4 hours ago, mo64 said:

I agree with Picket, O. Mac looks out of his depth at the moment. He was awful today against terrible opposition. Fumbled when he had time and space. Was incapable of putting any physical pressure on the opposition. I was crying out for Dunn today.

That's not to say that O.Mac won't make it at AFL level. For years people on here have been bemoaning the fact that we don't give our youngsters time to develop. Here is a classic case where a player should spend time at Casey until he starts dominating at VFL level. As Picket said, O. Mac is probably a year and a half away.

Agree 100%

I'll chip in.

Whilst I've in no way written the guy off, I would like to say that I've seen more to dislike than like at this stage in his career.

And yesterday's game he just looked like a deer in headlights.

Was incredibly slow, lacked intensity, decision making, ability to spoil effectively etc.

He was a third or fourth round pick? As a KPD going that late in a draft it's obvious that there will be more obvious weaknesses in your game.

It's the same with Tom. They're both late pick defenders. Not top end ones. They both have some pretty obvious weaknesses in their game.

Oscar has time at this stage, but that fact that he was given a game yesterday ahead of someone like Dunn at this stage in his development is a fairly worrying sign to me.

We really do have a very unsettled and dysfunctional set of KP defenders at the minute and we're leaking goals because of it. 

50 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I'll chip in.

Whilst I've in no way written the guy off, I would like to say that I've seen more to dislike than like at this stage in his career.

And yesterday's game he just looked like a deer in headlights.

Was incredibly slow, lacked intensity, decision making, ability to spoil effectively etc.

He was a third or fourth round pick? As a KPD going that late in a draft, I think he was always pretty speculative unless of course 'injury' was the sole reason he slipped. But in this case it wasn't.

It's the same with Tom. They're both late pick defenders. Not top end ones. And there's a reason for that. They both have some pretty obvious weaknesses in their game.

Oscar has time at this stage, but that fact that he was given a game yesterday ahead of someone like Dunn at this stage in his development is a fairly worrying sign to me.

We really do have a very unsettled and dysfunctional set of KP defenders at the minute and we're leaking goals because of it. 

Absolutely nothing to do with the opposition rebounding quickly from their 50 and the forwards and mids not getting back to cover their men and assisting the defenders, we play an 18 man defence now, when it is not 18 we get goals kicked against us

49 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Absolutely nothing to do with the opposition rebounding quickly from their 50 and the forwards and mids not getting back to cover their men and assisting the defenders, we play an 18 man defence now, when it is not 18 we get goals kicked against us

In the game against St Kilda and the Bulldogs I would agree with this comment. But yesterday it was often about inability to compete effectively in a one-on-one contest, not easy ball out the back.

If Oscar was at Hawthorn or Geelong he would spend 40-50 games in the VFL developing his skills & learning the game which is what should happen to  most players unless they are super talented.

How our Brains Trust believe that Oscar is a better bet in defence than Frost has got me flummoxed. 

I was impressed with his pre-season form. He's obviously well liked within the club, and I dare say has the right character traits and belief that will establish himself as a regular over time. He's raw, green and is as keen as mustard to improve - much the same as his brother Tom came on after a few years in the system.

The premature calls for his head are ridiculous.

The thing that has me stumped is that pretty much all the players who have come in through the Scorps this year have been made to put in multiple strong performances.  From the reviews here and on the MFC site OMac hasn't been performing strongly at VFL yet he was brought in.  

I think in reality that's why he looked so far off the pace.

1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

Absolutely nothing to do with the opposition rebounding quickly from their 50 and the forwards and mids not getting back to cover their men and assisting the defenders, we play an 18 man defence now, when it is not 18 we get goals kicked against us

Sometimes I feel like you just spit out anything you hear the club say in a presser/interview because you think it's relevant.

It is glaringly obvious that we conceded goals in the manner that you just described, as all clubs do.

Does it mean that goals are in no way conceded from sub-par defending, an inability to kill a ball in a spoil, weak body-checking, dumb play and turnovers from the back-line also?

No.

It doesn't.

But thanks for pointing out the obvious.

Let OMac spend some time with Brendan and Justin and we will have a good player. He needs development both physically and in game experience. 

Our defence was woeful again yesterday, particularly given the quality of the opposition. Oscar was pretty ordinary in parts, but he certainly wasn't noticeably worse than any of his more experienced teammates in that part of the ground. It was a good game to play him, and we lost nothing for it. That said, he should only play when match-ups and opposition dictate it, and that probably shouldn't include the next fortnight. Frawley came good towards the end of his third season, and was All Australian in his fourth. Tom's trajectory was fairly similar, so we are still at least twelve months from Oscar being a decent player.

11 minutes ago, H_T said:

I was impressed with his pre-season form. He's obviously well liked within the club, and I dare say has the right character traits and belief that will establish himself as a regular over time. He's raw, green and is as keen as mustard to improve - much the same as his brother Tom came on after a few years in the system.

The premature calls for his head are ridiculous.

Once again, someone exaggerates with the old "calling for his head", when a poster makes a legitimate assessment of a young player. 

I would have thought that we're at a stage that winning is all that matters. In O. Mac's case, development can take place at Casey where it's warranted, not inthe senior side where he looks overawed.

14 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Once again, someone exaggerates with the old "calling for his head", when a poster makes a legitimate assessment of a young player. 

I would have thought that we're at a stage that winning is all that matters. In O. Mac's case, development can take place at Casey where it's warranted, not inthe senior side where he looks overawed.

That's your opinion. And IMO posting that OMac is not up to AFL standard and should be at Casey all year are not legitimate assessments. 

Just now, H_T said:

That's your opinion. And IMO posting that OMac is not up to AFL standard and should be at Casey all year are not legitimate assessments. 

No, most comments are that currently he is not ready and that he needs more time to develop at Casey.

1 minute ago, Clint Bizkit said:

No, most comments are that currently he is not ready and that he needs more time to develop at Casey.

Was I refering to majority of comments? No.

We do not have any 'tall' defenders. Oscar is the tallest at 196cm. Tall against recent, older elite forwards but not 'tall' given that most of the best AFL forwards and the young brigade forwards with whom he will compete during his career are mostly over 196cm, right up to 202cm.

Yes, Oscar needs to put on weight but this cannot be 'fast tracked'.  By the time his body is developed enough he will have 30 to 40 AFL games under his belt.  His likely opposition will have more:  Moore, Daniher, McCartin, Dixon, Lynch.  He may need to be rested from time to time otherwise every game he plays takes him one step closer to being a key member of our backline. 

Those on here saying he should be at Casey are the same ones who in a few years will be saying we have no defender tall enough to play against the leading forwards!  Look beyond this year folks and it is easy to see what the coaches are doing with Oscar.

I think he'll have to straddle Casey and Dees . It will just be part of his development, as is with many through the list now. Yes he needs to get experience but he also needs to refine his craft. Theres no other way to adjust to AFL temp than be immersed in it but it will need to be a balancing act. Yesterday was simply an opportunity I feel.Fumbling doesnt help.

20 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

We do not have any 'tall' defenders. Oscar is the tallest at 196cm. Tall against recent, older elite forwards but not 'tall' given that most of the best AFL forwards and the young brigade forwards with whom he will compete during his career are mostly over 196cm, right up to 202cm.

Yes, Oscar needs to put on weight but this cannot be 'fast tracked'.  By the time his body is developed enough he will have 30 to 40 AFL games under his belt.  His likely opposition will have more:  Moore, Daniher, McCartin, Dixon, Lynch.  He may need to be rested from time to time otherwise every game he plays takes him one step closer to being a key member of our backline. 

Those on here saying he should be at Casey are the same ones who in a few years will be saying we have no defender tall enough to play against the leading forwards!  Look beyond this year folks and it is easy to see what the coaches are doing with Oscar.

Height is irrelevant. The most important skill of a key defender is the use of their body to out position or out strength their opponent. O. Mac displayed none of that, in fact he got out muscled by midgets.

Just now, mo64 said:

Once again, someone exaggerates with the old "calling for his head", when a poster makes a legitimate assessment of a young player. 

I would have thought that we're at a stage that winning is all that matters. In O. Mac's case, development can take place at Casey where it's warranted, not inthe senior side where he looks overawed.

The OP was not a legitimate assessment.  Picket never makes those.

But I agree that most have merely commented that he isn't ready which, based on yesterday's performance, would be correct.  There is no reason why Dunn couldn't come in and play that role with more confidence in the coming weeks than what OMac has.  It doesn't mean the kid won't make it, he just needs a little more time to develop away from the spotlight.

13 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

The OP was not a legitimate assessment.  Picket never makes those.

Bingo.

21 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Height is irrelevant. The most important skill of a key defender is the use of their body to out position or out strength their opponent. O. Mac displayed none of that, in fact he got out muscled by midgets.

Height is irrelevant?  How many on here (not necessarily you mo64) have lamented over recent weeks that we are too short down back?  Forward lines are getting taller.  Back lines need to do likewise.  He is out muscled because he is 82 kgs.  As I said there is no way of fast tracking his physical growth (unless a 2012 EFC program is adopted...said with tongue in cheek! ).  

Just saying for people to understand and trust what the coaches are doing.  Roos has said we will have inconsistent results (ie lose some games) because we are a young side.  Losing games because of inexperience may not be acceptable to some supporters.  Its the old Catch 22 in a way!  

Dunn seems to not be part of our future (wouldn't be surprised if he is traded this year) so not sure who else we are going to play down back.  It seems to me that when Oscar or Wagner are rested, Lumumba will be the preferred replacement.  I would expect that barring injuries the 3 will be rotated during the year. 

I have no doubt we will be applauding Oscar's development in due course.  Young players will be rested as required, including Oscar.  But I like that he is getting some AFL games while growing (in all senses) especially as we have little backline depth. 

Was at the game yesterday, Oscar was no where near as bad as some posters are making out. For a bloke playing his 4th game at 19, as a kpd, looks to have a solid future. 

 

No surprise to see some of the posters potting him here. The very same ones who just 14 quarters of football ago were saying petracca is a wasted draft pick. The very same posters who will look like even bigger fools when oscar has a consistent run of games and gets to 50-70 games experience. It just defies belief how there are still some wankpuffin posters on here who expect our young players to walk in and instantly be the finished product. 

Theres a far ranging gap from potting someone to simply critiquing his play. He did some good things, he did some not so well.  He needs to pick his feet up a bit and step up the gas at times and yes all these things come but  he may well find he needs to really take these chances by the scruff  in order to assure he gets more. Positions are getting harder and harder to get in this team.

A reality though is it was only Brisbane

23 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Height is irrelevant. The most important skill of a key defender is the use of their body to out position or out strength their opponent. O. Mac displayed none of that, in fact he got out muscled by midgets.

That's probably because the 'midgets' weigh more than Oscar McDonald. At the start of the season, Oscar was listed at 82kg, some considerable kilos less than players like Rich, Bastinac and Pearce and Bewick.

Freeman, for example, had 14kg on Oscar yesterday, plus a couple of centimetres. Tom Bell had 16kg. I heard a player from another club on the radio yesterday saying that in order to comfortably play as a key defender, he had added 16kg to his frame over the 5 years since he had been drafted. Tom McD is about 12kg heavier than Oscar with the extra 4 years experience.

Oscar therefore is a rangy, tall defender who needs some time to build an AFL-ready body. At the same time, some AFL level experience, combined with consolidation for periods at Casey, will benefit his development. Yesterday was a perfect match to give him some time.

1 hour ago, mo64 said:

I would have thought that we're at a stage that winning is all that matters. In O. Mac's case, development can take place at Casey where it's warranted, not inthe senior side where he looks overawed.

I don't think we've reached that stage yet. Winning is great, but our window based on the age of our list opens in 2-3 years, and in the meantime development is still as important as winning.

Look at some of our team before yesterday and the number of games they've played:

Hogan 28
Petracca 3
Oliver 6
Stretch 14
Newton 15
Michie 20
Oscar Mc 3
Hunt 5
Neal-Bullen 11
Wagner 6
Harmes 16

That's half the team that has played less than 30 games. All 11 combined have a tally the same as Jack Watts, and about 25% of Brent Harvey's! I thought yesterday was a good result given the age dimension. My thinking is not only 'in the now' but two years down the track when all these players have added 30-40 games to their experience.

I don't know what everyone expects from players so young, but I expect them to make some mistakes. I'm not making excuses, because our season so far has been terrific, but let's be realistic.

Just now, Generation dee said:

Was at the game yesterday, Oscar was no where near as bad as some posters are making out. For a bloke playing his 4th game at 19, as a kpd, looks to have a solid future. 

 

No surprise to see some of the posters potting him here. The very same ones who just 14 quarters of football ago were saying petracca is a wasted draft pick. The very same posters who will look like even bigger fools when oscar has a consistent run of games and gets to 50-70 games experience. It just defies belief how there are still some wankpuffin posters on here who expect our young players to walk in and instantly be the finished product. 

I think what most are arguing is not that they expect them to come in and be the finished product, but more that he has been promoted to the seniors before he is ready.  I don't think he was all that bad yesterday, although there were a few jittery moments in one on one situations.

I think may are being quite critical of our back line at the minute and not seeing the bigger picture - we are playing things very differently and these things take a little time.  Generally our back line win or break even in the contest, but are caught out when teams beat our press and they have an extra player or two free up the ground.  It makes things very hard when that happens and it's easy to pot the back half, but it doesn't entirely sit with them.

3 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I think what most are arguing is not that they expect them to come in and be the finished product, but more that he has been promoted to the seniors before he is ready.  I don't think he was all that bad yesterday, although there were a few jittery moments in one on one situations.

I think may are being quite critical of our back line at the minute and not seeing the bigger picture - we are playing things very differently and these things take a little time.  Generally our back line win or break even in the contest, but are caught out when teams beat our press and they have an extra player or two free up the ground.  It makes things very hard when that happens and it's easy to pot the back half, but it doesn't entirely sit with them.

Bingo! Could be oscar, Steve silvagni or the great Nathan Carroll back there, anyone is going to struggle defending when an opposition midfielder is on the counter and the forward has space. 

I must have missed a lot yesterday, of course he had some nervous moments, but I thought at times he linked up well, and killed a few contests as well. Fair bit to work with longer term.