On 27/07/2016 at 23:07, Generation dee said:

do you disagree that kicking a goal with numerous cameras, thousands of spectators and millions of home viewers, coupled with game time fatigue  and the pressure of the scoreboard is harder to prepare for than kicking at training? 

Indeed. It can be performance anxiety.

Like a golfer who has a few really good, relaxed practice swings, but when they're faced with actually hitting a ball to a direction and distance they tense up.

Relaxed goal kicking at training might be great, but when the pressure is actually on in a match to score it's different.

The whole bit about not needing to practice goal kicking is absurd. every player should have a set routine for set shots that is their default. If your routine is strong enough and you have got it ingrained enough then it doesn't matter the situation or how tired you are the routine will over ride all and you should be fine. Jesse is one who changes his routine within matches, he needs to settle on a routine that works and doesn't limit him and then stick to it. 

One of my old coaches favorite sayings (not football and she was an Olympian so knows about high performance) was Preparation Prevents Poor Performance, Perfect Preparation Prevents Poor Performance Permanently. She was very strong on routines for everything from training to pre game diet to game day prep etc etc. 

  On 27/07/2016 at 09:42, titan_uranus said:

Not sure this is a great argument. You're effectively saying "we're not as good as we look because we exceed the AFL average in a particular category".

Does that mean teams who excel at clearances aren't as good as they might seem because if they only came back to the pack on clearances, then they wouldn't get as much of the ball?

Nah just saying that our performance this year may not be as 'good' as we think it is. pretty easy concept.

  On 27/07/2016 at 09:31, Clint Bizkit said:

The best golfers in the world practice for hours most days.

I was going to post the same before reading your post.

Putting is golf's version of goal-kicking and it can be improved.  A poor putter will never become the best putter in the world, but through repetition with the right technique it can be improved significantly.  And it's improved on putting greens, which is then transferred to the course.

Goal-kicking can most definitely be improved through the right training procedures.

  On 27/07/2016 at 23:30, jnrmac said:

Nah just saying that our performance this year may not be as 'good' as we think it is. pretty easy concept.

Classic. Because we kicked the goals we have, we are where we are. But if we hadn't, we wouldn't be going as well as we are. Oh man you win the life award today. That's going to take some topping in a thread already full of classics. Are you Donald Rumsfeld? Please say yes.

  On 27/07/2016 at 09:42, titan_uranus said:

Not sure this is a great argument. You're effectively saying "we're not as good as we look because we exceed the AFL average in a particular category".

Does that mean teams who excel at clearances aren't as good as they might seem because if they only came back to the pack on clearances, then they wouldn't get as much of the ball?

Couldn't agree more, I feel like every time I come on here someone has found a new and improved way to be pessimistic.

Its like saying that Hawthorn isnt the best team of the last 5 years because the only thing they could do better than everyone else was win grand finals, take that away and what are they? 

  On 27/07/2016 at 22:19, Lucifer's Hero said:

In a few games we have done exactly that!  We 'crowd the contest' but op team keeps some players back, when they win the contest they spread and run like crazy to their forwards and (often an open) goal because our defenders had come up so far they can't get back fast enough. This was very vivid vs Ess, StK, Port and Sydney. 

This strategy is high risk if we don't win the ball and has cost us dozens of goals all year and a few games.

It is also high risk when we do win it because often Viney and Tyson try to take on the tackler or kick it out.  The ops know that so they let them 'win' it and gang tackle forcing the ball free or get a free kick. (Hawthorn are the absolute masters at this).  Ops half forwards are ready and expect this so as soon as the tackle happens they start to spread forward before our defenders can catch up.  Again it often ends up in an easy goal.

In summary, I'm not a fan of 'crowding the contest' if the op don't or if Viney and Tyson can't get the ball out faster.  We have a better chance of the 'crowding the contest' strategy working when Oliver plays as he has such quick hands, god bless him.  Nonetheless,opponets have figured out our strategy and know how to neutralise it. 

Hope we have some other tricks up our sleeve!

Spot on.

  On 27/07/2016 at 22:19, Lucifer's Hero said:

In a few games we have done exactly that!  We 'crowd the contest' but op team keeps some players back, when they win the contest they spread and run like crazy to their forwards and (often an open) goal because our defenders had come up so far they can't get back fast enough. This was very vivid vs Ess, StK, Port and Sydney. 

This strategy is high risk if we don't win the ball and has cost us dozens of goals all year and a few games.

It is also high risk when we do win it because often Viney and Tyson try to take on the tackler or kick it out.  The ops know that so they let them 'win' it and gang tackle forcing the ball free or get a free kick. (Hawthorn are the absolute masters at this).  Ops half forwards are ready and expect this so as soon as the tackle happens they start to spread forward before our defenders can catch up.  Again it often ends up in an easy goal.

In summary, I'm not a fan of 'crowding the contest' if the op don't or if Viney and Tyson can't get the ball out faster.  We have a better chance of the 'crowding the contest' strategy working when Oliver plays as he has such quick hands, god bless him.  Nonetheless,opponets have figured out our strategy and know how to neutralise it. 

Hope we have some other tricks up our sleeve!

Great post.

Watching Sydney and Hawthorn, they just always have space because they never crowd the ball in the first place. Structure is so important and maintaining it requires almost no skill or ability.

  On 27/07/2016 at 23:39, ProDee said:

I was going to post the same before reading your post.

Putting is golf's version of goal-kicking and it can be improved.  A poor putter will never become the best putter in the world, but through repetition with the right technique it can be improved significantly.  And it's improved on putting greens, which is then transferred to the course.

Goal-kicking can most definitely be improved through the right training procedures.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/afl-goalkicking-coach-ben-dixon-says-players-are-thriving-under-the-freedom-to-practice-their-craft/news-story/48a1eacd226f03ff756dc322b51b7ef5

  On 27/07/2016 at 23:17, mauriesy said:

Indeed. It can be performance anxiety.

Like a golfer who has a few really good, relaxed practice swings, but when they're faced with actually hitting a ball to a direction and distance they tense up.

Relaxed goal kicking at training might be great, but when the pressure is actually on in a match to score it's different.

As such, very much the case. So is it reasonable therefore to think the more a routine is practiced , the more routine and less 'occasion overtured' it might become ?

No professional worth their Salt, doesn't practice, in any sport etc. Even Snooker and such. Repetition brings calm and consistency.

  On 27/07/2016 at 11:45, Ricky P said:

Yeah good point, those goals from the boundary are more common.

My favourite goal is the running sealer. Stinga was a specialist. Bernie is pretty good at it these days.

My favourite goal is the one that puts us more goals up than there are minutes left in the game.

  On 27/07/2016 at 23:07, Generation dee said:

It's half correct

 I think your distaste for that poster clouds your comprehension of what he is saying. Which is fine, but do you disagree that kicking a goal with numerous cameras, thousands of spectators and millions of home viewers, coupled with game time fatigue  and the pressure of the scoreboard is harder to prepare for than kicking at training? 

but that is why you practice and practice, so when the time comes in a game under pressure you just resort to what has become instinctive due to repeated practice. in other words you don't have to even think about it, you just do it. barry cable was regarded as one of the best handballers going around but every time after training he would come into the sheds and spend 15-30 mins practising handball  against a bulls-eye target. practice is not just about correcting errors and perfecting technique it's just as much about keeping it instinctive and natural, nor is it just something for the less skilled 

My personal observation and experience is training and practicing of kicking ( even of General ) was very needed.

I only ever played footy at a fairly lowly amateur level but i took it seriously as such. I played 90℅ of my games as a fwd...and of those about 2/3 as FF. I have some idea of the idea of kicking goals if albeitly at a far less than elite level. Still, the mechanics are the same. So are the expectancies and reliance of team mates. You have the ball , it's down to YOU.

I spent countless hours at a park(s) kicking at sticks. Both from a standing run-up as well as throwing ball out in front and just trying to make the best of its bounce or pick up on the fly. I practiced a lot ( probably needed it lol ) . What this was about I suppose was building my zone. I built a headspace that I could go to whether in a game or at a local ( or not ) park . I took this 'zone' to practice (team ) and took it to games. 

Every game will throw up random events but it's amazing how more able you are ifitsnot quiteso unique because you've made a similar Kick sometime before.

It helped me no end ( and I needed it lol ) and I should imagine it has to help anyone at any level.

There's a reason the saying exists..

Practice makes Perfect !! ( or as close as you'll ever get )

Muscle memory is key for goal kicking.

I'm more of a basketballer nowadays, but in my mid-30s I've been using the same routine literally every time I shoot a free throw since I was about 10.

It works for me, and has for that long.

  On 28/07/2016 at 01:19, beelzebub said:

My personal observation and experience is training and practicing of kicking ( even of General ) was very needed.

I only ever played footy at a fairly lowly amateur level but i took it seriously as such. I played 90℅ of my games as a fwd...and of those about 2/3 as FF. I have some idea of the idea of kicking goals if albeitly at a far less than elite level. Still, the mechanics are the same. So are the expectancies and reliance of team mates. You have the ball , it's down to YOU.

I spent countless hours at a park(s) kicking at sticks. Both from a standing run-up as well as throwing ball out in front and just trying to make the best of its bounce or pick up on the fly. I practiced a lot ( probably needed it lol ) . What this was about I suppose was building my zone. I built a headspace that I could go to whether in a game or at a local ( or not ) park . I took this 'zone' to practice (team ) and took it to games. 

Every game will throw up random events but it's amazing how more able you are ifitsnot quiteso unique because you've made a similar Kick sometime before.

It helped me no end ( and I needed it lol ) and I should imagine it has to help anyone at any level.

There's a reason the saying exists..

Practice makes Perfect !! ( or as close as you'll ever get )

How many goals did you kick Bub?

  On 28/07/2016 at 01:27, iv'a worn smith said:

How many goals did you kick Bub?

a few

( but tbh...useless from beyond about 45-50 m )

  On 28/07/2016 at 01:45, beelzebub said:

a few

( but tbh...useless from beyond about 45-50 m )

The Jesse Hogan of your team?

  On 28/07/2016 at 01:49, Clint Bizkit said:

The Jesse Hogan of your team?

I wish..  was more built like a coathanger  than a bullock for most of my footy.( think Morton..lol )  Oddly enough was bigger when playing bball later on. ( always played bball but gave footy away in late 20's , in the main ). 

About the only parallel is you cant get too fixated on a position...its about the 'play'  Footy too fluid.

but back to practicing

I was I suppose OK for what I was..  ( very amateur) ...but was much better for practice

I will use words carfefully....   I had a number of footies. Kept one in new nick..and replaced every year. I also would grease up a ball ( previous year's )  deliberately ( bacon fat if anyone was interested ) This,  and would 'wet' balls to simulate adversity...lol Would also go out on rainy days...Just to literally aclimatise..

Yeah...was a footy tragic

When you think about it...not practicing is idiotic. Good job pilots do eh !!  

  On 28/07/2016 at 00:51, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

My favourite goal is the one that puts us more goals up than there are minutes left in the game.

Yeah 30 goals up at 3/4 time is my favourite

  On 28/07/2016 at 01:11, daisycutter said:

but that is why you practice and practice, so when the time comes in a game under pressure you just resort to what has become instinctive due to repeated practice. in other words you don't have to even think about it, you just do it. barry cable was regarded as one of the best handballers going around but every time after training he would come into the sheds and spend 15-30 mins practising handball  against a bulls-eye target. practice is not just about correcting errors and perfecting technique it's just as much about keeping it instinctive and natural, nor is it just something for the less skilled 

Exactly. As some have noted golf is the perfect example of the need for repitition and hours and hours of practice drills, relying as it does so fundamentally on technique.

  On 28/07/2016 at 01:45, beelzebub said:

a few

( but tbh...useless from beyond about 45-50 m )

C'mon Bub.  Your total goals should be etched indelibly in your memory and preserved for posterity's sake.  I know how many I kicked in my career = 5

Then again, I was a half back flanker - and that's not meant to be rhyming slang -  in the days when you stayed in your position

  On 28/07/2016 at 00:23, Clint Bizkit said:

Great post.

Watching Sydney and Hawthorn, they just always have space because they never crowd the ball in the first place. Structure is so important and maintaining it requires almost no skill or ability.

I have often wondered what the KPIs for our players are and where the emphasis is. It seems very much that its based on contested possessions, marks etc. Clarkson is on record as not rating contested possession but score involvements. We don't seem to rate score involvements just the actual goal kicked. I am aware through people that are close to the FD at Richmond that they also rate score involvements (not just goal assists). Geelong and the Bulldogs have similar philosophies according to players I know. They don't play as congested as we do and at times they look like they are playing basketball.

  On 28/07/2016 at 03:37, Samael said:

I have often wondered what the KPIs for our players are and where the emphasis is. It seems very much that its based on contested possessions, marks etc. Clarkson is on record as not rating contested possession but score involvements. We don't seem to rate score involvements just the actual goal kicked. I am aware through people that are close to the FD at Richmond that they also rate score involvements (not just goal assists). Geelong and the Bulldogs have similar philosophies according to players I know. They don't play as congested as we do and at times they look like they are playing basketball.

It might just be a long-term development plan by the coaches to at first improve possession numbers and then focus on the structure part later, but that's just a guess.

  On 27/07/2016 at 21:33, Brownie said:

that's like being a guitarist and only playing the guitar once a week when you're on stage in front of a big crowd. 

yes it's different for sure on match day. but you play that instrument every day until you don't even have to think about it.

there's a great saying I heard from a jazz musician once.

don't practice for a day.. you'll know it.

don't practice for two days.. the band knows it

don't practice for three days.. the whole world knows it.

I reckon sport is no different. preparation is everything.

Keith Richard would be interested in that, hardly practices.

Back to the  kicking, every player who comes onto a list should know the basics   it is executing them at AFL level in a game that is the issue   no amount of practice will change that   why players get delisted

  On 28/07/2016 at 04:48, Satyriconhome said:

Keith Richard would be interested in that, hardly practices.

Back to the  kicking, every player who comes onto a list should know the basics   it is executing them at AFL level in a game that is the issue   no amount of practice will change that   why players get delisted

Im sorry Saty , you continually pick exceptions to the norms .  Just about EVERY professional sport I can think of PRACTICES and will do so for not only overall games ability but specifc elements. 

Great golfers practice every element of their games...Driving. short game...putting.. hours in bunkers etc. Tennis players .. 1000's of serves.  Cricket..batting to particular actions etc.

Ya reckon Beckam just woke up one day and bent it ??