Ahhhhh didn't take you long to go to the insults hey... About as quality a post as your previous one, but at least your previous one vaguely attempted to talk footy

Ahhhh the irony.

B: Jetta Dunn Garland
HB: Melksham McDonald Lumumba
C: Salem Vince Tyson
HF: V/berg Pedo Brayshaw
FF: Garlett Hogan Watts

R: Gawn Jones Viney

Int: Kent, Pick 3, Petracca, Frost

On paper and in the traditional form this is how I'd like to see us lining up.

I figure our best mids are around the pill in the centre, on the flanks and on the wings and will all rotate through at different stages.

Our best genuine stoppers are Dunn, Garland & Jetta which I think most agree on and have them on the last line. Frost may go back if Garland / Dunn struggle to contain someone which could see them swing forward.

I'd like to see Watts just given a roll behind Jesse up forward and just become a real greedy bastard and try kick bulk amounts of goals. Just become that Gunston like forward who does bugger all but lead, lead and lead. Jeffy of course will be buzzing around being the genuine crumber that he is.

As for the Dawes vs Pedo argument, from my watching last year I thought Pedo looked more dangerous than Dawes and I liked his aggression more at the opponents. He played a lot more hungrier than Dawes imo and looked like he was doing everything to get out there and prove himself. I think he deserves the first opportunity based on this.

Hoping for Dawes, Harmes, Trenners, Bugg, Grimes etc to make me look like a moron and own a best 22 spot next season.

I reckon if fit Trengove slots back in somewhere.

I really hope so....I love Jack.

At his best, he was such a damaging player.

In that Geelong game - Dawes provided us with structure.

Which is the base requisite for a tall fwd.

Again, meaningless talk in October.

good to see stuie is in fine form today

must have recovered from that nasty groin injury

I reckon if fit Trengove slots back in somewhere.

if fit he walks into the starting 18. Without question. The bloke is a gun.

But the reality right now is that it is a very big iif

good to see stuie is in fine form today

must have recovered from that nasty groin injury

by that nasty groun injury, do you mean an injury to a nasty groin, or a nasty injury to a groin? Could be either. :-)

Ahhhhh didn't take you long to go to the insults hey... About as quality a post as your previous one, but at least your previous one vaguely attempted to talk footy

Says the king of insults, name calling and belittling on Demonland

Says the king of insults, name calling and belittling on Demonland

Correct he is a troll and a disgrace. He continually belittles other posters then whines when he gets a bit back.

In that Geelong game - Dawes provided us with structure.

Which is the base requisite for a tall fwd.

Again, meaningless talk in October.

But that game was the perfect example of why MARKING tall options are so important. Gawn and Spencer ran amok - took contested marks, we got our confidence up, hit the scoreboard and we collectively looked a million dollars.

Stuie, you are right it is hard to argue purely statistically that Dawes restricts our scoring, though there is a indicative correlation and he doesn't kick goals himself. It's mainly that I just notice time and again that his link in the chain is at best a neutral result. The typical Dawes scene is the ball slaps his hands and spills to ground, and then he provides a commendable 'second effort'. Coaches love endeavor, and he certainly embodies that, but scoring goals requires more than that, it requires a decisive skill on display which breaks through the best strategies of the defense. Dawes doesn't possess those skills to a high enough standard. We need to look elsewhere for our CHF.

Such a shame that Watts doesn't seem cut out to play the role. He is taller than Jesse at 196cm, getting stronger and really has all the attributes except that 'effort' which Dawes has in spades. Pedo is a good mark, good kick and good link-man. He fulfills the role for now but we would love a monster to be drafted in (Weed) or for King to come on.

Looking at the three new recruits in Bugg, Kennedy and Melksham, they are all hard tackling players who can hit up targets inside 50 with smart passing. Melksham has another arrow to his quiver in his long kicking is quite impressive.

If they are an indication of the game style we're looking to grow next year, then Hogan, Watts and Garlett are going to reap havoc, as each is smart and able to create space in their own way.

Judging by the fact Pedo has been dropped for Dawes but not vice versa, I would say Roos doesn't agree with you there.

I know a few others are stuck in the 90s, but not all forwards are there to actually kick the goals these days. You'd have to ask Roos what Dawes exact role is, but my opinion is his job is as a high half forward/wing link up forward who is meant to apply pressure, a big presence, and create space for our scoring forwards in Hogan and Garlett to work. It's not ideal, and I'm not saying it's our future or it's how it should be, but it's the reality of our list and how Roos is working with it.

Team----------KPF1 [GOALS]--KPF2 [GOALS]

1. Fremantle - Pavlich [40] Mayne [28]

2. Hawthorn - Roughead [50] Gunston [57]

3. West Coast - Kennedy [80] Darling [26]

4. Sydney - Franklin [47] Tippett [44]

5. Richmond - Riewoldt [54] Vickery [31]

6. Bulldogs - Stringer [56] Dickson [50]

7. Adelaide - Walker [59] Jenkins [46]

8. North Melbourne - Petrie [42] Waite [42]

Melbourne - Hogan [44] Dawes [11]** Dawes only played 14 games, but that's still an average of 0.8/game

I'm not sure where you get the idea that it's not the FF and CHF's jobs to kick goals, but you can see that every top 8 team's CHF and FF both averaged over one goal a game in 2015, while a great deal of them averaged more than two/game. There are forwards that are played in defensive roles, but it's the CHF and FF's role is to hit the scoreboard, and the stats of the top 8 show that. We're not going to be a finals team with Dawes playing as a KPF unless he can start to do some damage to the scoreboard.

At this stage we're lacking a second decent KPF, but I have Pedersen ahead of him based on his hands (which I already know your thoughts on, so don't bother repeating them as it's clear we disagree). I also think that moving Dunn to the forward line and Frost to the backline could work.

The only way that Dawes makes my best 22 is through injuries to two of Hogan, Pedersen, Frost, Dunn, Garland, McDonald.

Team----------KPF1 [GOALS]--KPF2 [GOALS]

1. Fremantle - Pavlich [40] Mayne [28]

2. Hawthorn - Roughead [50] Gunston [57]

3. West Coast - Kennedy [80] Darling [26]

4. Sydney - Franklin [47] Tippett [44]

5. Richmond - Riewoldt [54] Vickery [31]

6. Bulldogs - Stringer [56] Dickson [50]

7. Adelaide - Walker [59] Jenkins [46]

8. North Melbourne - Petrie [42] Waite [42]

Melbourne - Hogan [44] Dawes [11]** Dawes only played 14 games, but that's still an average of 0.8/game

I'm not sure where you get the idea that it's not the FF and CHF's jobs to kick goals, but you can see that every top 8 team's CHF and FF both averaged over one goal a game in 2015, while a great deal of them averaged more than two/game. There are forwards that are played in defensive roles, but it's the CHF and FF's role is to hit the scoreboard, and the stats of the top 8 show that. We're not going to be a finals team with Dawes playing as a KPF unless he can start to do some damage to the scoreboard.

At this stage we're lacking a second decent KPF, but I have Pedersen ahead of him based on his hands (which I already know your thoughts on, so don't bother repeating them as it's clear we disagree). I also think that moving Dunn to the forward line and Frost to the backline could work.

The only way that Dawes makes my best 22 is through injuries to two of Hogan, Pedersen, Frost, Dunn, Garland, McDonald.

A very Good analysis GTG! I have been completely underwhelmed by Dawes. Runs to wrong spaces, gets in the way, can't mark and doesn't kick goals. He must kick 1-2 per game if we are any chance at winning. The number of times he fluffed opportunities last year was appalling. And please tell me why we have two forwards running up the field at the same time. Very poor structure in my opinion>

Team----------KPF1 [GOALS]--KPF2 [GOALS]

1. Fremantle - Pavlich [40] Mayne [28]

2. Hawthorn - Roughead [50] Gunston [57]

3. West Coast - Kennedy [80] Darling [26]

4. Sydney - Franklin [47] Tippett [44]

5. Richmond - Riewoldt [54] Vickery [31]

6. Bulldogs - Stringer [56] Dickson [50]

7. Adelaide - Walker [59] Jenkins [46]

8. North Melbourne - Petrie [42] Waite [42]

Melbourne - Hogan [44] Dawes [11]** Dawes only played 14 games, but that's still an average of 0.8/game

I'm not sure where you get the idea that it's not the FF and CHF's jobs to kick goals, but you can see that every top 8 team's CHF and FF both averaged over one goal a game in 2015, while a great deal of them averaged more than two/game. There are forwards that are played in defensive roles, but it's the CHF and FF's role is to hit the scoreboard, and the stats of the top 8 show that. We're not going to be a finals team with Dawes playing as a KPF unless he can start to do some damage to the scoreboard.

At this stage we're lacking a second decent KPF, but I have Pedersen ahead of him based on his hands (which I already know your thoughts on, so don't bother repeating them as it's clear we disagree). I also think that moving Dunn to the forward line and Frost to the backline could work.

The only way that Dawes makes my best 22 is through injuries to two of Hogan, Pedersen, Frost, Dunn, Garland, McDonald.

Happy to put $50 on it right now that barring injuries Dawes will be picked before Pedersen for round 1.

Also, you've listed 2 forward for each team. 6 people play in the forward line and I said not all forwards are there to just kick goals, so don't try and change what I said or what the point is to suit the stats you want to wheel out.

I think the other point you've missed is I'm not saying Dawes has been great, I'm just saying he's better than Pedersen. So not sure again why you're comparing Dawes to the rest of the comp. How many goals did Pedo kick this year? I'm going to assume at least 30 seeing that's apparently what is required of a second forward...

For what it's worth, we've definitely found some middle ground about your thoughts on Frost and Dunn. All for trying that out.

Melbourne - Hogan [44] Dawes [11]** Dawes only played 14 games, but that's still an average of 0.8/game

I noticed you didn't put Pedersen's goal average up too for some reason.... He averaged 0.9 per game.

Happy to put $50 on it right now that barring injuries Dawes will be picked before Pedersen for round 1.

Also, you've listed 2 forward for each team. 6 people play in the forward line and I said not all forwards are there to just kick goals, so don't try and change what I said or what the point is to suit the stats you want to wheel out.

I think the other point you've missed is I'm not saying Dawes has been great, I'm just saying he's better than Pedersen. So not sure again why you're comparing Dawes to the rest of the comp. How many goals did Pedo kick this year? I'm going to assume at least 30 seeing that's apparently what is required of a second forward...

For what it's worth, we've definitely found some middle ground about your thoughts on Frost and Dunn. All for trying that out.

I listed the two main KPFs for each top 8 team. Dawes was one of ours in 2015. Successful teams have KPFs that kick lots of goals. Dawes doesn't kick enough goals. You said it wasn't his role to kick goals.

I noticed you didn't put Pedersen's goal average up too for some reason.... He averaged 0.9 per game.

Same reason as above. Pedersen was not one of our two KPFs in 2015. He averaged more goals and marks than Dawes though. He also did this without ever playing as the primary target in the forward line.

Also for the record, in the two games that Dawes played as our primary KPF, he kicked a total of 0 goals and averaged 7.5 disposals and 2 marks.

I'm not going to bet that Dawes won't be in our round one lineup, but he wouldn't be in MY round one lineup. I can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that he won't be a KPF in our next finals squad, which is something that we have publicly stated we're aiming for in 2016. So, hopefully, Dunn or Frost seize an opportunity to play as a KPF in 2016, they can kick some goals, and we'll both be happy.

I listed the two main KPFs for each top 8 team. Dawes was one of ours in 2015. Successful teams have KPFs that kick lots of goals. Dawes doesn't kick enough goals. You said it wasn't his role to kick goals.

Same reason as above. Pedersen was not one of our two KPFs in 2015. He averaged more goals and marks than Dawes though. He also did this without ever playing as the primary target in the forward line.

Also for the record, in the two games that Dawes played as our primary KPF, he kicked a total of 0 goals and averaged 7.5 disposals and 2 marks.

I'm not going to bet that Dawes won't be in our round one lineup, but he wouldn't be in MY round one lineup. I can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that he won't be a KPF in our next finals squad, which is something that we have publicly stated we're aiming for in 2016. So, hopefully, Dunn or Frost seize an opportunity to play as a KPF in 2016, they can kick some goals, and we'll both be happy.

6 forwards play in a team. You're still stuck in the 90s with this "me forward, me kick goals" mentality. Ask Roosy about roles.

Also, stats... Seriously, you just keep backing back to stats... Ugh...

Ok, so Pedo wasn't the "primary target" but Dawes was? Heard of a kid called Hogan? Or another guy called Garlett?

Yep, you're not willing to bet because our coach, our premiership winning coach, is a certainty to pick Dawes ahead of Pedo, maybe that should tell you something?

As for the "next finals squad" argument, I don't deal in what ifs and ridiculously grey areas like that. Bernie Vince might not be in our next finals squad given his age, should we dump him now too? Or are these guys part of the journey that will lead to us being a side that makes finals? Roosy likely won't be our next finals coach, get rid of him too?

I guess let's just shake hands and agree the Dunn/Frost concept could really work. I'm a big fan of Frosty, and think a big man who has pace and a good tank will be worth his weight in gold with the new sub/interchange rules.

6 forwards play in a team. You're still stuck in the 90s with this "me forward, me kick goals" mentality. Ask Roosy about roles.

Above I've shown that KPFs in successful teams kick goals. Dawes is a KPF for us, and if we're going to be successful he needs to start kicking goals. He may perform other parts of his role well, but this is a crucial part of being a KPF.

Also, stats... Seriously, you just keep backing back to stats... Ugh...

I'm not allowed to use stats to back up my argument that Dawes doesn't kick enough goals? How else can I do that?

Ok, so Pedo wasn't the "primary target" but Dawes was? Heard of a kid called Hogan? Or another guy called Garlett?

Re-read my post. Dawes was a primary target twice in 2015 (Hogan missed matches against Geelong and Hawthorn) and kicked zero goals and took four marks total. Garlett is not a main target. Good teams have two strong KPFs as well as at least one player like Garlett (LeCras, Walters, Rioli, Breust, Betts, etc).

Yep, you're not willing to bet because our coach, our premiership winning coach, is a certainty to pick Dawes ahead of Pedo, maybe that should tell you something?

I agree that he is likely to get selected in round one. I've already said this. He just wouldn't be in MY round one team as I do not rate him at all. Clearly Roos sees something in him, but I really struggle to see what it is.

As for the "next finals squad" argument, I don't deal in what ifs and ridiculously grey areas like that. Bernie Vince might not be in our next finals squad given his age, should we dump him now too? Or are these guys part of the journey that will lead to us being a side that makes finals? Roosy likely won't be our next finals coach, get rid of him too?

By this I meant that we are aiming for finals in 2016, and if we are going to achieve that goal, we'll either need a second KPF to emerge and kick goals for us, or Dawes will need to start kicking goals more regularly. If this doesn't happen, we won't make the finals in 2016. I'll give you your $50 bet on that.

I guess let's just shake hands and agree the Dunn/Frost concept could really work. I'm a big fan of Frosty, and think a big man who has pace and a good tank will be worth his weight in gold with the new sub/interchange rules.

Agree wholeheartedly. Hopefully his toe can regenerate in time for the preseason, as I really liked what I saw early in 2015.

I love doing these, here we go

FB: Jetta Dunn Garland
HB: Melksham MacDonald Salem
C: Watts Tyson Brayshaw
HF: Petracca Pederson Vandenberg
FF: Garlett Hogan Kent
RR: Gawn Jones Vince
INT: Viney Trengove Lumumba Harmes

Depth: Pick 3 (Hopefully Parish), Pick 7 (Hopefully Curnow), Neal-Bullen, Frost, Bugg, Kennedy, Grimes, Stretch, Dawes

Positives for mine are that this is becoming increasingly hard to do especially considering the fact that I can see (although maybe its real wishful thinking) Trengove getting back to becoming a really solid player rivalling our best mids). I can also see Salem improving into one of our best players and Tyson competing with Viney in becoming our number one mid. Frost is a real athlete and could push Lumumba out which makes for a really exciting young list.

Despite the fact that it looks like we won't be so reliant on our veteran mids, I reckon if big Maxy Gawn or Jesse "The Kid" Hogan go down we are royally gone. I really don't rate Spencer around the ground and Dawes competes and seems like a good bloke to have around the club but the guy couldn't catch a cold. So here's to hoping we can get a ready made tall this draft. Anyone know of any good ruckman in the rookie draft or worth a sneaky late pick?

6 forwards play in a team. You're still stuck in the 90s with this "me forward, me kick goals" mentality. Ask Roosy about roles.

Above I've shown that KPFs in successful teams kick goals. Dawes is a KPF for us, and if we're going to be successful he needs to start kicking goals. He may perform other parts of his role well, but this is a crucial part of being a KPF.

Also, stats... Seriously, you just keep backing back to stats... Ugh...

I'm not allowed to use stats to back up my argument that Dawes doesn't kick enough goals? How else can I do that?

Ok, so Pedo wasn't the "primary target" but Dawes was? Heard of a kid called Hogan? Or another guy called Garlett?

Re-read my post. Dawes was a primary target twice in 2015 (Hogan missed matches against Geelong and Hawthorn) and kicked zero goals and took four marks total. Garlett is not a main target. Good teams have two strong KPFs as well as at least one player like Garlett (LeCras, Walters, Rioli, Breust, Betts, etc).

Yep, you're not willing to bet because our coach, our premiership winning coach, is a certainty to pick Dawes ahead of Pedo, maybe that should tell you something?

I agree that he is likely to get selected in round one. I've already said this. He just wouldn't be in MY round one team as I do not rate him at all. Clearly Roos sees something in him, but I really struggle to see what it is.

As for the "next finals squad" argument, I don't deal in what ifs and ridiculously grey areas like that. Bernie Vince might not be in our next finals squad given his age, should we dump him now too? Or are these guys part of the journey that will lead to us being a side that makes finals? Roosy likely won't be our next finals coach, get rid of him too?

By this I meant that we are aiming for finals in 2016, and if we are going to achieve that goal, we'll either need a second KPF to emerge and kick goals for us, or Dawes will need to start kicking goals more regularly. If this doesn't happen, we won't make the finals in 2016. I'll give you your $50 bet on that.

I guess let's just shake hands and agree the Dunn/Frost concept could really work. I'm a big fan of Frosty, and think a big man who has pace and a good tank will be worth his weight in gold with the new sub/interchange rules.

Agree wholeheartedly. Hopefully his toe can regenerate in time for the preseason, as I really liked what I saw early in 2015.

It's funny sometimes footy, we're not going to agree and we can both find reasons for our arguments.

Appreciate the thought and work you put into your posts even if we're not of the same mind. Will be interesting to see what happens with Dunn next year, feel like our key back stocks are better than key forward stocks right now, but he's played his best and most consistent footy in the backline.

A very Good analysis GTG! I have been completely underwhelmed by Dawes. Runs to wrong spaces, gets in the way, can't mark and doesn't kick goals. He must kick 1-2 per game if we are any chance at winning. The number of times he fluffed opportunities last year was appalling. And please tell me why we have two forwards running up the field at the same time. Very poor structure in my opinion>

Well that's just not true.

He frustrates because he gets into good spots and doesn't execute - he attempts mark like a bloke low on confidence in his marking; very stiff and with tension in the arms and with out great extension of the arms into the mark.

And he does that quite a bit. His average score involvements are still (just) higher than Pedersen's and yet some talk like one is far more 'involved' than the other.

As for 'getting in the way' - that is what tall fwds are meant to do - unless you mean 'getting in Hogan's way' and I am with you on that sentiment. However, Hogan has stated on multiple occasions that he loves playing with Dawes in that team. Gawn gets in Hogan's way (Source: See Carlton game), but Dawes does not.

6 forwards play in a team. You're still stuck in the 90s with this "me forward, me kick goals" mentality. Ask Roosy about roles.

Also, stats... Seriously, you just keep backing back to stats... Ugh...

Ok, so Pedo wasn't the "primary target" but Dawes was? Heard of a kid called Hogan? Or another guy called Garlett?

Yep, you're not willing to bet because our coach, our premiership winning coach, is a certainty to pick Dawes ahead of Pedo, maybe that should tell you something?

As for the "next finals squad" argument, I don't deal in what ifs and ridiculously grey areas like that. Bernie Vince might not be in our next finals squad given his age, should we dump him now too? Or are these guys part of the journey that will lead to us being a side that makes finals? Roosy likely won't be our next finals coach, get rid of him too?

I guess let's just shake hands and agree the Dunn/Frost concept could really work. I'm a big fan of Frosty, and think a big man who has pace and a good tank will be worth his weight in gold with the new sub/interchange rules.

Stuie, he is not arguing that every forward is there to kick goals and wheeling out spurious stats. He is suggesting that KEY forwards in every top eight team happen to kick plenty of goals. That would suggest that to become a top eight team we need to find a second forward who can "play a role" that also includes scoring.

Garlett is a separate point. Most of the good teams also have a good small forward. In fact, EVERY finalist had at least 3 players kick at least 25 goals for the season and half of them (including three of the top four teams) had five players. By my reckoning, that makes goal kicking at least part of the role of most forward line players (and all KPFs)... so maybe we are heading back to the 90s after all?

I seem do disagree with most on this chat. Heres mine..

B : Jetta, Dunn , Garland

HB: Melksham, T.McDonald, Salem

C : Stretch, Vince, Tyson

HF : Harmes, Frost, Vandenberg

FF : Garlett, Hogan, Kent

FOLL : Gawn, Jones, Viney

INTERCHANGE : Bugg (HB,MID), Petracca (HF,MID), Watts (HF,MID) , Brayshaw (HF, MID)

EMERGENCY : Lumumba, Kennedy,ANB

Depth - BaCK - O.mac. Terlich, White, Grimes

Mid - Michie, Newton, M. jones, Trengove,

Fwd - JKH, Dawes (Probably emergancy), Pedo, King (also ruck), Hunt

Ruck - Spencer

Really wanted to put Lumumba, Kennedy and ANB in the side, but I just don't see how they fit in. NAB challenge form will decide alot.

I noticed you didn't put Pedersen's goal average up too for some reason.... He averaged 0.9 per game.

Except Pedersen does more around the ground than Dawes ever has/will.