Ex-Demon Craig Cameron on the move again

[DaveyDee 421]

9 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

at the end of 2016 Richmond was in crisis, and undertook a total review and overhaul of their coaching panel, all areas of football operations, and made an explicit commitment to consciously, deliberately change the culture? That whole 'we took a good hard look at ourselves and the club has a completely different feel to it this year' line that we've heard hundreds of times all the way through 2017.

This is a very interesting assessment - "crisis" only in the minds of some fans that stood outside the confines of the club & that idiot Kevin Barlett. Barlett would be complaining about something even if the Tigers made the Grand Final - thats his job.

Politically, football clubs are a mine-field. Glad we dont have to experience that anymore - long may it continue.  

[Little Goffy 12,727]

26 minutes ago, DaveyDee said:

This is a very interesting assessment - "crisis" only in the minds of some fans that stood outside the confines of the club & that idiot Kevin Barlett. Barlett would be complaining about something even if the Tigers made the Grand Final - thats his job.

Politically, football clubs are a mine-field. Glad we dont have to experience that anymore - long may it continue.  

September 12, 2016 Richmond statement

10 week comprehensive review by external consultant.

New General Manager of Football (Neil Balme, no less).

Major restructure and increased status of recruiting and list management section.

Two assistant coaches sacked (Ross Smith - defence. Greg Mellor - forward)

Senior Development Coach Mark Williams sacked

Replaced the head of strength and conditioning.

Also worth noting they traded out one of their best players and Vice-captain, Brett Deledio.

 

Three years of token appearances and failures in finals, then an abject flop in 2016, with most of their best players being 25+ already and close to no variation or new appearances in the B&F boards for the last 5 years.

I ask, if that is Melbourne's situation in 2020, would it seem maybe just a bit like a genuine crisis?

 

 

[Sir Why You Little 34,705]

51 minutes ago, DaveyDee said:

This is a very interesting assessment - "crisis" only in the minds of some fans that stood outside the confines of the club & that idiot Kevin Barlett. Barlett would be complaining about something even if the Tigers made the Grand Final - thats his job.

Politically, football clubs are a mine-field. Glad we dont have to experience that anymore - long may it continue.  

Bartlett played in 403 Games, was part of 5 flags and was an AFL Senior Coach, now I don’t agree with everythng he spouts, but if he is an idiot what does that make you?

Hungry knows how Football Clubs work...

i think you Davey have an inside agenda

[Sir Why You Little 34,705]

6 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

September 12, 2016 Richmond statement

10 week comprehensive review by external consultant.

New General Manager of Football (Neil Balme, no less).

Major restructure and increased status of recruiting and list management section.

Two assistant coaches sacked (Ross Smith - defence. Greg Mellor - forward)

Senior Development Coach Mark Williams sacked

Replaced the head of strength and conditioning.

Also worth noting they traded out one of their best players and Vice-captain, Brett Deledio.

 

Three years of token appearances and failures in finals, then an abject flop in 2016, with most of their best players being 25+ already and close to no variation or new appearances in the B&F boards for the last 5 years.

I ask, if that is Melbourne's situation in 2020, would it seem maybe just a bit like a genuine crisis?

 

 

The reality. 

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

9 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

The reality. 

The reality is a journey is started with the first step.  CAC started the process, he didn't finish it.  It was tracking nicely until he left and Richardson took over when it stagnated.  If you think Richmond went from duds to Premiers in one season of work you live in la-la land.

Anyway both sides presented, people can make up their own minds.  The reality is clearly that CAC was headhunted from Melbourne to Richmond, headhunted to GWS and now headhunted to GCS.  That's fact and not conjecture.  It suggests that people who have been in footy a very long time recognize his abilities.  His efforts were recognized by Gary March despite the fact he left several years ago.

If you know more it's a shame your great skills are restricted to a football forum rather than leading our chosen team to a long-awaited flag.

 

[DaveyDee 421]

41 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

September 12, 2016 Richmond statement

10 week comprehensive review by external consultant.

New General Manager of Football (Neil Balme, no less).

Major restructure and increased status of recruiting and list management section.

Two assistant coaches sacked (Ross Smith - defence. Greg Mellor - forward)

Senior Development Coach Mark Williams sacked

Replaced the head of strength and conditioning.

Also worth noting they traded out one of their best players and Vice-captain, Brett Deledio.

 

Three years of token appearances and failures in finals, then an abject flop in 2016, with most of their best players being 25+ already and close to no variation or new appearances in the B&F boards for the last 5 years.

I ask, if that is Melbourne's situation in 2020, would it seem maybe just a bit like a genuine crisis?

 

 

If you really want to get your football opinions from a padded press release, ok .-

Not sure you are across the "political aspects" of AFL football clubs.

Honestly, they are a minefield - ah the good old "extensive review".

The old "restructure of recruiting", ah Blair you need to do this, Francis you need to do this - ok all cool.

Ross & Greg dont get their contracts re-newed - OMG who the F are they, you need a higher profile coaches to grab the media headlines, lets go for Leppa and Carrecella.

Sure did trade Lids - what the hell where GWS thinking. Look at the deals Richmond got for Lids compared to the deal Hawks got for Lewis. Hell I would have traded Lids in the blink of an eye - Dusty was up the following year for FA they needed the room. Keep Lids and loose Dusty - interesting concept.  

 

 

[DaveyDee 421]

39 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

If you know more it's a shame your great skills are restricted to a football forum rather than leading our chosen team to a long-awaited flag.

 

This is the sad thing about our club - the politicians, lawyers and media executives know more than the football people. 

Except when you put AFL approved CEO ( Professional AFL football Administrator)  and AFL hand picked and approved board in power - shivers look how we start to perform. Take the politics out of it - refuse to give the members and supporters a vote at their OWN AGM's - holly shivers looks what happens. 

How dumb are me and you ?? Yeah it was all our recruiters fault. 

[The Chazz 4,077]

46 minutes ago, DaveyDee said:

This is the sad thing about our club - the politicians, lawyers and media executives know more than the football people. 

Except when you put AFL approved CEO ( Professional AFL football Administrator)  and AFL hand picked and approved board in power - shivers look how we start to perform. Take the politics out of it - refuse to give the members and supporters a vote at their OWN AGM's - holly shivers looks what happens. 

How dumb are me and you ?? Yeah it was all our recruiters fault. 

So, are you saying that the recruiters can take zero responsibility for the playing personnel coming in between 2007-2015?

[DaveyDee 421]

39 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

So, are you saying that the recruiters can take zero responsibility for the playing personnel coming in between 2007-2015?

No. 

[DaveyDee 421]

Sorry cant post the Yes Minister Video

Edited November 17, 2017 by DaveyDee

[The Chazz 4,077]

24 minutes ago, DaveyDee said:

No. 

I rarely get things wrong when I do a "brilliant job", as you claimed CAC did.

[DaveyDee 421]

8 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

I rarely get things wrong when I do a "brilliant job", as you claimed CAC did.

Brilliant job taking into account the situation - but feel free to use only half the quote. 

Those little words "taking into account the situation" - not that important. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by DaveyDee

[The Chazz 4,077]

1 minute ago, DaveyDee said:

Brilliant job taking into account the situation - but feel free to use only half the quote. 

Those little words "taking into account the situation" - not that important. 

That's the point that I am really struggling to understand, he didn't do a brilliant job, even when you take in to account the "situation".

I will give credit where it is due.  I just can't do it in this case, and am amazed that you can, not just with CAC, but PB too.

[DaveyDee 421]

3 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

That's the point that I am really struggling to understand, he didn't do a brilliant job, even when you take in to account the "situation".

I will give credit where it is due.  I just can't do it in this case, and am amazed that you can, not just with CAC, but PB too.

No problems we agree to disagree - easy 

I've always thought we were under finances and under resourced. We were writing cheques to pay off debt and play games at the MCG. Other clubs were writing cheques to invest into their football departments. 

[Little Goffy 12,727]

2 hours ago, DaveyDee said:

If you really want to get your football opinions from a padded press release, ok .-

Not sure you are across the "political aspects" of AFL football clubs.

Honestly, they are a minefield - ah the good old "extensive review".

The old "restructure of recruiting", ah Blair you need to do this, Francis you need to do this - ok all cool.

Ross & Greg dont get their contracts re-newed - OMG who the F are they, you need a higher profile coaches to grab the media headlines, lets go for Leppa and Carrecella.

Sure did trade Lids - what the hell where GWS thinking. Look at the deals Richmond got for Lids compared to the deal Hawks got for Lewis. Hell I would have traded Lids in the blink of an eye - Dusty was up the following year for FA they needed the room. Keep Lids and loose Dusty - interesting concept.  

 

 

You keep mentioning 'club politics a minefield' but seem to have missed that there may have been just a little bit of personal showboating and foot-in-the-door-for-glory talk from Gary March when he so proudly noted that Cameron's (and March's) era was what set up the glory now.

Seriously, do you have any actual evidence to support the claim of Craig Cameron's tenure at Richmond being the groundwork for their premiership success?

I've presented the alternate position, and supported it by noting that there was limited list development, and minimal results progress, and that the surge to success occurred only after Richmond engaged in a serious review which the club and players openly acknowledge had a major transformative effect.

So far all you've offered to support your claim of a 'brilliant job' by Cameron is that five years after he left a premiership was achieved by a list which was about 80% built before or after his tenure, under the direction of an almost entirely new coaching panel, supervised by a significantly changed board and club executive.

[DaveyDee 421]

3 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

You keep mentioning 'club politics a minefield' but seem to have missed that there may have been just a little bit of personal showboating and foot-in-the-door-for-glory talk from Gary March when he so proudly noted that Cameron's (and March's) era was what set up the glory now.

Seriously, do you have any actual evidence to support the claim of Craig Cameron's tenure at Richmond being the groundwork for their premiership success?

I've presented the alternate position, and supported it by noting that there was limited list development, and minimal results progress, and that the surge to success occurred only after Richmond engaged in a serious review which the club and players openly acknowledge had a major transformative effect.

So far all you've offered to support your claim of a 'brilliant job' by Cameron is that five years after he left a premiership was achieved by a list which was about 80% built before or after his tenure, under the direction of an almost entirely new coaching panel, supervised by a significantly changed board and club executive.

Was it an "extensive review" or a "serious review" - big difference?  

Or was it Tigers spin to protect against the "hostile take-over" and sustain their growing 70K plus memberships, huge crowds, record sponsorship deals, next to no reliance on poker machines and a few other alternative incomes they are setting up - not to forget their massive imputs from State & Federal Governments?

When CC and Marchy took over I'm sure they were out there "rattling tins" to coin a phrase - not unlike another club I happen to know.

I'm sure we finished last and they finished second last? Since then look at their membership numbers, look at their average crowds, look at their sponsorship numbers, look at their lack of reliance on Poker machines, look at their development programmes, look at their investments in Punt Rd facilities - hell they dont even sell home games these days. If you dont think that CC & FD had a big role  to play - stick with your "xxxxxx reviews"

Just for the record I'm not disagreeing with your comments re-Marchy but think he does deserve some of the credit along with Blair & CC - next time you see our CEO ask him what sustained stability would do for the MFC ? 

Edited November 17, 2017 by DaveyDee

[Little Goffy 12,727]

1 hour ago, DaveyDee said:

Was it an "extensive review" or a "serious review" - big difference?  

Or was it Tigers spin to protect against the "hostile take-over" and sustain their growing 70K plus memberships, huge crowds, record sponsorship deals, next to no reliance on poker machines and a few other alternative incomes they are setting up - not to forget their massive imputs from State & Federal Governments?

When CC and Marchy took over I'm sure they were out there "rattling tins" to coin a phrase - not unlike another club I happen to know.

I'm sure we finished last and they finished second last? Since then look at their membership numbers, look at their average crowds, look at their sponsorship numbers, look at their lack of reliance on Poker machines, look at their development programmes, look at their investments in Punt Rd facilities - hell they dont even sell home games these days. If you dont think that CC & FD had a big role  to play - stick with your "xxxxxx reviews"

Just for the record I'm not disagreeing with your comments re-Marchy but think he does deserve some of the credit along with Blair & CC - next time you see our CEO ask him what sustained stability would do for the MFC ? 

It might have been seriously extensive. Maybe it was 'totes full-on'.

Anyway, we have different opinions.

You think Cameron laid the groundwork for Richmond's later success, I think he didn't achieve much more than treading water. We've each given our reasons.

I don't hate the guy, and I do recognise that he was severely under-resourced in his role while with us (like all Demon things not so long ago) and right now I feel like if I keep pushing my point of view it'll just come across as some kind of vendetta against him. So, deep breath and moving on.

[DaveyDee 421]

3 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

It might have been seriously extensive. Maybe it was 'totes full-on'.

Anyway, we have different opinions.

You think Cameron laid the groundwork for Richmond's later success, I think he didn't achieve much more than treading water. We've each given our reasons.

I don't hate the guy, and I do recognise that he was severely under-resourced in his role while with us (like all Demon things not so long ago) and right now I feel like if I keep pushing my point of view it'll just come across as some kind of vendetta against him. So, deep breath and moving on.

Cheers - agreed we have different opinions respect your stance. Much appreciated. 

[Binmans PA 26,301]

On 11/14/2017 at 7:24 PM, goodoil said:

Barry's record improves over time with the impacts of Gawn, Jetta, T.Mac, Howe et cetera.  Scully became Hogan, Gysberts Pedersen

I guess that's relatively true. It's more he blew the really elite top picks, which as we know, usually yield the absolute stars.

Edited November 18, 2017 by A F

[Trisul 640]

On 11/17/2017 at 10:50 AM, DaveyDee said:

Had I known there was so much hate & blame still around for CC I would not have. I thought we had matured as a club, learnt from our mistakes - sorry I was clearly wrong.

Now I comprehend my mistake - the expertise at Demonland regarding Footy Department maters at the MFC and across multiple clubs is staggering - I officially apologise for starting the thread. 

So, no reason at all? OK.  Sure.

[Damo 3,012]

On 11/14/2017 at 7:24 PM, goodoil said:

Barry's record improves over time with the impacts of Gawn, Jetta, T.Mac, Howe et cetera.  Scully became Hogan, Gysberts Pedersen

I missed this statement. What utter crap.

[IvanBartul13 2,564]

57 minutes ago, Franky_31 said:

I missed this statement. What utter crap.

Not sure how it can be utter crap. Gawn and Jetta have become very good players in the last couple of years.  Not saying Barry was a good recruiter or his record is good.  But some of his picks are now becoming very good ones.

[Little Goffy 12,727]

15 hours ago, goodoil said:

Not sure how it can be utter crap. Gawn and Jetta have become very good players in the last couple of years.  Not saying Barry was a good recruiter or his record is good.  But some of his picks are now becoming very good ones.

Recruiting manager 2008 to 2011.

Over the four years, recruited 6 players who have played 100+ games or are still playing now.

38 draft picks in total, of which 3 were picks taken at the absolute start of the draft, and a further 5 were  in the top-20.

I'd suggest, speculatively, that the only recruiting record worse than that over a similar period is Richmond's 2000-2004 effort. Although that did produce Newman, Rodan, Shultz, Tuck, Foley and Deldio, so maybe the two efforts are about even.

 

But yeah, this opens up the 'nature/nurture' debate about recruiting or development. How many players really could have developed well in the circumstances, would any recruiter have been on a hiding to nothing, all that.

Funny though, with the other example being Richmond pre-Cameron, Craig Cameron has had a career of people reflecting later that 'at least he wasn't bad as that one'!

[Damo 3,012]

Im extra biased. Having promised the father of Rory Sloane that the Dees would take him with an early draft pick, the family watched as Blease, Strauss and Bennell's names were called out. I guess its hard for all families but BBBBP to this day wouldnt want to get into the wrong Uber.  Rory was captain of eastern ranges and did not then and still doesnt rate Sam Blease, no matter what misfortunes befell him.

If Rory comes back to Victoria Id say dont bother asking.

 

[daisycutter 28,640]

5 minutes ago, Franky_31 said:

Im extra biased. Having promised the father of Rory Sloane that the Dees would take him with an early draft pick, the family watched as Blease, Strauss and Bennell's names were called out. I guess its hard for all families but BBBBP to this day wouldnt want to get into the wrong Uber.  Rory was captain of eastern ranges and did not then and still doesnt rate Sam Blease, no matter what misfortunes befell him.

If Rory comes back to Victoria Id say dont bother asking.

 

yep franky, rory sloane and oliie wines still hurts