Changes vs Essendon

[Ted Lasso 19,282]

19 hours ago, stuie said:

I hate these type of comments. Have you ever actually played footy? With a decent structure you don't spot a lead and then stop, have a think, weigh up if you think they'll mark it or not, ponder their form, maybe consider what Demonlanders post about their marking abilities... You follow the plan, you automatically reward the lead. How long do you think guys have to make decisions in AFL footy exactly?

 

Nice in theory but when a bloke is consistently dropping marks you lose confidence in them, that's only natural.

[stuie 7,374]

4 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

This is Melbourne we are talking about. There hasn't been consistent structure or cohesion to our play for a long time, so it wouldn't surprise me if players have been second guessing their team mates. 

Either way, you brought up Dawes and I mentioned it, I don't think he's been leading or directing the forward line well enough for over 2 years. If he gets himself fit then maybe he'll get a chance to prove me wrong. 

But aside from the midfield and half backs playing better I'd like to see Hogan, Watts, Vanders and the smalls take control of the forward line set ups and movement and not look for anyone else to give them direction. Hogan has a lot on his plate but he's a natural. Watts has always shown ability to get the ball to the right spot and is starting to find more of it leading up as well. Time for those 2 to take control as they did in the last quarter. 

I totally agree about the forward line going forward, I don't see Dawes as a permanent fixture there if things keep progressing as they are. With Hogan, Watts, Garlett and Petracca we have a really unique forward line that will be hard for oppositions to match up on, then add Kent, vB, Kennedy, Harmes etc running in the future is bright.

My point was I just disagree with you saying Dawes doesn't run or lead enough.

 

[Miracle 89]

17 minutes ago, stuie said:

I hate these type of comments. Have you ever actually played footy? With a decent structure you don't spot a lead and then stop, have a think, weigh up if you think they'll mark it or not, ponder their form, maybe consider what Demonlanders post about their marking abilities... You follow the plan, you automatically reward the lead. How long do you think guys have to make decisions in AFL footy exactly?

 

Players do not automatically reward the lead. Leads are ignored every game for various reasons. One reason is lack of confidence.

I have always been a Watts fan but one of the changes this year is that players are kicking to him. In the past they sometimes ignored his lead because they lacked confidence in him. This is just an example and not for general discuss on Jack.

Maybe you should ask yourself if you played footy and whether you honoured every lead.

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, Miracle said:

Players do not automatically reward the lead. Leads are ignored every game for various reasons. One reason is lack of confidence.

I have always been a Watts fan but one of the changes this year is that players are kicking to him. In the past they sometimes ignored his lead because they lacked confidence in him. This is just an example and not for general discuss on Jack.

Maybe you should ask yourself if you played footy and whether you honoured every lead.

I disagree with the assertion that players will weigh up whether they should kick it based on who they're kicking to when presented with a good lead.

Do you honestly think Roos (let alone any senior AFL coach) would allow that to happen?

 

[DeeSpencer 25,442]

5 minutes ago, P-man said:

Tyson tested 3.02 in the 20 metre sprint at the combine so he is no snail.

His kicking in match conditions seems to have declined in recent times but often it is a rushed kick out of congestion. Fundamentally I wouldn't say he is a poor kick. 

i really think there is a sense of panic in the OTT criticism of Tyson based on his less than stellar form last season appearing to flow into this one. We are one game into the season. Calls for him to be dropped are silly.

There's also a much smaller differential between how good he was in 2014 and how 'bad' he was in 2015 than most people realise even before you factor in the knee injury he carried.

Plus his nab challenge game against the Saints was very 2014 Tyson and based on their game against Port the Saints look like they have at least a reasonable midfield.

At least Casey have a game this weekend so Michie and Neal-Bullen can show what they've got as guys pushing for midfield spots. Dom can give his best 2nd up showing and we might then at least start to consider how he's going with a bit of a sample size. 

The last thing I'd be doing at this stage is taking Vince away from his new role at half back or chucking Vanders or Brayshaw in full time to the midfield mix when we need them forward to keep playing aggressive attacking footy.

 

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

2 minutes ago, stuie said:

I disagree with the assertion that players will weigh up whether they should kick it based on who they're kicking to when presented with a good lead.

Do you honestly think Roos (let alone any senior AFL coach) would allow that to happen?

 

I think its more the lack of confidence means it needs to be an outstanding lead. Say for example Hogan has grabed 6 marks in the first half and is leading up with someone hot on his tail you will kick it to him cos he has confidence and you're confident he can take it even with the pressure but if he has dropped 5 marks then suddenly you might hesitate. 

[P-man 13,366]

7 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Sorry i should have been clearer i also don't doubt his running speed but its his thinking speed, you can see each thought in his head slowly tick over where as you look at a viney who just gets and goes theres no delay. 

And I agree he shouldnt be dropped but he needs to improve or he might vulnerable in 8-10 weeks time if he is still struggling. Not so much to be "dropped" more just to be overtaken in value by others 

Fair enough. I would stand by my original observation that there is a panicked reaction (not yours necessarily but in the main) on the back of poor form last season. In 2014, the majority on here were marvelling at his decision making under pressure and in heavy traffic.

[nutbean 8,838]

4 minutes ago, Miracle said:

Players do not automatically reward the lead. Leads are ignored every game for various reasons. One reason is lack of confidence.

I have always been a Watts fan but one of the changes this year is that players are kicking to him. In the past they sometimes ignored his lead because they lacked confidence in him. This is just an example and not for general discuss on Jack.

 

I actually think the opposite  - but I agree it is confidence - I don't think that leads are ignored because of lack of confidence in who they are kicking to - I think players on our team have often ignored leads as the player kicking is not confident enough that he will make the pass. 

The difference for me when I watched the really good team is they have the utmost confidence in their ability to hit their team mate and pull the trigger first time. I think this is changing though - some of the turnovers or spoils are occuring because we are pulling the trigger on passes that would not have been attempted last year and the year before.

[DemonLad5 1,642]

IN - Dunn , Brayshaw

OUT - O.Mcdonald, Pederson

[Deecisive 1,709]

We should not be looking at the dropping of a player as being the end of the world. We are putting one player down to try to improve while we give another one or two a chance to excel at senior level. For the first time in a long, long time Melbourne has talented players sitting in the wings waiting to get a game. This is something to be used to give players a rest, to give players a chance to go down to casey to try different things, or just find a bit more of the ball.  I just pray that we continue to have dilemmas every selection night like we have now, as opposed to the dropping one out of form player and replacing him with another.

I would like to see Dunn back because he gives us options especially in relation to daniher who can mark and kick well enough to hurt us on the score board.  I would also like to see Angus and Lumumba in. 

[binman 42,620]

7 minutes ago, Miracle said:

I have always been a Watts fan but one of the changes this year is that players are kicking to him. In the past they sometimes ignored his lead because they lacked confidence in him. This is just an example and not for general discuss on Jack.

 

I agree. It is definitely something that has changed this year. Players seemingly have more confidence in him and are looking for him more. I think that it is virtuous cycle as this confidence helps Jack.

[stuie 7,374]

3 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

I think its more the lack of confidence means it needs to be an outstanding lead. Say for example Hogan has grabed 6 marks in the first half and is leading up with someone hot on his tail you will kick it to him cos he has confidence and you're confident he can take it even with the pressure but if he has dropped 5 marks then suddenly you might hesitate. 

If you consistently ignore decent leads you get dropped, especially at AFL level.

 

[nutbean 8,838]

2 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

I think its more the lack of confidence means it needs to be an outstanding lead. Say for example Hogan has grabed 6 marks in the first half and is leading up with someone hot on his tail you will kick it to him cos he has confidence and you're confident he can take it even with the pressure but if he has dropped 5 marks then suddenly you might hesitate. 

What do you think goes through a players mind ?

A) I am not going to honor a really good lead as I am worried the player leading  is going to spill the mark; or

b) Is the players leading a substantial enough distance from opponents for me to effect a good pass or is the degree of difficulty to high for me to attempt the pass -  am I going to be able hit him on the lead ?

[daisycutter 29,600]

1 hour ago, nutbean said:

yes..it's called the MCC smokers stand old chap ( sorry ...couldn't resist)

too many essendrug mcc members

[Webber 10,454]

24 minutes ago, P-man said:

Tyson tested 3.02 in the 20 metre sprint at the combine so he is no snail.

His kicking in match conditions seems to have declined in recent times but often it is a rushed kick out of congestion. Fundamentally I wouldn't say he is a poor kick. 

i really think there is a sense of panic in the OTT criticism of Tyson based on his less than stellar form last season appearing to flow into this one. We are one game into the season. Calls for him to be dropped are silly.

Easy on with the common sense, P-man. Calling the frenzied reactions to Demonland's newest whipping boy silly is a bit ..... silly. We all know he's slow, disinterested, a rubbish kick, gets caught more than anyone in the AFL, lazy, and probably hurts small animals, so dropping him just seems obvious. 

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

1 minute ago, nutbean said:

What do you think goes through a players mind ?

A) I am not going to honor a really good lead as I am worried the player leading  is going to spill the mark; or

b) Is the players leading a substantial enough distance from opponents for me to effect a good pass or is the degree of difficulty to high for me to attempt the pass -  am I going to be able hit him on the lead ?

Im not saying my reasoning is how it should be but thats what it seems like when I watch them ignore leads. I think "I dont want to be the one who turns it over" is what goes though most of our players minds. The giants game looked better as did the NAB but in the last few years there have been countless ignored leads based on confidence in themself or their teammate.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

11 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

I think its more the lack of confidence means it needs to be an outstanding lead. Say for example Hogan has grabed 6 marks in the first half and is leading up with someone hot on his tail you will kick it to him cos he has confidence and you're confident he can take it even with the pressure but if he has dropped 5 marks then suddenly you might hesitate. 

Agreed

It is not even necessarily a conscious, but rather a subconscious thought process

[Deecisive 1,709]

We have been playing more attacking football through the NAB challenge and even against the GWS, unfortunately we still have a lot of players who do not have the instinct to dish the ball off immediately or to the first lead.  quite often you will see a player take a mark and immediately players down field offer leads, which are not honoured, by the time the kicker gets ready to dispose of the ball all leads are covered or gone, so they kick either long down the line or trying going across or back.  Grimes, Tom Mac, Garlett, Kent all seem to lack that spontaneity to push the ball on quickly.

[P-man 13,366]

3 minutes ago, Webber said:

Easy on with the common sense, P-man. Calling the frenzied reactions to Demonland's newest whipping boy silly is a bit ..... silly. We all know he's slow, disinterested, a rubbish kick, gets caught more than anyone in the AFL, lazy, and probably hurts small animals, so dropping him just seems obvious. 

I didn't know about the small animals. Hm.

i also just remembered he was once a finalist in the Cleo Bachelor of the Year. Bloody primma donna.

Okay, he's gone.

[daisycutter 29,600]

anything been said about tmac's shoulder injury?

[H_T 3,043]

I'm prepared to give Tyson another go this week vs Essendon. Yes his disposal let him down on the weekend a few times and we came undone as a result with GWS pouncing. He can be hot and cold at times, but I'm prepared to give him another shot this week, instead of Casey. I'd imagine Dunn would come in for McDonald (inj), if Brayshaw is ready to go he may be another inclusion. Frost could be on thin ice (pun intended).

[Deeoldfart 8,005]

I reckon the only change for this week centres around OMac. This weeks' injury update indicates that he is a 'test' so probably 50/50.  This means that 'no change' is a possibility.  However, IMO OMac still has some learning to do and some confidence to build before he is close to 'AFL ready', so I reckon the return of Dunn is most likely.  His experience and disposal will add value to the team we fielded against GWS. 

Roos' comment about the size of the Essendon forward line is interesting.  Maybe Lumumba in and Garland to CHB, or Brayshaw in and Pedersen to CHB.

Intriguing, but I'll stick with Dunn for OMac.

[rjay 24,852]

1 hour ago, stuie said:

Well you've seen very different things to me, and I stand roughly in the same spot.

Say what you want about his marking and scoring output, but I've never heard anyone else other than you claim he just stands around calling for it.

 

I said similar in an earlier post 'stuie'...he often calls for it over the back. Maybe not just standing there but definitely not pushing up to the player with the ball, many times you see him calling for an unrealistic kick over the back.

[dee-luded 2,959]

23 hours ago, tappysquads said:

Just watched the tv coverage for the first time as I was there Saturday. Matt Jones did nothing wrong all game, and was creative when he had it. He stays

Pedo was working hard and leading to come good spots, couple big hits and acceptable when in the ruck. Stays

Harmes did some good things, great pressure, he should stay

Omac out for Dunny

So who you push out for Brayshaw I would not have a clue but he has to come in, and I would really like H to come in aswell. Maybe frost and Kent/harmes but structurally that doesn't work. What a great problem to have for the first time in years!

PS- Watts did things he has never done for Melbourne before. Explosive and evasive through traffic! Vanders is going to be  a superstar, does so much right!

I would give Angus a week with Casey,  probably his first? game with them?   He is a tad underdone & needs match work.  one more week IMO.

We need to  'Inject'  some speed,  & to cover off back flank/wing.. I think Lamumba comes back in this match,  for OMac.   Lamumba will give us some dash thru the mid areas.

Angus to return for the North game Rnd 3.  If we had Sub's,  he could have come in as a Sub.

Dunny can wait another week as well,  unless there are 2 players to miss.

[dee-luded 2,959]

4 hours ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Since he is such a hot topic at the minute, here is my 2 cents about Tyson:

He has 2 major problems, he is slow and he is a terrible kick.
Now the latter is the lesser of the problems, for a midfielder at least, we can probably deal with 60% efficiency by foot if he can keep his hands up around 80-85%. Judd and Swan are both brownlow medal proof that you dont have to be a glorious kick to be a star midfielder as long as you can get your hands on the footy and give it to someone who is. we'll all love tyson forever if he gets the ball in and under and hands it out to le like of salem running past who has the skill to hit someone lace out.

The bigger problem I see is he is slow moving the ball on, he gets caught holding the ball more than any other player in the competition, and this is harder to fix. People calling for him to be dropped but I feel he will dominate in the VFL simply due to the extra time he has. IMO we have to persist with him at AFL level and he has to get better at moving the ball on quicker. Going down a level and playing exactly the same might help his confidence but wont change the fact he will continue to get caught at the top level. I'm open to sugestions as to how the VFL could improve this skill but right now i just cant see it helping  

Play him at Casey in the forward pocket or flank, & rotate thru midfield, not to the bench, building his endurance.   Tell him to work on his outside game & to kick lots of goals.  And to feed the ball linking to the runner coming past.  

Hopefully he'll end up being tagged when forward,  forcing him to get mentally faster ?

 

If he's that slow he'll have to learn to get quicker in mind,  then maybe do the same at AFL with him, during rotations?  If we can get his endurance up maybe he could end up a plough Wallace type.