WELCOME TO THE MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB – JAKE MELKSHAM

[deejammin' 2,374]

I can imagine it. But ultimately it's the same argument as the Nuremberg trials, doing something you think is probably wrong but accepting it and doing it because those more senior tell you to is actually not an excuse.

I don't doubt the younger players were more naive, or heavily influenced by those senior players, but ultimately when it comes to drugs in sport if you take the substance and don't report it you have no leg to stand on. A lot of Essendon players could have been saved a lot of time and money if just one player had been brave enough to report. Some players clearly said no, look at Zaharakis.

 

(Sorry Ted tried to quote you and got my own)

Edited September 19, 2016 by deejammin'

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

31 minutes ago, Choke said:

I reckon the players have gotten off very lightly, the media could have gone very hard but didn't.

I reckon there was a very early impulse to "head em off at the pass", which largely succeeded in setting the agenda. A known EFC supporter in charge of the Herald Sun, a number of EFC supporting individuals in various media, certain red faced buffoons with a voice, all promoting that the sports scientist went rogue, the players were duped, etc, which mostly stuck.

One prominent individual who is an EFC supporter and somehow counts as a journo, ended up on the payroll of the Essendon lawyers, advising them! I wonder if the "advice" was actually in the other direction.

Not to mention media accreditations that can be renewed or annulled at the whim of the emperor.

[deejammin' 2,374]

11 minutes ago, Ted Fidge said:

I don't excuse them, they are guilty. As a group, they knew there was monkey business of some kind, and decided to cover it up.

Just trying to explain the dilemma of a new player trying to reconcile his ASADA lectures with what Jobe & co were doing. (In this case Jobe & co won out, but it's easy to imagine the cognitive dissonance of trying to straighten it out in your head.)

I also think they are guilty clearly. And I understand that the younger players faced a tougher circumstance than players like Jobe. But the treatment of this issue in the media and by some on this forum, being so desperate to excuse the players at every turn, never admitting to any of the facts of the case, has been truly disgusting.

Its interesting to note the difference in the way our media has treated the Essendon players who couldn't come forward for fear of senior players and club champions versus Russian athletes whose families are threatened by a dangerous regime. Those poor poor Essendon players.

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

2 minutes ago, deejammin' said:

Its interesting to note the difference in the way our media has treated the Essendon players who couldn't come forward for fear of senior players and club champions versus Russian athletes whose families are threatened by a dangerous regime. Those poor poor Essendon players.

If it achieved nothing else, the saga exposed our national hypocrisy when it comes to drugs in sport.

The Russian athletes should have changed their nationalities to Aussie, that would have saved their bacon. The whole world knows Aussies don't cheat. (Don't they?????)

[Satyriconhome 10,880]

4 hours ago, deejammin' said:

But the treatment of this issue in the media and by some on this forum, being so desperate to excuse the players at every turn, never admitting to any of the facts of the case, has been truly disgusting.

So what you are saying is that because some don't agree with your opinion, they are disgusting.

I think the players were stupid and naive

But I am yet to be convinced that the substances they were injected with 'enhanced' their performance during the season

So I'll disgust away

I think what the last few pages have shown is that Demonland is capable of robust discussion without resorting to name calling or petty childishness (apart from a couple) , which for me is refreshing

Edited September 19, 2016 by Satyriconhome

[deejammin' 2,374]

Saty I think it's disgusting that the whole thing has been reported and discussed in such a biased way that the whole issue has been distorted and an obvious attempt to cheat has been treated with sympathy rather than the objective view it deserved.

I don't think or mean that anyone is disgusting, sorry if I offended or upset anyone and I'm sorry my words could be interpreted that way mate. I would have been better served by saying "distressing".

Edited September 19, 2016 by deejammin'

[Satyriconhome 10,880]

6 minutes ago, deejammin' said:

Saty I think it's disgusting that the whole thing has been reported and discussed in such a biased way that the whole issue has been distorted and an obvious attempt to cheat has been treated with sympathy rather than the objective view it deserved.

I don't think or mean that anyone is disgusting, sorry if I offended or upset anyone and I'm sorry my words could be interpreted that way mate. 

But the reason the above is occurring is because people have differing opinions, nobody is right, although they may think they are, as nobody knows the whole story

I have a very jaundiced view of both sporting organisations and the drugs in sport agencies, there are always too many personal agendas at play

 

[deejammin' 2,374]

24 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

But the reason the above is occurring is because people have differing opinions, nobody is right, although they may think they are, as nobody knows the whole story

I have a very jaundiced view of both sporting organisations and the drugs in sport agencies, there are always too many personal agendas at play

 

Happy to have different views mate. I tend to think CAS has more integrity than Essendon and the AFL and nothing I have read, heard or seen makes me think Essendon are anything but guilty. 

Im a diehard Melbourne man however and now he's here I'll be barracking hard for Melksham as I do all our players.

[Mt. Dee-Maaan 608]

coming from someone who was quite disappointed at the recruitment of melksham, i was pleasantly surprised, after oberving his demeanour and skills at a few of the 2015 training sessions late last year (prior to his ban). in particular, i was really impressed with his crispness, speed and excitement during drills. fingers crossed his signing results in a big win for the dees. i also hope he keeps his attitude in check and matures into a likeable guy.

[sue 9,195]

14 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

So what you are saying is that because some don't agree with your opinion, they are disgusting.

I think the players were stupid and naive

But I am yet to be convinced that the substances they were injected with 'enhanced' their performance during the season

So I'll disgust away

I think what the last few pages have shown is that Demonland is capable of robust discussion without resorting to name calling or petty childishness (apart from a couple) , which for me is refreshing

Why on earth do you keep repeating the sentence bolded above?  It is irrelevant to the discussion whether the drugs they took worked or failed to have the desired effect.   It doesn't make the behaviour of the players or the club any better or worse that the club's cheating plans may not have worked (as judged by you or anyone).  So why do you keep saying it? It must indicate something about your thinking on this issue, but I can't see what it is. 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 17,016]

37 minutes ago, sue said:

Why on earth do you keep repeating the sentence bolded above?  It is irrelevant to the discussion whether the drugs they took worked or failed to have the desired effect.   It doesn't make the behaviour of the players or the club any better or worse that the club's cheating plans may not have worked (as judged by you or anyone).  So why do you keep saying it? It must indicate something about your thinking on this issue, but I can't see what it is. 

I'm sure Satyr can speak for himself, but his statement is no more or less relevant than the alternative view espoused by others on this forum that they could see that the Essendon players were "juiced up" and noticeably bigger during the first half of that season. As you say, neither view is relevant to the issue. 

[daisycutter 29,892]

33 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I'm sure Satyr can speak for himself, but his statement is no more or less relevant than the alternative view espoused by others on this forum that they could see that the Essendon players were "juiced up" and noticeably bigger during the first half of that season. As you say, neither view is relevant to the issue. 

the view that tb4 had no benefit (debatable) on essendon players' performance, and the other view that tb4 should not be a banned substance (also debatable) are complete red herring arguments and have no impact on guilt or otherwise..

the fact is that tb4 was a known wada banned ped at the time essendon injected it to their players in a secretive and undeclared (to wada) fashion, and that the essendon players were contractually obliged to follow the wada drug protocol under threat of banning conditions. it is as simple as that. the rest is obfuscation.

the proportionality of guilt between the club officials and the players is an interesting discussion but does not reduce any guilt to zero. the players were ultimately treated leniently in wada punishment terms to effectively 1 playing season. it is also worth noting they rejected the much earlier reported opportunity that would have meant only missing 4 matches.  i'm sure cronulla players now feel vindicated they took the deal offered initially for cooperation.

added: oh, and incidentally this type of discussion should really be in the other thread

Edited September 20, 2016 by daisycutter

[Satyriconhome 10,880]

1 hour ago, sue said:

Why on earth do you keep repeating the sentence bolded above?  It is irrelevant to the discussion whether the drugs they took worked or failed to have the desired effect.   It doesn't make the behaviour of the players or the club any better or worse that the club's cheating plans may not have worked (as judged by you or anyone).  So why do you keep saying it? It must indicate something about your thinking on this issue, but I can't see what it is. 

The point I am trying to make, and others have said it may not be correct, which I can live with is

If the substance they allegedly were injected with was definitively proved to enhance performance, which I don't believe has, then they cheated

If, the scenario,  I believe is true, they were conned into taking a banned substance, banned because the drug agencies have no idea what they are doing and blanket ban everything, the lack of consistency across all sports in dealing with drugs in sport, shows a lack of faith in these agencies

Then they are guilty of nothing more than being stupid and naive, but still have had to wear the consequences of their actions or non actions

As Daisy said they were also supposedly offered a smaller ban, why, supposedly the drug agencies had a strong cae, why cut a deal, hence my jaundiced view of the agencies and the organisations such as the AFL

[sue 9,195]

8 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

The point I am trying to make, and others have said it may not be correct, which I can live with is

If the substance they allegedly were injected with was definitively proved to enhance performance, which I don't believe has, then they cheated

If, the scenario,  I believe is true, they were conned into taking a banned substance, banned because the drug agencies have no idea what they are doing and blanket ban everything, the lack of consistency across all sports in dealing with drugs in sport, shows a lack of faith in these agencies

Then they are guilty of nothing more than being stupid and naive, but still have had to wear the consequences of their actions or non actions

As Daisy said they were also supposedly offered a smaller ban, why, supposedly the drug agencies had a strong cae, why cut a deal, hence my jaundiced view of the agencies and the organisations such as the AFL

I think you are relentlessly missing the point.  It is one thing to make an argument that WADA shouldn't ban everything in sight, but them is the rules and I would argue there is no workable alternative.  But that is irrelevant to the discussion.  Just because the drug may not work, does not change the original intent which was to cheat. The degree of guilt to ascribe to the various parties at EFC (possibly naive young players, experience players, coaches, officials) can be argued.   You can't argue that just because their cheating failed, they didn't cheat.  But that is precisely what you are doing.

[The Song Formerly Known As 6,479]

People are still trying to hang a bloke that plays for us now.

get over it.

[SPC 3,571]

Gee, I came to this thread to read some positive news about him training and how he is going to slot into the side next year... Didn't realize that the whole drugs debate was still going on..

He is a Melbourne player now... move on!!

[daisycutter 29,892]

10 minutes ago, The Song Formerly Known As said:

People are still trying to hang a bloke that plays for us now.

get over it.

i think the thread is getting ot and not spefically about milkshake. much of what is being discussed should be in the other essendrug thread

[Satyriconhome 10,880]

1 hour ago, sue said:

I think you are relentlessly missing the point.  It is one thing to make an argument that WADA shouldn't ban everything in sight, but them is the rules and I would argue there is no workable alternative.  But that is irrelevant to the discussion.  Just because the drug may not work, does not change the original intent which was to cheat. The degree of guilt to ascribe to the various parties at EFC (possibly naive young players, experience players, coaches, officials) can be argued.   You can't argue that just because their cheating failed, they didn't cheat.  But that is precisely what you are doing.

Exactly, and you don't have to agree with it, like I don't agree with others, nobody knows who is right or wrong because of the whole schamozzle being handled the way it was,.

Only joined this thread to say whatever has happened in the past is exactly that and Melksham should be treated like the rest on the list, with a clean slate, but Colonel Blimp joined in with his non construcive two or three word posts.

Thankfully what followed was robust debate, others have said let's move on so let's do that

Used the name because that particular poster only seems to understand that particular type of post

Edited September 20, 2016 by Satyriconhome
Qualification

[sue 9,195]

Saty: I agree that we have to treat Melk as one of us, having done his time.  Unfortunately there sems no easy way of moving this debate back to the EFC Swiss thread. 

[Sir Why You Little 37,308]

1 hour ago, sue said:

Saty: I agree that we have to treat Melk as one of us, having done his time.  Unfortunately there sems no easy way of moving this debate back to the EFC Swiss thread. 

Why move it? He is a convicted drug cheat from Essendon who now i am supposed to clap and cheer....

[old demon me!!! 108]

20 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Why move it? He is a convicted drug cheat from Essendon who now i am supposed to clap and cheer....

Yes, yes you are !!! cant stand dees supporters who bag our own all the time, thats for the opposition to do, some people are never happy you hear it all the time even when we are winning they have to find something to have a go at , just enjoy the ride      and as for Jake and Micheal now they have done their time so let it go.

Oh that goes for all the players involved in this drama. 

[Sir Why You Little 37,308]

13 minutes ago, old demon me!!! said:

Yes, yes you are !!! cant stand dees supporters who bag our own all the time, thats for the opposition to do, some people are never happy you hear it all the time even when we are winning they have to find something to have a go at , just enjoy the ride      and as for Jake and Micheal now they have done their time so let it go.

Oh that goes for all the players involved in this drama. 

I don't have to support Drug Cheats. Those 2 young men knew exactly what they were doing. Pity they didn't get Life Bans, all of them. That would clean up the Sport in minutes. 

But then it was the AFL who gave Essendrug 36 hours to clean out the shelves, so they are almost as bad

[sue 9,195]

16 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I don't have to support Drug Cheats. Those 2 young men knew exactly what they were doing. Pity they didn't get Life Bans, all of them. That would clean up the Sport in minutes. 

But then it was the AFL who gave Essendrug 36 hours to clean out the shelves, so they are almost as bad

I agree that those 2 could well have known what they were doing. But the rules don't extend to life bans. They have done their time.  I may be a bit uncomfortable, but I'm no going to boo them when the AFL admin and the EFC organization really need booing.

[old demon me!!! 108]

Firstly i dont believe they are drug cheats in the Johnson,Armstrong,Jones,Powell way, they followed a club program in good faith and got it badly wrong does not mean they did it to cheat .

The club is guilty not these players who have paid a very big price for being to trusting but now they have served their sentence and everyone deserves a second chance but i know you wont change your mind and thats ok but when they are playing well for us next year and the years to come i will be happy and all this wont even enter my mind but i suppose you will sit there and not enjoy the moments.

Dont worry i will enjoy them enough for both of us.

 

 

 

[daisycutter 29,892]

8 minutes ago, old demon me!!! said:

Firstly i dont believe they are drug cheats in the Johnson,Armstrong,Jones,Powell way, they followed a club program in good faith and got it badly wrong does not mean they did it to cheat .

The club is guilty not these players who have paid a very big price for being to trusting but now they have served their sentence and everyone deserves a second chance but i know you wont change your mind and thats ok but when they are playing well for us next year and the years to come i will be happy and all this wont even enter my mind but i suppose you will sit there and not enjoy the moments.

Dont worry i will enjoy them enough for both of us.

 

hmm.....bad choice of words......in good faith to whom?  but i agree with, did the crime, did the time. everyone gets a 2nd chance and we move on (with or without hard-man wyl)