Elite Status

[Sir Why You Little 36,772]

1 minute ago, beelzebub said:

Mr Stynes says hello  ( if he could ) 

Jimmy was a legend as we know but i don't consider him as elite. 

One rung down for mine. He never fully mastered kicking an Aussie Rules footy. 

But NO ONE had a bigger heart. 

[H_T 3,042]

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Jimmy was a legend as we know but i don't consider him as elite. 

One rung down for mine. He never fully mastered kicking an Aussie Rules footy. 

But NO ONE had a bigger heart. 

Stynes had an elite season.

[beelzebub 23,254]

I consider most Brownlow winners to be elite. 

[Sir Why You Little 36,772]

1 minute ago, H_T said:

Stynes had an elite season.

Fair Comment he was fantastic in '91

[Sir Why You Little 36,772]

1 minute ago, beelzebub said:

I consider most Brownlow winners to be elite. 

Dipper was definately an Elite Thug..

[Lucifers Hero 39,074]

5 minutes ago, H_T said:

Stynes had an elite season.

And that is the real criteria for elite.  For a season and then another season, then another.

Roos described Gawn's Collingwood game as elite but qualified it with something along the lines of "but he needs to do it week in and week out to be an elite player of the competition".

I don't think we currently have an 'elite player of the competition'.  Gawn, Viney are our candidates in the next few years (given my criteria of performing at an elite level, season after season).   Watts and Petracca are potentials as well.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Lucifer's Hero

[mo64 5,668]

30 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Not Viney?

I think Jetta could be the smokey.

Viney would need to improve his disposal to get close to elite class. His contested ball winning is elite, isn't damaging enough when he gets his hands on it.

Jetta is a borderline B-Grader. Chris Johnson was the best small defender in recent history, and nobody classifies him as an elite player.

[Little Richard 6,219]

20 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

I consider most Brownlow winners to be elite. 

Woewodin?

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

56 minutes ago, deespicable me said:

In the third quarter of the Queens Birthday match against Collingwood there was a period of time, almost 15 minutes where even though we were 20 odd points up the game was in the balance. The ball was going from one end to the other, there were mistakes, turnovers and missed shots on goal. The game was crying out for someone to do something special, inspiring.

Hogan in a four minute period took a beautiful contested mark on the wing against three Collingwood forgetables, then another contested mark 35 metres out and slots the goal. Game over. I'll never forget it. That for me was his arrival as someone who can win a game off his own boot. 

Yes! those 2 marks were huge! A player who is good enough to just come up and say 'bugger it, I'll do it myself'. Those kind of things take a star and makes them a superstar.

[Moonshadow 17,638]

The Brownlow is an antiquated award system based around a group of men who should focus on the game at hand 100% and not be put in a position of deciding who is the best and fairest player in the land. Wish it were overhauled to more accurately reflect the importance it has on the football community. ATM a Brownlow in no way guarantees elite status.

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

10 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Viney would need to improve his disposal to get close to elite class. His contested ball winning is elite, isn't damaging enough when he gets his hands on it.

Jetta is a borderline B-Grader. Chris Johnson was the best small defender in recent history, and nobody classifies him as an elite player.

Chris Judd and Dane Swan are both considered elite in their peak and both of their disposal was about as good as Tmac, blindfolded and on ice. They just play to their strengths as Viney is doing now. Nothing super fancy just win the ball and give it to the more slick and skilled players. Keep that up and that will make him an elite ball winner. More than enough of what we need.

[H_T 3,042]

1 minute ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Chris Judd and Dane Swan are both considered elite in their peak and both of their disposal was about as good as Tmac, blindfolded and on ice. 

I'm trying to work this one out...

About as good as Tmac you say?

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

6 minutes ago, H_T said:

I'm trying to work this one out...

About as good as Tmac you say?

haha I was sugesting that TMac (who we all know can make some mind boggling errors) is just as likely to hit his target kicking while standing on ice as either of those 2 are kicking normally. They were terrible users of the ball they were just teriffic ball winners who kept it simple. 

[H_T 3,042]

7 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

haha I was sugesting that TMac (who we all know can make some mind boggling errors) is just as likely to hit his target kicking while standing on ice as either of those 2 are kicking normally. They were terrible users of the ball they were just teriffic ball winners who kept it simple. 

I think you had "blindfolded" as well...

AW I disagree. If I could put Judd's kicking skills into TMac, implement them. I would. 

If you disagree with this. I'm happy to agree to disagree.

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

5 minutes ago, H_T said:

I think you had "blindfolded" as well...

AW I disagree. If I could put Judd's kicking skills into TMac, implement them. I would. 

If you disagree with this. I'm happy to agree to disagree.

I think judd was a poor kick but he limited himself. Tyson has done the same this year. Nothing over the top, do the basics well and you suddenly look really good! Tmac does the same and suddenly he becomes a star rebounding defender. Its more of elite decision making thing Judd had going for him, not so much pure skill. But either way we'll agree he was a super player.

[Ricky P 757]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Agree we over rank our players

it is understandable, but also an indicment that we haven't had a truly elite player since R. Flower

(G Lyon was mighty close as was B Wilson)

Harsh on Neita - all Australian in two different key positions, Coleman medal winner and grand final captain.

[Little Richard 6,219]

5 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Chris Judd and Dane Swan are both considered elite in their peak and both of their disposal was about as good as Tmac, blindfolded and on ice. They just play to their strengths as Viney is doing now. Nothing super fancy just win the ball and give it to the more slick and skilled players. Keep that up and that will make him an elite ball winner. More than enough of what we need.

Kicking left a bit to be desired, especially for Judd.. But definitely handballing was elite for both. I actually think Viney's kicking skills are judged harshly, and people put too much weight on when he boots the ball away from a stoppage at all costs.

[Sir Why You Little 36,772]

23 minutes ago, Ricky P said:

Harsh on Neita - all Australian in two different key positions, Coleman medal winner and grand final captain.

Harsh but fair. He was just below the elite in those positions

told me himself that he played a shocker in the 2000 GF

That's the day to shine

[Little Richard 6,219]

32 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

I think judd was a poor kick but he limited himself. Tyson has done the same this year. Nothing over the top, do the basics well and you suddenly look really good! Tmac does the same and suddenly he becomes a star rebounding defender. Its more of elite decision making thing Judd had going for him, not so much pure skill. But either way we'll agree he was a super player.

Tyson looks even better when he slams home those goals from outside 50. Just can't seem to get it together over a shorter distance.

[Little Richard 6,219]

3 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Harsh but fair. He was just below the elite in those positions

told me himself that he played a shocker in the 2000 GF

That's the day to shine

There are still a number of 'elite' (don't like the term) players who haven't played in a GF.

[binman 42,169]

1 hour ago, Moonshadow said:

ATM a Brownlow in no way guarantees elite status.

I'm not sure i agree.

This is a list of the winner in the last 28 years, which is a pretty big sample size. I think you could mount a strong argument that only Shane Woewodin and perhaps Scott Wyndd and Tony Liberatore would not be considered an elite player by most:

1987	John Platten	Hawthorn	20
	Tony Lockett	St Kilda	20
1988	Gerard Healy	Sydney	20
1989	Paul Couch	Geelong	22
1990	Tony Liberatore	Footscray	18
1991	Jim Stynes	Melbourne	25
1992	Scott Wynd	Footscray	20
1993	Gavin Wanganeen	Essendon	18
1994	Greg Williams	Carlton	30
1995	Paul Kelly	Sydney	21
1996	James Hird	Essendon	21
	Michael Voss	Brisbane Bears	21
1997	Robert Harvey	St Kilda	26
1998	Robert Harvey	St Kilda	32
1999	Shane Crawford	Hawthorn	28
2000	Shane Woewodin	Melbourne	24
2001	Jason Akermanis	Brisbane Lions	23
2002	Simon Black	Brisbane Lions	25
2003	Mark Ricciuto	Adelaide	22
	Nathan Buckley	Collingwood	22
	Adam Goodes	Sydney	22
2004	Chris Judd	West Coast	30
2005	Ben Cousins	West Coast	20
2006	Adam Goodes	Sydney	26
2007	Jimmy Bartel	Geelong	29
2008	Adam Cooney	Western Bulldogs	24
2009	Gary Ablett Jr	Geelong	30
2010	Chris Judd	Carlton	30
2011	Dane Swan	Collingwood	34
2012	Jobe Watson∗	Essendon	30
2013	Gary Ablett Jr	Gold Coast	28
2014	Matt Priddis	West Coast	26
2015	Nathan Fyfe	Fremantle	31

Edited June 22, 2016 by binman

[Sir Why You Little 36,772]

9 minutes ago, Django said:

There are still a number of 'elite' (don't like the term) players who haven't played in a GF.

Yes. But the real elite always played well on the day

it was their game

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

13 minutes ago, Django said:

Kicking left a bit to be desired, especially for Judd.. But definitely handballing was elite for both. I actually think Viney's kicking skills are judged harshly, and people put too much weight on when he boots the ball away from a stoppage at all costs.

yeah it is a bit harsh at times, boot from a pack is all swan was ever good at, just have to keep it going forward. But I do like the way Viney is taking it on a little more, he has that little burst to get some space then kick and thats a step above the blind kick.

13 minutes ago, Django said:

Tyson looks even better when he slams home those goals from outside 50. Just can't seem to get it together over a shorter distance.

He has been working on his short distance kicks, fewer howlers recently, but i do preffer to see him either kick long or hand it off. I think we all do.

[hoon1 43]

I would add cooney to the list of Brownlow winners that I don't see as elite, good player but not in the same elite bracket as Judd Ablett Goodes etc

[monoccular 17,360]

20 hours ago, Je Roos Salem said:

Yeah I was tossing up with Dawes, he's missed the mark for a while but I just considered the fact he got back in the team and looked alright for at least his first 2 back. .....

Surely that is the one thing he is consistent with....missing the mark.  If he took them regularly he could be up there B+ or A