JLT Round 2 vs. Carlton at Casey Fields

[Macca 16,174]

7 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Everyone knows decision making, disposal skills and execution are of far more importance when inside your defensive half and especially inside your defensive 50. Obviously the best chance for an opposition side to score is from a turnover close to their goal. Surely that is a given? You are bringing in pointless other information that holds no relevance to what I'm talking about which is the need for Tom to make better decisions and to show more composure with the ball in hand. You can bet your bottom dollar that in the review for the game, Tom will be spoken to about the need for this.

You're too focused on Tom and won't acknowledge the mistakes from turnovers that happen all over the ground that can result in a scoring opportunity for the opposition.

You (and others) also won't acknowledge Tom when he plays well ... yesterday is a case in point.  He was one of our best players as part of a terrific defensive performance by all our defenders.  Carlton scored 9.8 and were lucky to get to that score.

But keep focusing on the negatives if that's what floats your boat.

[Engorged Onion 9,597]

16 minutes ago, Macca said:

But you're not Goodwin ... perhaps you could send him off an email stating the preferred style of play that you want Tom to play. 

You and others just don't get it ... Tom is being asked specifically to play the way he is and that's the way it's going to be.  There's going to be the odd error in the process - that stands to reason.  In half the games he plays he makes no glaring errors - you and others need to start acknowledging that. 

A simple target ... what 15 metres backwards or something like that?  You won't win games of footy trying to be too careful - we tried that under Neeld & the result was a spectacular failure.

Tom sets up an enormous amount of scoring opportunities for the team and often he is the instigator of a long line of possessions.  You haven't noticed?

I believe you, so do you feel like going through the tapes though and compiling the vision for the rest who look at things a little too superficially  I'd much prefer Tom to take risk and to develop his proficiency under pressure - psychologically its the only way to hone skills in that context (game day), and Im prepared to wear him making errors (say at 85% disposal efficiency), rather than retreating to safety behaviours (short kicks, not on the 45, not using his first 3 steps to accelerate) that move him away from Goodwins game plan.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Danelska

[Dr. Gonzo 22,808]

14 hours ago, Macca said:

We get great drive from both Macs.  Both take chances with attacking kicks and handballs.  Tom especially switches play on an almost constant basis.

You wouldn't know it reading this site though ... the obsessive/compulsive urge to disect and criticise their every move is dismaying.

Get used to having both of them in the backline for a long time to come.

Both played well again today and it's about time credit was given to both players.

Tom McDonald in particular is far better than a lot give him credit for. When you take chances you make mistakes occasionally. People remember one or two mistakes a game and think that is indicative of him as a player.

[Guest]

I didn't catch the game as I had an engagement in Nagoya. I have seen the highlights. Will watch the replay now.
It seems that we aren't as static. Four or five blokes stream forward after a mark is taken in the fifty. Whether the player with the ball uses the or not is up to them but we are pro active.
Loving it!

[Cheap Seats 3,308]

1 hour ago, Maldonboy38 said:

Out all day yesterday and only got to look at replay this morning. The Dees looked very sharp but I honestly think the game was meaningless. Bolton seems to have a very "practice match" mentality about the preseason games, and the whole match looked like bruise-free footy. A whole heap of our players looked very good, but apart from some extra confidence for our young brigade, we dont have any more understanding of our starting 22 for round 1, or how we will be in comparison to others teams. 

 Very enjoyable though. 

You could be right there about the Blues and bruise free footy. Its hard to know how Carlton are travelling right now. I know they won't be looking at finals but it was hard to gauge their level of interest in this game.

We smashed them in contested footy and clearances which I believe the Blues pride themselves at. Cripps wasn't playing but we absolutely belted them.

What stood out for me (I haven't re watched the replay yet) was the ball movement and decision making. I am very impressed. Not to mention we were missing Tyson, Frost, Watts, Kent, Jetta, Garlett (I think that's it haha) who I believe are best 22.

It's great to have this kind of depth.

I know it's pre season and I am not get carried assay (round 1 is going to be a huge test....) but you can't help but get excited by what you're seeing and hearing at the club.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Wouldn't have thought Tommy Mac would drum up so much conversation after a 9 goal win, but here we are.

Defensively, he's terrific.  Get's led to the ball on occasion but is only rarely beaten in one on one situations, and he is deceptively quick off the mark as well.  It's not often you see a bag of goals kicked on him.

What it comes down to is his decision making.  His kicking is not necessarily that bad, but he almost backs himself too much and at times says to himself 'I can pin point a pass to a teammate 40 metres away through 4 opposition players', when really he should just look for the outlet up the ground to a 50/50 contest.  It's made to look worse than other turnovers as they are in the back half where the damage is far greater.  If he learned to ignore the 'riskier' kicks, especially the ones where he looks to bring the ball in board and you can't help but look away in fear, then discussion around his disposal and 'clangers' wouldn't happen.

[old dee 23,256]

1 minute ago, Wiseblood said:

Wouldn't have thought Tommy Mac would drum up so much conversation after a 9 goal win, but here we are.

Defensively, he's terrific.  Get's led to the ball on occasion but is only rarely beaten in one on one situations, and he is deceptively quick off the mark as well.  It's not often you see a bag of goals kicked on him.

What it comes down to is his decision making.  His kicking is not necessarily that bad, but he almost backs himself too much and at times says to himself 'I can pin point a pass to a teammate 40 metres away through 4 opposition players', when really he should just look for the outlet up the ground to a 50/50 contest.  It's made to look worse than other turnovers as they are in the back half where the damage is far greater.  If he learned to ignore the 'riskier' kicks, especially the ones where he looks to bring the ball in board and you can't help but look away in fear, then discussion around his disposal and 'clangers' wouldn't happen.

Could not agree more Wb. If he is our worst player we don't have much to worry about.

[Macca 16,174]

29 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tom McDonald in particular is far better than a lot give him credit for. When you take chances you make mistakes occasionally. People remember one or two mistakes a game and think that is indicative of him as a player.

 

I could highlight other scoring opportunities that resulted from mistakes from many of our players yesterday but I'd need to provide the accompanying vision. 

But if people are inclined to watch the replay in a different way than how they might ordinarily do, they'll see those same consequential actions. 

Mistakes in the backline seem more costly but are they?  The amount of clangers made by our backmen is often a low figure in relation to the rest of the team too. 

But hey, despite all those clangers, we won the game quite comfortably and were never challenged.  Strange that.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Macca

[Dante 2,577]

1 hour ago, bananas said:

Only watched the first half of the replay, but one thing I've noticed that has gone uncommented about on here, is the excellent pressure put on Carlton as they rebounded out of their defensive 50 by our makeshift half forwards. Neal-Bullen in particular was great with tackles, pressuring, smothering, and just generally making a nuisance of himself, but JKH, Harmes and vandenBerg all had moments of defensive excellence too.

I'll still be surprised if ANB plays round one, but at this point I won't be *that* surprised.

I like the fact that, whenever there is a loose ball in the forward line, you will generally find ANB there to pounce, he could get a couple of goals a week just being an opportunistic forward. He got one yesterday and should have had another when he took the mark which was taken off him and given to Spence and there were a couple of other times when he was thereabouts but someone else got in first.

Two years ago he would have been almost an automatic selection.

 

[dazzledavey36 49,794]

Surprised Alex Neal-Bullen hasn't gotten a mentioned. I thought yesterday he was really super with his defensive and pressure acts on their backs. If he plays another good game against WC then i cannot see why Garlett and Nib can't be our starting small forwards. Im hoping he's watched tapes of Toby Greene who invented himself into that small forward who puts enormous pressure on opposition backs and does a tagging job on the dangerous running half backs.

If he gets a gig round 1 id send him straight to Montagna to do a tagging role.

[hemingway 7,608]

Are we better off with Tom in the team, the way he plays today, or out of the team ? 

i think we know the answer. 

[rjay 24,193]

Not sure if anyone heard the commentary on SEN but I thought Chris Connelly as special comments man was hilarious.

We've got a couple of new players which is great...Slalom apparently went alright yesterday and Gartlett is due back soon.

What I loved the most was that I'm pretty sure Chris was improvising a lot on players that he hadn't seen play much footy last year.

One example was how Slalom developed a lot of his game last year learning to play a defensive role at half back. Funny, I thought he missed a lot of the season and when at half back it was the defensive side of his game that was lacking.

Then he went on a rave about a Blue boy who's name escapes me know, he was just throwing stuff out there. The one about Murphy (who missed a lot of last year and has always been a good kick) getting his field kicking together last year was another beauty.

He's quick on his feet and if you didn't know better you might think he brings some insight...seriously Chris you're entertaining but do some homework.

Think Dermott without the homework....and that's what we got yesterday.

[Macca 16,174]

7 minutes ago, hemingway said:

Are we better off with Tom in the team, the way he plays today, or out of the team ? 

i think we know the answer. 

The constant wanting of a player to be better than he can be always amuses me H ... not many reach pure A grade status for good reason - they are incapable of doing so.  But B or B+ will do me (accompanied by 3 - 5 genuine A graders)

If you've got enough of those types of players then your contending.  In the Northey & Daniher era's we fell short on having enough good footballers.  The ones we had were fine, we just needed about 5 or 6 more (good footballers)

Currently we're pushing our 'good footballer' numbers up ... it might sit at about 7 or 8 on actual output right now but if we get the number to 13-16, lookout.  The Hawks have hovered around that number for a number of years now ... Sydney & Geelong the same (more so previously with the Cats)

[Guest]

I think the Tommy Mac talk can be boiled down to one thing.

He occasionally tries to do too much. I am especially not a fan of his balk, get around man and then kick it like a sack of potatoes down the throat of an opposition player because he hasn't regained his balance move.

That being said, this can be remedied. I remember a young Nathan Jones had an unfortunate habit of trying to run through his man around 2009-2011 rather than stop, think and look for a better option to pass to. With a bit of maturity, he lost this habit and became the player he is today. I can't see why Tommy can't do the same.

[hemingway 7,608]

7 minutes ago, Macca said:

The constant wanting of a player to be better than he can be always amuses me H ... not many reach pure A grade status for good reason - they are incapable of doing so.  But B or B+ will do me (accompanied by 3 - 5 genuine A graders)

If you've got enough of those types of players then your contending.  In the Northey & Daniher era's we fell short on having enough good footballers.  The ones we had were fine, we just needed about 5 or 6 more (good footballers)

Currently we're pushing our 'good footballer' numbers up ... it might sit at about 7 or 8 on actual output right now but if we get the number to 13-16, lookout.  The Hawks have hovered around that number for a number of years now ... Sydney & Geelong the same (more so previously with the Cats)

Good point Macca. Looking back at the momentous final against North in the Northey years, I was reminded how many ordinary players or B graders we had. However, Northey was able to weld those players into a formidable team,

[Macca 16,174]

2 minutes ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

I think the Tommy Mac talk can be boiled down to one thing.

He occasionally tries to do too much. I am especially not a fan of his balk, get around man and then kick it like a sack of potatoes down the throat of an opposition player because he hasn't regained his balance move.

That being said, this can be remedied. I remember a young Nathan Jones had an unfortunate habit of trying to run through his man around 2009-2011 rather than stop, think and look for a better option to pass to. With a bit of maturity, he lost this habit and became the player he is today. I can't see why Tommy can't do the same.

But here's the thing Col ... he is what he is.  He takes the game on on an almost constant basis and because of that, he's going to make the odd error.  If the coaches want him to never make errors then he'd then be maybe asked to be a lock down defender who looks for the sanctuary of the boundary line (or such-like)  And I don't want that - not in today's footy.

Like Watts & a few others, Tom is almost certainly not going to be the player that people want him to be.  Hogan's kicking action is never going to be perfect either but I can live with that too.  I could add other such examples but I reckon we should be more inclined to take the good with the bad when a player's good points allows that player to reach B or B+ status.

And again, Tom was one of our best yesterday ... when the game was on the line, he excelled. 

[Guest]

Just now, Macca said:

But here's the thing Col ... he is what he is.  He takes the game on on an almost constant basis and because of that, he's going to make the odd error.  If the coaches want him to never make errors then he'd then be maybe asked to be a lock down defender who looks for the sanctuary of the boundary line (or such-like)  And I don't want that - not in today's footy.

Like Watts & a few others, Tom is almost certainly not going to be the player that people want him to be.  Hogan's kicking action is never going to be perfect either but I can live with that too.  I could add other such examples but I reckon we should be more inclined to take the good with the bad when a player's good points allows that player to reach B or B+ status.

And again, Tom was one of our best yesterday ... when the game was on the line, he excelled. 

It's not necessarily a case of not wanting him to take the game on at all. It's knowing when to do so and being able to finish off the final maneuver in the sequence I mentioned before. If Tommy can balk, settle and get the right option then fine. Unfortunately, he tends to get around his man and then shank it, mostly because he hasn't retained balance from the balk.

That will come with a bit more experience (though Tommy is a 5th year player now). I don't believe that it should have him dropped from the team by any stretch of the imagination. He is a great defender.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Just now, Macca said:

But here's the thing Col ... he is what he is.  He takes the game on on an almost constant basis and because of that, he's going to make the odd error.  If the coaches want him to never make errors then he'd then be maybe asked to be a lock down defender who looks for the sanctuary of the boundary line (or such-like)  And I don't want that - not in today's footy.

Like Watts & a few others, Tom is almost certainly not going to be the player that people want him to be.  Hogan's kicking action is never going to be perfect either but I can live with that too.  I could add other such examples but I reckon we should be more inclined to take the good with the bad when a player's good points allows that player to reach B or B+ status.

And again, Tom was one of our best yesterday ... when the game was on the line, he excelled. 

Yes Macca, we get it - he is what he is.  The problem is where he plays.  I'm all for the risk taking, but your comparison to someone like Watts is not valid.  They play different roles in different parts of the ground.  If Watts turns the ball over it's in the front half, if Tom turns the ball over it's generally in the back half where the opposition can do the most damage.

Again, it comes down to his decision making, and this rubbish of 'he is what he is' is short sighted.  He can improve his decision making by taking the safest option when no other good option is available.  If he needs to kick across the middle of the ground or pin point a pass that really isn't on then he should get into the mindset of ignoring that and going long.  I'd rather the ball be turned over up field than across the ground where they have plenty of space.  He can easily change this mindset and learn to choose the right time to take the risk.

He is a terrific defender and he brings lots of excellent attributes to our side.  He just needs to tighten up on the decision making as he plays in a part of the ground where mistakes are punished more often than others.

[Vineytime 796]

Hibberd, Milkshake Bernie & Hunt are a nice combo down back, room for Jetta??

Edited February 26, 2017 by Vineytime

[Mazer Rackham 14,970]

What we are seeing with Tommy is a sign that our team has improved out of sight. And what were idiosyncrasies of players are now viewed as glaring deficiencies.

Yes, Tommy does have a deficiency -- has always had it -- his ball drop is too high -- leads to some shocking kicks. Clean that up and his dashing moves will have him looking more like David Dench and less like Zac Dawson.

It's like when you weed the garden. You see a bunch of big weeds. You pull them out and suddenly there are a bunch of smaller weeds that you hadn't even noticed. Pull them out and behold! there are now even more smaller weeds that you hadn't seen.

We are now focusing on the small weeds.

We're seeing it with Vince too. Our steady hand in defence these days looks occasionally shaky.

This is good -- it shows our definite improvement. Our garden is thriving.

Where three years ago VDB would have looked like the future of our midfield, now he looks like handy depth. Ben Ken, JKH, etc.

[Macca 16,174]

Just now, Colin B. Flaubert said:

It's not necessarily a case of not wanting him to take the game on at all. It's knowing when to do so and being able to finish off the final maneuver in the sequence I mentioned before. If Tommy can balk, settle and get the right option then fine. Unfortunately, he tends to get around his man and then shank it, mostly because he hasn't retained balance from the balk.

That will come with a bit more experience (though Tommy is a 5th year player now). I don't believe that it should have him dropped from the team by any stretch of the imagination. He is a great defender.

It's actually his 7th year now Col (time flies hey?) so I reckon what we're seeing is probably what we're going to get.  I acknowledge what you're saying though and he is actually getting better anyway. 

He hasn't always been asked to play in this fashion as we played a boundary hugging style under Neeld and in Roos' first year and a half, we were often not attacking from the backline in the way that we are now.

Honestly, it's the way I want to see the team play and I can live with the odd error from any player as a consequence.  If we're going to be any good we're going to need that quick drive from the backline.

Even Barassi threw Robbie on to the half back flank.

[dazzledavey36 49,794]

Jordan Lewis has his say.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/melbourne/jordan-lewis-says-melbourne-reminds-him-hawthorn/news-story/2bcf387d90ee0abac7c957f9ff95cc39?utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_source=HeraldSun&utm_medium=Twitter

[DemonOX 8,578]

38 minutes ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

I think the Tommy Mac talk can be boiled down to one thing.

He occasionally tries to do too much. I am especially not a fan of his balk, get around man and then kick it like a sack of potatoes down the throat of an opposition player because he hasn't regained his balance move.

That being said, this can be remedied. I remember a young Nathan Jones had an unfortunate habit of trying to run through his man around 2009-2011 rather than stop, think and look for a better option to pass to. With a bit of maturity, he lost this habit and became the player he is today. I can't see why Tommy can't do the same.

Better that TMac tries too hard than not at all imo. 

[Macca 16,174]

10 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Yes Macca, we get it - he is what he is.  The problem is where he plays.  I'm all for the risk taking, but your comparison to someone like Watts is not valid.  They play different roles in different parts of the ground.  If Watts turns the ball over it's in the front half, if Tom turns the ball over it's generally in the back half where the opposition can do the most damage.

I used Watts as an example of expectations versus what we actually get.  We will have high expectations on Lewis and most will want Petracca,  Oliver,  Brayshaw,  Weideman and a few others to be top players.

That may or may not happen with all that lot and if it doesn't, c'est la vie.  They'll all be trying their best to be the best player that they can be but 1 or 2 may fall short. 

 

 

[Nasher 33,246]

11 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Jordan Lewis has his say.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/melbourne/jordan-lewis-says-melbourne-reminds-him-hawthorn/news-story/2bcf387d90ee0abac7c957f9ff95cc39?utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_source=HeraldSun&utm_medium=Twitter

I've now seen Lewis twice park himself in the vicinity of full back and stop goals at points in the game where we might have started to lose some momentum.  This kind of experience is invaluable.  Still can't believe our luck.