30 minutes ago, A F said:

If the system and coaching isn't up to scratch though, as soon as you lose your better players, you struggle.

I'd be examining the medical and the coaching team for our performance this year. I agree that all areas of the club should be up for review, but I reckon Taylor has nailed enough picks to say he's done a good job.

I would have thought it should be standard practice to do this every year. 

On 6/5/2019 at 8:02 AM, Dee Zephyr said:

Apologies, not sure where to post this. I was reading an article on AFL.com about ‘Your Club’s Burning Questions’ for next season and it states we should not overreact after expecting to contend this season. One of the questions being should we give up our first round pick. 

The writer believes we should be open to giving away our first round pick depending what’s on offer. I thought we had to use our first round pick since we haven’t used one since 2015.

We have to use a first round pick this year.

That’s not to say we can’t trade our early 1st round pick for a need plus a much later one, although I doubt we’d get a good enough return to justify it. 

We could revisit the Oliver-Weideman strategy however. Which teams have an upcoming academy/FS selection prospect this year?

Edited June 9, 20195 yr by Mach5

Looks like Jason may have got another one in the mid season draft.

4 hours ago, Redleg said:

Looks like Jason may have got another one in the mid season draft.

I didn't see the game but geez you are going early.

2 points in relation to this, only 2 other teams had the opportunity to get him so I wouldn't be so quick to be pumping up Taylor's tyres and it appears Dunkley has shown more so far in the VFL than our other u18's drafted from last season. This raises many questions for me.

dunkley was injured the majority of his u/18 year, last year, wasn't he?

he looks a smooth mover in traffic, knows his way around goal, and loves a tackle - basically, very similar to his brother

9 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

I didn't see the game but geez you are going early.

2 points in relation to this, only 2 other teams had the opportunity to get him so I wouldn't be so quick to be pumping up Taylor's tyres and it appears Dunkley has shown more so far in the VFL than our other u18's drafted from last season. This raises many questions for me.

Not really.

I said "may" and didn't say star, but obviously mean another player. 

The fact that only 2 had picks before us doesn't mean much, as in fact they both could have taken him but didn't and of course their picks may end up better.

 Swallow has gone for surgery, Jordon is going ok for someone with so little footy experience, Chandler is also going ok and Neita is injured. Bedford has shown a bit also, albeit with low possies. However they are still a work in progress, as is Kyle Dunkley.

Recently Taylor picked up Lockhart and Corey Wagner with low picks and they have played senior footy this year.

Petty and Baker are also going along nicely at low picks.

So with lesser picks because of trading, he is still finding footballers.

Edited June 9, 20195 yr by Redleg

16 hours ago, Mach5 said:

We have to use a first round pick this year.

That’s not to say we can’t trade our early 1st round pick for a need plus a much later one, although I doubt we’d get a good enough return to justify it. 

We could revisit the Oliver-Weideman strategy however. Which teams have an upcoming academy/FS selection prospect this year?

We can still use our future first rounder (2020 R1) if we want to?

1 hour ago, Redleg said:

Not really.

I said "may" and didn't say star, but obviously mean another player. 

The fact that only 2 had picks before us doesn't mean much, as in fact they both could have taken him but didn't and of course their picks may end up better.

 Swallow has gone for surgery, Jordon is going ok for someone with so little footy experience, Chandler is also going ok and Neita is injured. Bedford has shown a bit also, albeit with low possies. However they are still a work in progress, as is Kyle Dunkley.

Recently Taylor picked up Lockhart and Corey Wagner with low picks and they have played senior footy this year.

Petty and Baker are also going along nicely at low picks.

So with lesser picks because of trading, he is still finding footballers.

I'm with you Red. He looks to have good potential.

I was under the impression that every club could have picked him and passed in 2018. So he's kinda like a 2018 pick 137 ?

1 hour ago, Redleg said:

Not really.

I said "may" and didn't say star, but obviously mean another player. 

The fact that only 2 had picks before us doesn't mean much, as in fact they both could have taken him but didn't and of course their picks may end up better.

 Swallow has gone for surgery, Jordon is going ok for someone with so little footy experience, Chandler is also going ok and Neita is injured. Bedford has shown a bit also, albeit with low possies. However they are still a work in progress, as is Kyle Dunkley.

Recently Taylor picked up Lockhart and Corey Wagner with low picks and they have played senior footy this year.

Petty and Baker are also going along nicely at low picks.

So with lesser picks because of trading, he is still finding footballers.

We don’t know if he’s finding any senior AFL footballers from that lot yet. Baker and Lockhart have shown a glimpse but jury hasn’t even been selected yet let alone convened. 

You would hope at least four from that group really come on. Taylor would want to hope so. Needs to produce more quality from our later picks if he’s going to be there for another five years. 

1 hour ago, Matsuo Basho said:

You would hope at least four from that group really come on. Taylor would want to hope so. Needs to produce more quality from our later picks if he’s going to be there for another five years. 

Lower draft picks generally take more time to develop, if they are going to develop. Therefore I agree that the jury is still out on some of more recent picks. 

However, we have an excellent record IMO in later draft picks. Not sure how many of these are due to Taylor, but I would have thought that Harmes (2014 rookie), Hannan (pick 46 2016), Hunt (57 2013), Joel Smith (rookie 2016), AVB (rookie 2015), Fritsch (31 2017), Gawn (34 2009), TMac (53, 2010) and Frost (83 2012) are some examples of good selections. Of course there are many that haven’t made it, but that is football. Hore (56 2018) has already shown he will make it. 

Your comment that “Taylor needs to produce more quality from our later draft picks if he is going to be there for another 5 years” is at very best, uninformed.

Firstly, lower draft picks are picked on potential - or they would be high draft picks. It’s then up to the player himself and the FD to develop that potential - not Taylor. The examples above show that he has a great eye for potential, particularly the 3 rookie picks.

Secondly, most later draft picks take a few years to develop therefore Taylor already has the runs on the board to be there for “ the next 5 years”. By your own admission, he cannot and should not yet be judged on later draft picks of the last year or two - although players like Baker (48 2017), Dunkley (mid season draft 2019), and Lockhart (2019 supplementary selection) would appear to me as though Taylor still has what it takes.

Just for once MB, I’m sure we would all like to see you come up with something constructive on this site. 

Edited June 10, 20195 yr by Neil Crompton

2 hours ago, Matsuo Basho said:

We don’t know if he’s finding any senior AFL footballers from that lot yet. Baker and Lockhart have shown a glimpse but jury hasn’t even been selected yet let alone convened. 

You would hope at least four from that group really come on. Taylor would want to hope so. Needs to produce more quality from our later picks if he’s going to be there for another five years. 

Yeah we could always make a play for SOS at Carlton.

24 minutes ago, Neil Crompton said:

Lower draft picks generally take more time to develop, if they are going to develop. Therefore I agree that the jury is still out on some of more recent picks. 

However, we have an excellent record IMO in later draft picks. Not sure how many of these are due to Taylor, but I would have thought that Harmes (2014 rookie), Hannan (pick 46 2016), Hunt (57 2013), Joel Smith (rookie 2016), AVB (rookie 2015), Fritsch (31 2017), Gawn (34 2009), TMac (53, 2010) and Frost (83 2012) are some examples of good selections. Of course there are many that haven’t made it, but that is football. Hore (56 2018) has already shown he will make it. 

Your comment that “Taylor needs to produce more quality from our later draft picks if he is going to be there for another 5 years” is at very best, uninformed.

Firstly, lower draft picks are picked on potential - or they would be high draft picks. It’s then up to the player himself and the FD to develop that potential - not Taylor. The examples above show that he has a great eye for potential, particularly the 3 rookie picks.

Secondly, most later draft picks take a few years to develop therefore Taylor already has the runs on the board to be there for “ the next 5 years”. By your own admission, he cannot and should not yet be judged on later draft picks of the last year or two - although players like Baker (48 2017), Dunkley (mid season draft 2019), and Lockhart (2019 supplementary selection) would appear to me as though Taylor still has what it takes.

Just for once MB, I’m sure we would all like to see you come up with something constructive on this site. 

Gawn and TMac aren't Taylors selections and came from Prendegast who we all acknowledge set us back a long way. Frost was a trade with GWS. Ironically if you swapped Tmac and Lucas Cook and Gawn and Gysberts/Tapscott he would be probably be looked at in a different manner.

Harmes is the shinning light there and there are some handy prospects, but excellent is over the top.

Geelong for instance have a great record with later picks having picked up Stewart, Parfitt, Kelly, Henry (and potentially could add Miers to the list) in the past few years. Taylor is not in the same ball park.

 

On 6/10/2019 at 1:21 PM, Neil Crompton said:

Lower draft picks generally take more time to develop, if they are going to develop. Therefore I agree that the jury is still out on some of more recent picks. 

However, we have an excellent record IMO in later draft picks. Not sure how many of these are due to Taylor, but I would have thought that Harmes (2014 rookie), Hannan (pick 46 2016), Hunt (57 2013), Joel Smith (rookie 2016), AVB (rookie 2015), Fritsch (31 2017), Gawn (34 2009), TMac (53, 2010) and Frost (83 2012) are some examples of good selections. Of course there are many that haven’t made it, but that is football. Hore (56 2018) has already shown he will make it. 

Your comment that “Taylor needs to produce more quality from our later draft picks if he is going to be there for another 5 years” is at very best, uninformed.

Firstly, lower draft picks are picked on potential - or they would be high draft picks. It’s then up to the player himself and the FD to develop that potential - not Taylor. The examples above show that he has a great eye for potential, particularly the 3 rookie picks.

Secondly, most later draft picks take a few years to develop therefore Taylor already has the runs on the board to be there for “ the next 5 years”. By your own admission, he cannot and should not yet be judged on later draft picks of the last year or two - although players like Baker (48 2017), Dunkley (mid season draft 2019), and Lockhart (2019 supplementary selection) would appear to me as though Taylor still has what it takes.

Just for once MB, I’m sure we would all like to see you come up with something constructive on this site. 

Actually “Froggy” if I may be so bold, ‘constructive’ does not always come in the form of positive spin doctoring. Papering over cracks does not help in the long run.

Gawn, TMac and Frost were not Taylor recruits for starters, so cross them off your list. 

Harmes is a beauty no doubt and Fritsch and Hore look very likely long termers, but Hannan, Vanders and White? Jury’s still well and truly convening. None you could say have stamped themselves as bonafide locks in a first 22.

Go back again and look at the list I compiled of non-R1 draft and rookie draft picks Taylor selected from 2013-2017 in particular. Discount 2018 by all means. It ‘ain’t good enough. Nowhere near from your head of recruiting. Maybe for a lower to middling side. But not for a club with genuine premiership aspirations. 

If an outside entity was conducting a thorough review of the FD it’s one of the first areas that would start beeping on their radar.

Don’t mistake constructive criticism for thoughtless negativity. And if you’re going to use examples to support your counter argument, it’s best to be accurate with names, dates and so on.

54 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Actually “Froggy” if I may be so bold, ‘constructive’ does not always come in the form of positive spin doctoring. Papering over cracks does not help in the long run.

Gawn, TMac and Frost were not Taylor recruits for starters, so cross them off your list. 

Harmes is a beauty no doubt and Fritsch and Hore look very likely long termers, but Hannan, Vanders and White? Jury’s still well and truly convening. None you could say have stamped themselves as bonafide locks in a first 22.

Go back again and look at the list I compiled of non-R1 draft and rookie draft picks Taylor selected from 2013-2017 in particular. Discount 2018 by all means. It ‘ain’t good enough. Nowhere near from your head of recruiting. Maybe for a lower to middling side. But not for a club with genuine premiership aspirations. 

If an outside entity was conducting a thorough review of the FD it’s one of the first areas that would start beeping on their radar.

Don’t mistake constructive criticism for thoughtless negativity. And if you’re going to use examples to support your counter argument, it’s best to be accurate with names, dates and so on.

Probably need to follow your own advice here Mucho Complaino - you’ve been saying the same thing page after page after page.

What are your examples to support your argument.  Which clubs have nailed every post first round pick over the past five seasons?  Give us something to compare Taylor’s record against.

The majority of drafted players don’t play more than 10 games.  It’s even less after a the first round- so who are comparing Taylor to if his incompetence is so glaring?

5 minutes ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

Probably need to follow your own advice here Mucho Complaino - you’ve been saying the same thing page after page after page.

What are your examples to support your argument.  Which clubs have nailed every post first round pick over the past five seasons?  Give us something to compare Taylor’s record against.

The majority of drafted players don’t play more than 10 games.  It’s even less after a the first round- so who are comparing Taylor to if his incompetence is so glaring?

It's true that a much deeper analysis than I've done could be carried out. All I did was establish a prima facie case, the evidence being our ladder position, %age and extraordinary lack of depth. And the fact that we keep having to pay overs for talent, robbing our recruiting system of opportunities to replenish from the draft at healthy intervals.

I would bank on the BIG 6 (Pies, WC, Geel, GWS, Rich, Crows) having a better track record at post-R1 recruiting than us. But I'm not going to spend hours doing the study and am okay with being proven wrong.

 

 

On 6/10/2019 at 1:52 PM, Watts the matter said:

Gawn and TMac aren't Taylors selections and came from Prendegast who we all acknowledge set us back a long way. Frost was a trade with GWS. Ironically if you swapped Tmac and Lucas Cook and Gawn and Gysberts/Tapscott he would be probably be looked at in a different manner.

Harmes is the shinning light there and there are some handy prospects, but excellent is over the top.

Geelong for instance have a great record with later picks having picked up Stewart, Parfitt, Kelly, Henry (and potentially could add Miers to the list) in the past few years. Taylor is not in the same ball park.

 

Just dont let Wells pick round 1 selections. Not a great record the last 10 years. Hasn't had any real low selections but I  wouldnt give any of these a tick.

10	Nakia Cockatoo

16	Darcy Lang

16	Jackson Thurlow

16	Darcy Lang

23	Cameron Guthrie

15	Billie Smedts

15	Mitch Brown

1 minute ago, Grimes Times said:

 

Just dont let Wells pick round 1 selections. Not a great record the last 10 years. Hasn't had any real low selections but I  wouldnt give any of these a tick.

10	Nakia Cockatoo

16	Darcy Lang

16	Jackson Thurlow

16	Darcy Lang

23	Cameron Guthrie

15	Billie Smedts

15	Mitch Brown

Go all the way back to Kane Tenace and David Spriggs also.

9 minutes ago, Grimes Times said:

 

Just dont let Wells pick round 1 selections. Not a great record the last 10 years. Hasn't had any real low selections but I  wouldnt give any of these a tick.

10	Nakia Cockatoo

16	Darcy Lang

16	Jackson Thurlow

16	Darcy Lang

23	Cameron Guthrie

15	Billie Smedts

15	Mitch Brown

Except for Guthrie they are R1 picks. Not great though I agree but you would need to do a more comprehensive spreadsheet of the six clubs I mentioned, listing all players selected after R1 (including rookie and CatB etc) from 2013-2017. Then you'll have the data to make an assessment.

Cam Guthrie is good solid player with 150 games at Geelong to his name. He's a non-R1 draftee and will be in the plus column for them.

1 hour ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Except for Guthrie they are R1 picks. Not great though I agree but you would need to do a more comprehensive spreadsheet of the six clubs I mentioned, listing all players selected after R1 (including rookie and CatB etc) from 2013-2017. Then you'll have the data to make an assessment.

Cam Guthrie is good solid player with 150 games at Geelong to his name. He's a non-R1 draftee and will be in the plus column for them.

Not going to argue but Guthurie was a round one selection thats why I included him and I dont rate him at all and would hardly call him solid even though hes played close to 150 games. 150 more then me.

1 hour ago, Grimes Times said:

 

Just dont let Wells pick round 1 selections. Not a great record the last 10 years. Hasn't had any real low selections but I  wouldnt give any of these a tick.

10	Nakia Cockatoo

16	Darcy Lang

16	Jackson Thurlow

16	Darcy Lang

23	Cameron Guthrie

15	Billie Smedts

15	Mitch Brown

Yes, he has messed up some first rounders, but at the end of the day you would be happy with the final outcome of the drafts with the picks they entered the drafts with.

To pick up Parfitt and Stewart with 26 and 40. You would be delighted if you scored either of those players using your first rounder.

To pick up Tim Kelly at pick 24, who Leigh Matthews as being worth Pick 1 and Pick 10 two year later. 

He has never had access to the real early picks and doesn't have a great record between 10-20 but he makes up for it pretty easily.

With the picks Taylor has had, I don't think you can say he has done an 'outstanding' job and is doing any better than average. 

18 minutes ago, Watts the matter said:

Yes, he has messed up some first rounders, but at the end of the day you would be happy with the final outcome of the drafts with the picks they entered the drafts with.

To pick up Parfitt and Stewart with 26 and 40. You would be delighted if you scored either of those players using your first rounder.

To pick up Tim Kelly at pick 24, who Leigh Matthews as being worth Pick 1 and Pick 10 two year later. 

He has never had access to the real early picks and doesn't have a great record between 10-20 but he makes up for it pretty easily.

With the picks Taylor has had, I don't think you can say he has done an 'outstanding' job and is doing any better than average. 

Players Geelong drafted between 2013 - 2018 on the Cats’ current list:

Parfitt, Stewart, Kelly, Menegola, Kolodjashnij, Ratugolea, Miers, Blicavs, Guthrie.

It’s development too of course but ol’ Wellsy is still braining it looking at those names.

MFC has to get that good if we’re serious about winning silverware.

Edited June 12, 20195 yr by Matsuo Basho

1 hour ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Players Geelong drafted between 2013 - 2018 on the Cats’ current list:

Parfitt, Stewart, Kelly, Menegola, Kolodjashnij, Ratugolea, Miers, Blicavs, Guthrie.

It’s development too of course but ol’ Wellsy is still braining it looking at those names.

MFC has to get that good if we’re serious about winning silverware.

Are those same listed players that you just listed (Kelly is an outright gun on another level) be still quality without the like of Dangerfield, Ablett, Rohan, Dahlhouse, Selwood, Taylor Hawkins, Touhey and Stanley?? These players have made them look good this year.

Without those name those players bar Kelly are ordinary players. Those same names also got shown out and bullied by a bunch of 21-23 years olds in Oliver, Brayshaw, Petracca, Weideman, Viney, Salem and Harmes. 

The difference is their ability to continue to trade in experienced soliders fill gaps like Dahlhouse, Rohan, Dangerfield, Stanley, Ablett, Touhey. 

We need to take a leaf out of their book and continue to bring in more experience players to add on top of Oliver, Brayshaw, Petracca, Harmes, Weideman, Viney etc. Not blokes like 8 gamers in Pruess, but guys like May who have already played 100 games and can just come in and play a role immediately. 

 

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Are those same listed players that you just listed (Kelly is an outright gun on another level) be still quality without the like of Dangerfield, Ablett, Rohan, Dahlhouse, Selwood, Taylor Hawkins, Touhey and Stanley?? These players have made them look good this year.

Without those name those players bar Kelly are ordinary players. Those same names also got shown out and bullied by a bunch of 21-23 years olds in Oliver, Brayshaw, Petracca, Weideman, Viney, Salem and Harmes. 

The difference is their ability to continue to trade in experienced soliders fill gaps like Dahlhouse, Rohan, Dangerfield, Stanley, Ablett, Touhey. 

We need to take a leaf out of their book and continue to bring in more experience players to add on top of Oliver, Brayshaw, Petracca, Harmes, Weideman, Viney etc. Not blokes like 8 gamers in Pruess, but guys like May who have already played 100 games and can just come in and play a role immediately. 

 

Stewart, Kelly and Blicavs are out and out guns. Menegola, Kolodjashnij and Guthrie more than solid first 22 citizens, Miers and Esava very promising as we have seen.

Who are Jason Taylor’s equivalents on our current list? OMac, Harmes, Frost, Hannan, Hunt, ANB, Fritsch, Hore. I mean it’s okay but there too many NQR’s in there and where are the stars? Harmes is about as close as you’ll get. Wells has got him well covered I’m afraid. 

Agree that we need more experience in key areas. We can start by making Ben Brown a big big offer to leave North.

Edited June 12, 20195 yr by Matsuo Basho

Just to clarify something in this thread; we ARE able to trade our first round pick this year or next year. We just have to use one of them, ie - 1 first round pick out of 2019 and 2020. It's a rolling four year period. There's info here:

https://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-11-02/trading-firstround-picks-afls-most-misunderstood-rule-explained?fbclid=IwAR399B4GgEtfe0n_QTfe_mYfcIQD1pz2PEYIbIy6JNvDP2UolPUP1Y1Vqcs

Given the general consensus on our list, as well as opposition clubs likely believing our 2019 is an abomination, we are likely to have more bargaining power with this years pick, than offering up a future one. I'm not sure if that makes it less or more likely we trade this years first rounder though; I guess it depends on the particular target and their clubs trade requirements.

 

I'm sorry but picking Sam Weideman ahead of Charlie Curnow was unforgivable by Jason Taylor. He overlooked a generational player there in Curnow. People can say 6 other clubs did as well but it's not good enough. At pick 9 (Weideman) and pick 12 (Curnow) a clear decision had to be made between the two and Taylor went the wrong way. Add that to his resume please, bolded, highlighted, and underlined.