way of increasing the reach of the franchise.

[Demon15 0]

Mergers will not occur until the AFL has a bona fide side to fill the void to meet the 16 clubs needed for TV rights.

I disagree.

One day, possibly within 5 years, the AFL will FINALLY realise the only future for the competition is for a conference system, similiar to that successfully operating in all major codes in the U.S.

To start off say.....

Eastern Conference: Brisbane, Sydney, North, Carlton, Essendon, Richmond, St.Kilda, melbourne,

Western conf: Crows, Power, dockers, eagles, Bullies, geelong, Hawks, Collingwood.

Vic. clubs rotate between conferences on some sensible formula,

Finals between top 4 teams, and then a playoff series. then if clubs fold, they do so in even numbers , or merge in even numbers, play each other twice, no ridiculous system of the pies having less travel time than others etc. etc.

Games numbers and rounds to suit TV requirments.

This system will solve all the inherent disadvantages of the current system, which is possibly the most unfair of sporting contests in the known universe. (Someone please explain the relevance of the Anzac day match to me)

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Wow. Richmond and St. Kilda you say RR?

Yeah I can see that. St. Kilda, albeit successful now, are not the financial powerhouse everyone seems to think they are.

Richmond I'm not sure about. They seem to be thought of as one of 4 powerhouse clubs in Victoria (whether or not you agree, along with Dons, Pies and "Carlton"), and have maintained this reputation through some of the leanest years of any club (besides the basket cases like the Saints and dogs). If they can survive like that, then you know what it's going to be like if/when they start to win finals.

Dappa,

St Kilda were insolvent 20 years ago as an entity period without AFL support. I just think that there is a fair downside for St Kilda's future if they get the running of their Club wrong this time and they have nearly 100 years of defeatist culture there to suggest they dont have many rolls of the dice.

Richmond could be one of the marquee clubs of the AFL with a professional well run outfit on and off the field creating a membership of 45 to 50k. But FWIW, the Tigers ability over the last 30 years to eat their own to their own detriment ensures I cannot be confident that they will maxmise their position.

My comments on other Club's future in no way embellishs the cloudy prospects for our own Club. FWIW we still have a large mountain to climb. We are at base camp but at least we know what it is we have to do. We are as vulnerable as any under suspicion.

The Carlton example only highlights how a successful and powerful club can get it wrong so badly.....and so quickly. It highlights how important a cohesive competent and professional Board of Directors is supported by capable and experienced management

[Demon15 0]

The Carlton example only highlights how a successful and powerful club can get it wrong so badly.....and so quickly. It highlights how important a cohesive competent and professional Board of Directors is supported by capable and experienced management

A spot on reflection here.

ND said as much in a recent interview.

The off field pressure is off with a sound Administration. It's up to him now.

I believe the Base camp is in place this year. Time will tell.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

..

An interesting thought PGS

I always have a suspicion at immediately applying measures in the Australia that work in a large populous market like the US where the sports involved dominate their respective markets and respective seasons.

Unfortunately Australian rules operates in a geographically segmented market with a low overall population where AFL is subject to heavy competition from other forms of sport.

At moment 16 clubs playing 8 games a week provides TV content. While the lucrative TV rights contract stipulates that AFL provides 16 teams/8 games a week then my comments stand.

If you really want to explore unfair you may wish to examine UK premier league soccer where Man Utd and Chelsea have a multiple of the dollars other clubs have to attract players. In addition you may wish to consider US Baseball where the NY Mets player salaries are up to eight times those of other poorer clubs.

Competition legacy, geography and demographics in this country will always thwart the level playing field utopia .

[Apocalypse XXXI 243]

This gem comes from www.talkingcarlton.com

ENRON FOOTBALL CLUB by Conno

Graham Smorgon, the Carlton football Club President, has delivered to Carlton what no other past President has ever done - he has made the football world feel universally sorry for the rabble from Princes Park.

In another deparate attempt to cling onto a shaky and pathetic presidency, Smorgon has unveiled new development plans for the club' home.

The club, which is groaning under huge debt and an unsustainable business plan, has decided to undertake a "company breaking" development plan whereby it will turn the AFL backed ground into a debt-backed "community centre". Hilariously, Smorgon is trying to convince club members and the public that "at the conclusion of construction, there should be no debt in the Carlton Football Club". Technically, this may be true. The trading body known as the Carlton Football Club, owner of an AFL license, whose main business is to run a football club, will most likely hold no debt. However Carlton are going to adjust their company structure so that the owner of the development is seemingly a business called "Carlton Football Club Investments Ltd".

This company will hold a massive debt and apparently the ownership of the properties around the ground. In essence, Carlton is trying to do what Enron did in the years before the collapse - show the world that the club is debt free and riding high, when in fact all of the bad news is hidden in a complex corporate structure which leaves the firm in an extremely precarious position.

If Carlton were to argue that they are totally able to distance themselves from the debt and associated risk of the Carlton Football Club Investments Ltd, then they would simply be fibbing. And if they claim that they are going to be receiving all profits and benefits from the development, then again that sounds like a load of bollocks.

How Carlton will benefit entirely without entire ownership, control and liability over this new development is nigh on impossible. It is possible that Carlton has given Babcock & Brown and BankWest the rights to develop, own and operate the facility, while Carlton get a limited income stream from the property. If it works, the winners from this shaky investment will be Babcock & Brown and BankWest - Carlton will get the scraps, if any.

So let’s break down the investment:

$12.5 Million - State Government & AFL

$67 Million - BankWest loan

$25 Million - Babcock & Brown loan

$3 Million - Convertible Note

This all sounds lovely - all this money for Carlton. Or is it? Aren’t all of these millions simply greater loans that Carlton will have to pay back? And what is the purpose of the convertible note? The Herald-Sun claims:

"Four per cent interest is being offered on the notes, which carry a three-year term and can be converted to equity in newly formed Carlton Football Club Investments Ltd or repaid in full.

"The $3 million note proceeds will immediately be provided to the Carlton Football Club, $1.5 million to be used in the stage one redevelopment and $1.5 million to be used to pay out the club’s loan with the AFL," Rose said.

So already, the convertible note holder will hold equity in the Investment body, but the immediate and full benefits will go to the Carlton Football Club. So will the major asset of Carlton Football Club Investments Ltd be the Carlton Football Club itself? In other words, in an effort to remain viable, has Carlton organised a reverse takeover of the Club by two investment banks? Will Carlton be owned by the investment company, not the mmbers? Further, who will own Carlton Football Club Investments Ltd and what assets are on the balance sheet? Will they own the AFL license (or at least use it as collateral to back the venture)?

Finally, who would take on a convertible note which is returning 4% interest?! When the RBA cash rate is at 6.25%, why would you take on an investment that is returning less that a bloody bank account? The only answer is that it is a chance for people to own a part of Carlton. Convertible notes are just that - they convert to equity upon maturation or can be paid back by the issuer. So what equity will the holders have? How much will they own? At 4% one would assume a fair chunk. But again, who is going to be stupid enough to take that dreadful investment? Smorgon would no doubt hope it would be the suckers (called members at other clubs) who would want to "buy a part of Carlton".

This latest manoeuvre is another desparate attempt to cling into the Presidency against all odds. Smorgon is fearful that his Presidency could be snatched at any time by any one of Colin DeLutis, Tom Elliot or Fraser Brown - any of whom would garner far more support at a membership level. For any of those three to take control of a six member board would require only four challengers - so at the last minute, Smorgon raised the number of people on the Carlton board to 12, making any board takeover harder (to win control of 12, you need at least 7 challengers). Then by changing the date of the AGM, it meant any such challenge had to be arranged by January 8, which again meant finding the right people to do the job between Christmas and the New Year period.

All of these political plays organised by their external advisors behind the scenes do not serve the greater good of the Carlton Football Club - they only maintain Smorgon’s hold over the Presidency. Nevertheless, every time the phone rings, Smorgon fears that it will be "the call" which tells him his opponents have the numbers. He is a man living in fear, so comes up with elaborate "pie in the sky" plans to dazzle the membership into supporting him into the future.

What does the rest of the footballing public think? Let me answer on their behalf: watching Carlton decay and suffer is hilarious.

The Golden Goose for the Blues? The only goose at Carlton is Graham Smorgon.

[Demonster 37]

Apocolypse - you've gone from Silver to Gold.

Rhino - 20 years ago, not just the Saints were clinging to life - the entire comp. was. And defeatist cultures? That's what the Bears had before they won 3 flags. History is bunk.

I share your comments 'though on Carlton - watch out Essendon.

[alpha33 325]

Apparently Smorgon was voted out when the votes were counted tonight.

Taj Mahal Mark II will not therefore be built at Princes Park after all.

[praha 11,240]

Carlton was once a power club. They have the fans, just not the success. I don't think they will fold/merge, and I think we have a better chance of not existing in the next 10-15 years than Carlton because even when we are successful, we still struggle to meet off field goals, although the last two years have been great. If can finish 9th-13th the next two seasons, we'll see a dramatic increase in membership and crowds for that club. They have plenty of supporters. In the 90s, they were the one team I dreaded playing because we were always greatly outnumbered. They used to fill the Southern Stand with dark blue. Especially around 94/95.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Rhino - 20 years ago, not just the Saints were clinging to life - the entire comp. was. And defeatist cultures? That's what the Bears had before they won 3 flags. History is bunk.

My comment was to Dappa in regard to St Kilda. At least half the comp was financial struggling or tenuously so in age just prior to full time professionalism. With the exception of possibly Essendon and Hawthorn, club's management were often crude, incompetent and financially unsophisticated (rather like Carlton today ).

I am not sure that "History is bunk" is relevant as there are always lessons to be learnt. History also shows how few people have learnt them.

[demonfanjezza 1]

What is so similar between Carlton, Fitzroy and Enron is that they start off well, have success, at towards the end of their life as a business they start to fade and go out of business. No more success.

Just my 2 cents worth

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

What is so similar between Carlton, Fitzroy and Enron is that they start off well, have success, at towards the end of their life as a business they start to fade and go out of business. No more success.

Just my 2 cents worth

Fitzroy has always had a history of battling the odds. Unfortunately post WWII the odds became increasingly greater.

[Chelly 827]

Everything's changed since [censored] Pratt became President of Enron.

They now have enough money to bail out Lance Whitnall and Heath Scotland if they happen to land in ot water after this morning's 5 am altercation outside a Ballarat Pub.

More power to the Enron Football Club.

Keeping the Blues in the news by engaging in Blues!

[alpha33 325]

Everything's changed since [censored] Pratt became President of Enron.

They now have enough money to bail out Lance Whitnall and Heath Scotland if they happen to land in ot water after this morning's 5 am altercation outside a Ballarat Pub.

More power to the Enron Football Club.

Keeping the Blues in the news by engaging in Blues!

Here's a good article from Michaelangelo Rucci of the Adelaide Addie suggesting that things haven't changed much down at Enron even if Richard Pratt is kicking in the $$$$$$'s:

CLUBS' CURIOUS BEHAVIOUR

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Maybe Pratt can pay the family's court costs.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Sport/Whitna...2338776933.html

Whitnall is leading the leadership group by example now.

[demonfanjezza 1]

Maybe Pratt can pay the family's court costs.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Sport/Whitna...2338776933.html

Whitnall is leading the leadership group by example now.

Yeah i heard about this

What a dispute between brothers <_<

Great example